[Suggestion] ESF Pilot response review to anti air updates

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by MyBroodmother, Jun 25, 2022.

  1. VV4LL3

    @Exileant

    Demi has made some good input in the past -- though I may not agree with them all the time, there have been on few occasion where they made a good point.

    I think everyone has their mind in the right place for the most part. Some people on the forums are habitual "nay-sayers" , I just give my attention to those that are constructive. They stay clear of the ad-hominen, and use anecdotal where data is lacking.

    Let's focus on that.
    • Up x 1
  2. Exileant

    o_O That is where we differ. I know for a fact many go well beyond a simple "Nay" and seek to misdirect, form fake problems and use them as a smoke screen so they can have an advantage. It is a trick as old as Online Gaming itself. VV4LL3, if you had seen the state of V.S..... It was worse than N.S.O. is right now.... AND THEY HAD ABILITIES. :confused: Demi was one of the ones STILL spouting V.S. was over powered after they had been Nerfed PAST sanity. You also have to remember, PlayStation has a quarter of your game. All of the problems, NONE of the solutions. Just wave after wave of updates that gave us new suit skins and buffs to N.C. or T.R.

    ;) You have to be willing to give both attention, because if you do not, silence can easily be confused with agreement by those who make the decisions, thanks to them not actually playing or in many cases caring. (I tend to give too much attention at times to really DRILL in the fact that something is not right, but we all have flaws. Ha!) :p While I absolutely HAD to point out his error because it was too delicious, it will go no further because as you said; it would not be constructive beyond that.
    • Up x 1
  3. Demigan

    Not really:
    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps2/index.php?threads/dervish-chimera-ai-modules.258793/page-2

    You didnt even use the word "skimmer" there:
    Also we didnt really discuss anything in that thread.

    And the threads "Dervish is backwards" and "Dervish resistance" I didnt even participate, which are the only places you use the word "skimmer". Its kind of stupid to say I "accuse" you of makiny up the word "skimmer" when I didnt even participate in the threads where you used it.

    (Note that I used search-on-page functions, I did not bother re-reading his eyesores).

    Also do you know why for example one of the Harasser Q-spot callouts happens to be about spotting transports? Its unfortunate that I cannot find the pre-release article/posts they made (in 2013) about its intended goal, because unlike you I read that stuff and it focused on transport and 3-man teams more than the armored assault buggy they also named it (its a quick mention in the patchnotes).

    So once again a weird post that leads with personal attacks, strawmanning and hallucinations about the past and what things are supposed to do.
  4. Johannes Kaiser

    True story. Pulling a Burster MAX is often enough to have the enemy air suddenly be absent as soon as you leave the spawn room. Effective deterrent indeed. Annoyingly, when switching back the air usually also smells this and returns, it's both slightly suspicious and pretty hilarious.
    • Up x 1
  5. Exileant

    o_O On Genudine they stick around unless there is more than one because everyone finally realized the screen shake and Heat distortions have no real affect on the attitude of your aircraft. They simply spot and aim just under the marker. For even a max, the explosive round and Shotgun options on E.S.F.'s are enough to obliterate you in one clip and swiftly, well before Bursters can bring a plane down. This goes triple for a Liberator... :eek: A CAS30? It is like, that Liberator better be on FIRE before you make the terrible decision to make your stand.... :( (And if they tag you in the head with even a couple of rounds of it; which it can EASILY do thanks to firing 2 bullets at a time, one high and one low, then scattering them all like a shotgun, sometimes not even that will save you if you are in the open.)

    ;) There is a reason they know when to come back sadly. I have made a loooot of friends on my N.S.O. all of them on different factions. I have found out over population usually goes hand in hand with experienced groups that actually call out over faction, shout, or over communications via microphones. As N.S.O. is rare that I get placed on a team that does this with any consistence. (I am usually the only one, and I have do do it over SHOUT because N.S.O.'s link to faction often breaks.) To counter such a disadvantage, I use P.S.N. to contact friends when I fly so I usually get updates on the enemy locations whether A.A. is strong in an area and where I am free to farm for a little bit and when I need to vacate the area thanks to the enemy chat buzzing about calling air defenses. (As a side note, you also can tell which E.S.F. is squealing when they are not using Microphones. The ones that hit the afterburner and dodge then all of a sudden just fly straight for a little while those are the ones running their mouths, and you need to not be where you were, even if you manage to kill it, because it will be back and when it does it will usually bring friends, especially if you were alone....)

    :D So basically, if someone told you to pull a max and you did so, the Aircraft may have already been warned, and those few hits you got in on them was signal for EVERYONE to move on leaving you stranded as A.A. and able to do next to nothing against infantry, until you have enough to swap freely. (A.A. Baiting; if done in a 4 to 8 person group you can farm all day long.) There is a much easier albeit more expensive and more direct way to get your information which leads to maaaaany maaaaany other things if you think outside the box a bit.
    • Up x 1
  6. MonnyMoony


    Air deterrence is silly for exactly this reason.

    You pull AA max - and the air sods off. So you are then left with a 450 nanite paperweight, or switch to a different weapon type to contribute to the fight in a different way - only for air to come back a few minutes later and either take you out, or make you switch back to AA, only for it to sod off again - rinse and repeat.

    This is boring and unrewarding. It could be argued that you are performing a valuable service for your team mates - but the problem is, the game primarily rewards kills, not team play.

    Either make AA weapons a true counter to air so that you at least have a good chance of getting kills - or give better rewards for teamplay, air deterrence etc.

    It says a lot when AV main guns on tanks are often better at killing air than dedicated AA platforms.
    • Up x 2
  7. Snow Sheltie

    Story Time; At the game's launch, every single AA option was so terrible that it did virtually nothing to even deter, let alone kill aircraft.
    -ESFs could outright kill skyguard lightnings by hovering mere feet in front of them and firing all their rockets into the frontal armor of the tank and survive the encounter.
    -Burster maxes had a similar story
    -Static AA guns had a similar story
    -AA Launchers were actually programmed in the game so that every third rocket was guaranteed to NOT hit whatever they were targeting. I don't know what idiot came up with that idea and (more importantly) what idiot approved it.

    These issues were eventually addressed - 6 bloody months after the game's launch! My go-to AA platform was actually the vanguard because the cannon could one-hit KO ESFs and there were no shortage of lazy pilots who would hover slow and low which makes for an easy kill.
    ___________________________________
    I haven't touched the game since 2018 and nothing I've seen since my departure has convinced me this game is worth the effort of playing anymore, so I ask the question to anyone here; Is the AA complaint more a case of lone-wolves vs lone-wolves or an actual issue of tweaks to anti air-and aircraft armament effectiveness? Or could it be another reason? Has general teamwork and C&C among players deteriorated to the point where nobody is able to coordinate aircraft or AA nests anymore? Is this just the continuation of the never-ending balance of power? A combination of all of the above?

    The last time I played ESFs were only a threat to a group who failed to have some sort of AA on standby and the liberators were annoying as hell due to a combination of speed, good agility, heavy armor, and heavy firepower but a pair of skyguards, bursters, or launchers was usually enough to 'encourage' the liberators to go find easier targets.
  8. Demigan

    They were adressed, but not properly.

    Burster MAX's for example went from "we dont render to EAF until they get into less than 30m but they can still find and kill us before it becomes a genuine threat" to "if you are lucky, you can scare an ESF away before he kills you".

    The developers even after the "adressing" were and still are very clear: G2A is a deterrence, the only weapon set that does deterrence. And because of that these weapons are deliberately underpowered in order for them to deter, not kill.


    This is a problem where G2A has always required teamwork to survive aircraft attacks and even more teamwork to actually kill the aircraft. In the meantime said aircraft require zero teamwork whatsoever to kill anything on the ground. Even a Skyguard can be killed solo by utilizing the aircraft's strengths.

    There is also a massive disparity in how survivable a situation is. A ground unit under air attack will almost automatically die to the aircraft without either a specific loadout or specific support units.
    Aircraft in the meantime can survive any G2A attack, even small-scale coordinated ones, regardless of them picking the worst loadout and having no support whatsoever. The only exceptions are against weapons that are specifically not designed to combat aircraft but can OHK them (tank cannons with limited elevation).

    The difference between weapon effectiveness of ground units compared to air is also massive. The AI-oriented weapons like the Zepher and Rocketpods are all very powerful against vehicles, in the meantime 95% of the ground weapons do not have the accuracy, elevation, DPS and/or muzzle velocity to truly be effective against aircraft. Even the dedicated G2A weapons that are considered weak against ground units still kill more ground vehicles than they do the actual targets they are supposed to attack. And few people use dedicated G2A weapons against ground units unless out of desperation.

    This is about a design choice that was never going to work. A design choice that deliberately elevated aircraft above the rest as it had only deterrents to fear from the ground, which had the developer stated goal of making aircraft the only true counter to aircraft in an attempt to get more players to fly. Its not a good idea to give aircraft the unique position that no ground unit can truly threaten it with dedicated AA weapons, only move them away to another area.

    The balance of power, requirements for loadout choices, the core design idea of deterrents, requirements for teamwork on one side and the absence on the other, lack of versatility of one side and overversatility of the other and the differences in vulnerability are all reasons why this is a big problem. This has nothing to do with players not coordinating, even if you want to say it is then its still broken that aircraft dont need to coordinate at all to be more effective.

    The only real solution: get rid of deterrence weapons. Make them all fully killing weapons like every other weapon in the game is against their counter and make them versatile enough that aircraft can expect them to be there at any fight before they arrive. For tanks and infantry its par of the course to fight their dedicated counters and it should be par of the course for aircraft too.
    Naturally that means toning down the skillfloor reduction methods like overlarge flak detection radius and spray&pray techniques. It also means that aircraft would now face the same threats that they themselves pose: you might get killed before you escape by one person with a dedicated weapon against you.

    A simple example: somewhat altered A2A noseguns on a Lightning would both be skillful but not overpowered in any way. Its range would be limited by how many shots you can land effectively at different ranges. It could now effectively "flank" hovering aircraft and murder them without them escaping (which just goes to show how bad G2A is, you can literally drive up under their rear and open fire at point blank with any dedicated G2A weapon and the aircraft is GUARANTEED to survive unless the pilot doesnt respond).

    Giving MBT's access to main gun G2A weapons would also be a big help. As would laser-guided missiles, rockets with small flak detonation range, the ability for vehicles to switch loadouts after buying (ANT's could be used for this) etc.
    • Up x 2
  9. Exileant

    o_O I heard that at one point, Bursters detonated their rounds against everything and that they were amazing back then, but maybe that was just a rumor.

    Nothing has really changed for Maxes. Stand out in the open with a pilot that know how to flip their E.S.F. around like a drone and aim to match, see how long you last.... They will get as close as C4 distance of you and gun you down on Genudine. (Someone actually saved me with C4 because a Mosquito flew around the base and popped up just behind me while I was standing on a air resupply pad. They ignored the L.A. and that was the ONLY time Ablation and Seraph saved my life. The second I heard the Banshee in my ear, I panic popped my shield. With the spirit of "K.O. out of NOWHERE" a Light Assault flew over me an bounced off its tail, a second later, BOOM! Thanks to the shield being up I almost died from the friendly explosion; which made me remember just how useless the thing is.....) It was thing of terrible beauty.) :confused: And you are not going to encourage a Liberator to do a dang thing anymore unless you have some E.S.F.s up there. As you said, their armor is THICK and on Genudine, pilots have gotten good enough to fly them like E.S.F. They practice by flying them inverted and following roads between trees........................ (I was good, and could fly them inverted so my underside was always facing a threat, but I never even took the time to consider that following roads at nearly full speed in this position could be done. Some nut started this, and now it is the norm.... o_O Their attack runs come so fast and so low now, combined with the games Doppler Effect on sound, you usually think it is a Sunderer or building because there is no daylight between them and the ground, and their engine fire is no visible at full speed from the front. When the ground is packed with A.A. they do not stop, They drain their CAS30 about 50 meters out, Pull up a bit, Dalton you and hug the nearest mountain and slingshot over leaving you either dead or on fire. :( If you are not, because they have taken VERY little A.A. from even 5 or 6 turrets pointed at them due to the speed of this strike they can easily come right back and finish the job. Unluckily for you and sadly for them, something else on the ground usually claims the kill if they do not get you in that first pass. The ones that do not care whether they get the kill, can easily last an entire 3 hour alert. Others will give you a TINY window to do some damage and slow enough for them swap and fire a second Dalton into you, and end you. That is usually no where near enough time to kill them unless 3 average A.A. turrets, or 2 GIFTED GUNNERS who land ALL of their shots with a ranger or Skyguard lay into it at the same time.)

    o_O About the only thing that used to be able to SOMEWHAT challenge them, was a Cloaking A.N.T. because they could vanish from sight as they started their run, the smart ones would pull off, but you still had some who would risk it and spray the area and try to get you with just the Dalton. Those developed the ability to see the big glass box and nail you with no problem if you to tried to de-cloak and fight back. Others would simply follow the noise you made until you ran out of cloak at which point you were had without backup or decent cover. :D I used to lead them into traps so me and a Skyguard could finish them. It was VERY hard to drop one on your own, but it could be done if you were skilled enough. That is gone now though. Liberators do what they want, when they want, in the position they want.
    • Up x 1
  10. MonnyMoony


    Which in of itself isn't an issue - but the game should give rewards for people using a weapon that fulfils this role. Like I state, the whole reward system is centred around kills - so what good are weapons that only deter? There is a mismatch between weapon design an the reward system.

    If air truly is a deterrence, then units fulfilling that role should be given better survivability. It's crazy that a dual AA max can only deter air - yet an ESF can one clip the AA Max from full health in under a second. Perhaps AA deterrence weapons should come with in-built shields or armour that gives additional protection against A2G weapons.

    It's also silly that air deterrence platforms are almost defenceless against other units. Hence my past suggestion for a secondary shoulder mounted Max weapon option. In effect a Max sidearm. At least that way the AA Max could defend itself in a limited capacity whilst fulfilling it's air deterrence role. AA maxes give up almost all capability against other units to fulfill their niche - no other unit in the game does this so severely.
  11. LodeTria

    It's bad players expecting a low skill weapon (flak) to deal as much damage as a higher skilled one (AP rounds or A2A noseguns).
    They won't admit that though, and somehow think flak is a skillful weapon, lol.
  12. UberNoob1337101

    Ye, and A2G with AoE damage so high even players who are far off target can go on killstreaks is the pinnacle of skill LMAO.
    • Up x 2
  13. Demigan

    It actually is still an issue even if you fix the reward system, as G2A design does not fit in with the rest of the game design. A MilSim often has everyone play a supporting role to one another. But G2A is the only tool that is both support and needs support from others to fulfill its role completely. As a single G2A unit is unable to effectively deter for a larger area than a small 1-12 fight, at which point its also very easily destroyed by both the opposing ground units and one moment can also let the air kill the G2A unit, not even considering aircraft other than the ESF which can absolutely tank it and kill it right back.

    G2A currently fits as well in PS2 as having players play a game of sudoku to open and close doors with a tool that takes the main weapon slot. Despite how valuable it can be its so limiting and so out of place within the rest of the game it will never fit.
  14. Demigan

    No absolutely not. Its being handed only low-skill weapons to do a dedicated job and then gimping those weapons so much that they arent really useful or enjoyable. Then when people point that out and ask for buffs so they can actually kill (even if it also means nerfs to the low-skill so its harder) its suddenly a problem.

    The skill of flak comes from overcoming its DPS limitations. I used positioning, knowledge of how the "skilled" pilots would fly after a ground attack and surprise to increase the chance of pilots dying to me.
    Ofcourse most people focus on the biggest problem: the lack of a reward for using flak. Even if you park just underneath a hovering aircraft (ANY aircraft) and open up into its rear (or any direction) with the strongest G2A weapon available the aircraft is GUARANTEED to survive, as long as they react. Its not just the G2A that has a low skillfloor, the skillfloor for surviving them once you can do basic flight is also practically nil. "Aim at horizon, hit W, if you have afterburners use it".
    All that does not mean that players havent also pointed to the low skillfloor and asked for it to be increased so they can get the power they need in return. Smaller COF for the flak so its less lenient with where you lead, smaller flak detection range, I also add things like alternatives for flak to operate and entirely different G2A weapons altogether. Like access to somewhat altered A2A noseguns on ground units like the Lightning or creating a new G2A auto-canon based on an existing design (like the Viper or Saron).

    Ofcourse bad players wont admit that though, they'll just accuse all people asking for G2A changes of being bad and wanting low-skill powerful tools.
    • Up x 2
  15. Snow Sheltie

    I recall the annoyance of flak's overall range being reduced before I stopped and how irritating it was but my reasoning was a little different. It wasn't so much the problem of the reduction itself but the fact that there was absolutely no changes in the visual department to telegraph to the user what the overall range was. There was no burst of flak at the tail end of the range, no holographic data showing where the range of the flak started and stopped, no nothing. It turned into a game of spam a lot at that dot in the sky and hope you either hit something or they wander in just close enough to take damage.

    I honestly couldn't recall having many serious issues involving air spam during my gameplay. Issues I've had over the years (after the initial months) were often far more ground-based.
    You had the infamous "ZOE MAX" spam when those things were OP as hell for 4 (or was it 6?) months with the devs openly claiming it wasn't a problem. (That update and the subsequent nerf obliterated the Vanu on Watterson as a viable fighting force as spamming maxes became their only strategy and they had nothing to fall back to when their only toy wasn't as effective anymore).
    There was also the never-ending issues around harassers and I don't think the devs were ever able to tweak those things to balance nicely in the game.
    Aircraft did become periodic nuisances on a regular basis but I also had one significant advantage; I had a competent outfit regularly operating 1-2 platoons daily, which meant that, as a commander, I usually had little trouble drumming up a few volunteers to pull AA for a bit to convince the hotshots in the air to go bug somebody else for a while. Hell, I often pulled the role as well since it allowed me to observe and command the battle from afar.
    If nothing else, I had more trouble involving friendly aircraft than hostile, mainly because they have such an insanely high level of self-preservation compared to even the average harasser crew that getting them to even provide minuscule air cover at or near a heavily contested base is equivalent to pulling teeth.

    Bear in mind everything I mentioned here is from a CO's perspective. I despised lone-wolfing in this game and quite literally the only thing that kept me playing was the C&C element that no other game can provide in a first person shooter. Once daybreak implemented updates that made it impossible to play as a CO, I quit.
  16. MonnyMoony

    People have been asking for higher skill, no flak but higher direct damage AA weapons (especially on Maxes) almost since launch.
    • Up x 4
  17. Exileant

    :confused: They have been begging for both. Way back when the issues with spam were because the base turrets had no set range, so anything even 2 bases over could get pummeled. I was there for those dark days Snow spoke of. ;) Thankfully, that all ended when they made it to where Base A.A.'s went no further than a base away, and we were left with a new problem. A.A. without overwhelming numbers is rather weak.

    o_O Flak cannons are a high skill weapon, newbies CANNOT shoot them worth spit... Especially at long range, and for those fighters using 8X and a pair or hornets with the Infinite Range Nose Cannon available to ALL E.S.F.s except the Dervish I believe, it is something that will ensure a moderately swift death.... :confused: I can show you some videos where Mosquitos, Reavers and even some Scythes, dog even A.A. turrets to death over here at EITHER range....

    ;) I still maintain Rangers and Skyguards are balanced toward E.S.F.s, just not against Liberators. Liberators have far, FAR too much, firepower at their disposal to be able to drink 2 full clips from a Ranger.... Especially from a solo standpoint.
    • Up x 1
  18. Demigan

    Even at the "height" of the Aspis AA turret days it struggled at killing aircraft at AMP stations where you hacked the turret and waited for damaged aircraft to land. At 300m (about a hex) it struggled to consistently hit a stationary ESF more than 50% of the time, needing more than one full heat capacity to actually kill anything even with 100% accuracy. Also does anyone of you people know that the maximum range is the render range? That means 3 hexes range at maximum, at best the next base over.

    "Pummeling" was not what those weapons did. The words "tickling", "scratching" and "annoying" come to mind. Although the pilots managed to get a lot out of them. A stronger Fire Suppression to deal with scratch damage and nanite auto repair level 1 if you used an engi to deal with scratch damage (and to reduce the amount of bailassaults).

    Even the turrets on AMP stations when manned were killed more often by the aircraft they were supposed to kill than the other way around. But oooooh AMP stations were "death zones" to aircraft ofcourse and you "couldnt operate within 2 bases distance" of an AMP station ofcourse... because reasons...


    "Thankfully". This kind of self-indulgent fantasy about reality is exactly why we cant have a good game. It has nerfed the Aspis turrets to even more useless than they already were.

    Take another kick at people you know nothing about why dont you. You dont even realize the accuracy rate of flak weapons do you? At long range the accuracy goes down so fast that stationary targets become hard to hit consistently with perfect accuracy, let alone an aircraft that can change direction and fly fast enough that the slow moving flak will fly way off-target if you have perfect leading skills. Your only choice on an ESF that does a serpentine is to try to saturate the area. That isnt necessary ofcourse so we see the pilots just move in straight lines instead because the damage output+accuracy has TTK's in the "come back in 10 minutes" range.


    How do you maintain that? You barely even TOUCH skyguards or other flak.
    • Up x 1
  19. MonnyMoony


    The thing is - they wouldn't even need to create a new weapon.

    Just give Bursters a "no flak damage" ammo option that only does direct damage, but tightens the cone of fire and multiplies the rate of fire.

    Or alternatively, give Gorgon's an AA ammo option - that reduces the Gorgon's effectiveness against Vehicles and infantry - but gives better direct damage against aircraft.

    They could even do an ammo/barrel combo that achieves this if they wanted to make more DBC.

    I was disappointed when the armoury update dropped and there was absolutely nothing in it for maxes. It was a missed opportunity.
  20. Demigan

    You can do more. For example a flak explosion is currently triggered differently than the on-contact explosion of regular shells and rocketlaunchers. So you could extend the flak activation range:
    - within (random number) 200m the flak does not activate and you need to directly hit the target.
    - if the shot hits within 200m, it deals direct damage and explosion damage, which aircraft have lower resistances to than flak explosions to simulate the projectile penetrating and exploding inside.
    - beyond that range the flak activates and detonates when it enters the range. This range would be reduced from the whopping 8m it has now.
    - additionally an old system is used for the flak activation: flak will not explode immediately as it enters flak detection range
    but instead explode the moment its range to an aircraft increases, meaning you can still hit them directly and land shots closer to the aircraft for more damage.
    • Up x 1