[Suggestion] ESF Tailgun

After multiple disappointing "dogfights" where I get chased around the entire map and eventually slaughtered by cert-hungry ESF maniacs, I arrived at a very disappointing revelation: There is no way to escape skilled enemy ESF pilots without dogfighting them.

I play a scout radar support role in ESFs and would REALLY like it if there was some way to shake enemies off my tail quickly and effectively to get back to team support. Immediately, I thought of a tailgun, and then I thought "how the crap would it be balanced?"

A tailgun could be placed in the "wing mount" slot even though it obviously isn't a wing-mounted weapon, but for the sake of balance and gameplay, this seems like the best choice.

I've thought of four possibilities for this unusual suggestion:

1. Position-Locked Tailgun
The player can switch to the tailgun crosshair and aim the back of the craft at the enemy while still being able to maneuver.

2. Turret-Based Tailgun
The player can switch to the tailgun optics and aim the gun independently from the craft.

3. Automatic Tailgun
Automatically fires at enemy aircraft that get too close.

4. Gunner Tailgun
Provides a small space for a second player to hop in and man the gun. Airborne teamwork at its finest.

yeah no but always fun to come up with things that will never be in the game. also if only your team mates would help you right i think what you need to be effective is a wing man to guard you or for the ground forces to help you with AA.

about the weapons listed:
1st gun would be just as useful to you as to the guy attacking you. no thanks
2nd gun would be impossible to use with a normal mouse and keyboard.
3rd gun would be just a spitfire and maybe a little too over or under powered
4th that would have to be a new aircraft entirely
if any of these were ever made it would be broken or crap.

the other thing is if ESF dog fighting wasn't crap [ie reverse maneuver all the time] maybe it would be better. but then again a stealth jet or something larger that could do the same thing as your scout ESF would be nice, but as it stands you will be **** out of luck buddy, unless your team helps you out

Working as intended. If you're not set up for fighting aircraft, be protected by your team-mates that are.

You want a third gun on ESF's?

One possibility is an automatic weapon, that would dominate I'd say for Skyknights wouldn't it?
IE those chasing you would likely Kill you with it, or while you had it no? As otherwise, that'd be pretty op wouldn't it?

As unless that Tail Gun out dps' or simply has better accuracy than a pilot with their Nose gun, it wouldn't matter would it?

(I know, I'm negative as hell, but honestly)

-- And I didn't reload before posting, Better replies are above mine.

The problem is that the ESF maneuverability is too slow compared to other ESF. You can't dodge fast enough to get out of sight or the crosshair. Any turn or dodge means your enemy can close the distance but not lose you. The only thing you can do is go into hover mode and use Hover Fighting (HF) and Reverse Maneuver (RM) to dodge out of the way and start combat. And it's my gripe with the entire ESF A2A system: You can only use HF and RM to combat each other. HF and RM are unintuitive and highly specific skills that the average player doesn't learn or won't learn with enough skill to be of any effect, so all A2A combat by average players has to be done in gank squads.

The solution? Give ESF enough maneuverability during normal flight so it's just as capable of fighting as a HF+RM using pilot. One such solution is to simply make the afterburner omnidirectional, and allow the button input to determine which direction you go rather than the stance of your turbines.

I have ideas for a few items that could help:
* Temporary floating mines and painfields deployed behind ESF. High damage against ESF but very visible and easy to dodge. So only useful when someone is close on your tail or in a air melee.
* New utility, A sort of missile that homes in on enemy aircraft and does 1 point of damage or no damage at all, but creates a blinding flash and EMP effect disabling NAR, HUD and draining afterburner. (maybe even reduce enemies speed/acceleration too).
Too avoid it being used offensively, it would also be fired behind the ESF so it only works when being chased by another aircraft.

i'd love for anti-skyknight weapons, like a backwards facing automatic gun.
if only to see them all rage like they did when reverse maneuver was altered slightly,
"I'M QUITTING FOREVA!"

After giving this game up and playing other stuff I've come to realize the problem is almost entirely with render distance. Think of the way all ballistics are gimped because of it. What's holding aircraft back from good A2A isn't their maneuverability, it's their speed, which they just can't increase because they'd be appearing and disappearing worse than they are currently. Give aircraft speed and proper inertia and you get proper A2A. As a bandaid to this piss poor system they could at least increase inertia on aircraft, that way the guy on your tail would actually have to work to stay there or he wouldn't be able to close range on you, and if you continued on a head to head charge the other guy couldn't just turn around, boost and be right on your *** for an easy kill.

OP: No to everything. Do like everyone else, get good, join a gank squad, or play another game with better flight mechanics. If you like A2G the way it's meant to be with incredible flight mechanics then check out Arma 3. Other than that War Thunder has great A2A, or do A2A in Arma with a mod. The air game in PS2 is pure cancer.

I'm not a pilot but a tail gun on a single seat fighter? really?

Having said that, I'm not a pilot because overcoming the problems of the odd control system in PS2 would only seem to lead to getting shot to bits by pro pilots.

As I play infantry I spent a long time getting shot to bits by pro infantry before I learned the ropes but I didn't have to contend with Resources for pulling weapons, or weapons so hard to master that they kept killing me.

I'd be tempted to give it another go if the controls were a bit more intuitive, but I still think an esf is what it is and the issue would seem to be the ability to fight the pros without having to fight your controls as well.

I believe he's presenting argument for a variant way to fight, engage, or at least deter, aircraft that are tailing one's own aircraft. The weapon would probably become one of the said ways to set oneself up for fighting aircraft in the OP's mind.

He did propose changing out the wing mounts - the fuel tanks or missiles - for the rear-directed weapon.

You've been proposing this "omnidirectional afterburner" for a long time now but have you given a thought as to how to implement it without making normal flight controls clunky?

New attachment, tail smoke.
Instead of flares, or FS or whatever, choose tail smoke to blind your pursuer.
Of course wed need smoke to block spotting for this to work, but the whole game needs that tbh so it would be worth the effort.

Not sure if this would work, for instance ther....erm...threat detection optics may serve to make this a pointless addition.

Yes i know the above is not what i was talking about, but the smoke effect is.

Give ESF secondary pilot.


... and 12 machine guns. (holes on wings)

How would they be clunky?
Press W and shift: Afterburn forwards
Press C and shift: Afterburn downwards
Press S and shift, afterburn backwards for an emergency brake or flying backwards
Press W and space, afterburn diagonally forwards and upwards, etc etc.

It's intuitive and easy to remember, doesn't require a specific speed an turbine angle (which isn't even visible on the Scythe) and learned in an instant. Additionally it offers a near limitless amount of maneuvers to be pulled off during both hover mode and normal flight, and allows for much more dynamic transitions between both styles of combat, besides ofcourse that normal flight will actually be useful in combat.

add yaw to the mouse as an option
and allow straffing via buttonpress (would allow easier zigzaging both in chase and hovermode) ..

LOL WAT? didnt even read post just read title and fell out my chair laughing.

It would have the opposite effect. The reason normal flight mode works in other games is because planes can't move like infantry. The only way to introduce real dogfighting to this game is to keep aircraft from turning in place and instantly being on someone's tail. Everything needs to take longer, turning, accelerating, braking.... everything. This would also allow G2A to more easily transition to auto-cannons and away from lock-ons and flak. Adding additional quick movement to ESF will only make the problem worse.

Air combat is ruined because people sit there and control/space just like infantry combat is ruined because people A/D constantly. ESF don't need another direction to juke in a duel, they need proper physics to have proper air combat.

The reason normal flight mode doesn't work in PS2, is because the speed with which you can turn out of your opponents vision isn't fast enough. Nothing more, nothing less.
The ability to turn in place, which is nothing more than helicopter functionality, doesn't change anything about normal flight. At worst it simply gives you a better way to turn (as it is now). But even before people discovered that the ability to turn in place was better, dogfights weren't exactly super-interesting. They turned into circle-fights, where both teams were trying to turn faster and get a look at the opponent to get a shot or two in, which could take eternity. Most of these circle-battles ended because another ESF came along.

Proposing a change that lets aircraft turn fast enough to get out of their opponent's field of fire would just lead to another circle jerk, a race to see who can turn faster. What you're proposing isn't a solution.

Look at the position current noobs find themselves in. If there's an enemy ESF within a few hundred meters then you're locked in to a fight. At 300-400m you'll die if you try to run. If you fly head to head and keep going he'll just turn on a dime, boost, and be right on your tail, and again you're dead. If you're running and manage to shake him for a second with some fancy flying, it doesn't matter because he can correct his course instantly. If he boosts right past you it doesn't matter because he can instantly correct things and be immediately back on you. Shaking a tail is near impossible and adding more turning isn't the answer. The answer is making flight mechanics more realistic, so it takes effort and thought to stay on someone's tail. If you're too close and can't react to his turn in time then you'll overshoot his path and he'll get away. If you go head to head and he doesn't reverse maneuver to duel but instead keeps flying, then you won't be able to turn around and boost to catch up in time. This means that instead of just flying at eachother and reacting, the attacker should have altitude and maneuver to the rear of his opponent to ensure a kill. If you're both in a duel and you see him boost past, he won't have the momentum to get away unless the attacker reacts slowly. The controls in the game aren't really the problem, it's lack of inertia and lack of gravity that make all fights turn in to this ******** RM/HF control/space **** that we have.

No it wouldn't. Because rather than a circle being the fastest and only way to get a bead on your opponent, you would have ways to brake, turn and dodge in a variety of ways, both during normal flight and hover mode. Also because of the limited fuel capacity it would depend on how, when and where you use it, rather than the constant turn that people used in the past.

This is regardless of what skill level you have, because as I already mentioned the air-game doesn't allow for enough normal-flight maneuverability to escape anyone's vision or crosshair.

Which is only possible with... Hover fighting! And if you change the flight maneuvers possible so that normal flight is combat-worthy, this doesn't happen anymore!

Again, this counts for everyone, regardless of skill level, as long as you don't use hover mode. And that's what I'm trying to change. Repeating how it is currently doesn't mean my idea to change the current status won't work.

More maneuverability isn't the solution. Whether it's hover fighting or boosting around in new directions, it doesn't change the problem, which is once you're within a few hundred meters you're stuck in this little Skyknight duel. Give the defender more maneuverability to move quicker to get out of enemy crosshairs and you're giving the shooter more maneuverability to keep the target in crosshairs. All you're really doing is adding quicker movements to a close range fight and arguably raising the skill ceiling even higher, as targets will be that much harder to hit.

You're delusional. I gave an example of how current mechanics limit what you might do in normal flight. How will giving more maneuverability to the attacker in this situation be an improvement over current mechanics? The example of flying past someone in a hover and booking it still wouldn't be an option. Losing a tail for a second with an unexpected turn still wouldn't be an option. There still wouldn't be any options but die in a duel or die faster by trying to run. You'd still be stuck in some control/space abomination of air combat with the addition of A/D movement. Your heart's in the right place, but this would without question raise the skill ceiling.