[Suggestion] ESF Pilot response review to anti air updates

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by MyBroodmother, Jun 25, 2022.

  1. MonnyMoony

    Air should be made more focussed.
    • ESF should be primarily an air to air unit.
    • Liberarator should be primarily an anti vehicle unit (a flying tank if you will).
    • Valk should be an anti infantry gunship/fast infantry transport.
    • Gal should be a large infantry transport, with point defense/covering fire weapons
    The problem with ESFs is, that they are just too general purpose. They can farm infantry with impunity - and in the hands of a good pilot, can also hold their own against vehicles and other aircraft because they give up little capability when they fit AI weapons.
    • Up x 3
  2. Demigan

    Hey I wonder what the resistances to small-arms are for ESF.
    75% damage resistance? Whoops!
    And what about accuracy? Something like the Vortek which is relatively inaccurate for an A2A weapon has a set COF of 0.5, most weapons will surpass that within 5 or 6 shots.

    You are also expecting that everyone has the time to notice, turn and fight the ESF without repercussions from say the ground forces they are fighting.
    Yell chat: "What are you doing?"
    "We are shooting an ESF, hold on!"
    "Allright we'll stop attacking for a moment and not exploit all those people looking away from us!"

    Aircraft are uniquely capable of getting in somewhere, blowing something up and then getting out before too many people even know they are there. And while the biased pilots think that everyone and their dog can instantly see and shoot them when they turn a corner the truth is different. Infantry works hard to try and not get killed as almost anything CAN kill them. So most infantry has a large portion of their world obscured by cover of some sort, making it hard to find and shoot ESF with the supposed hundreds of players.

    Said by someone who never really used G2A I see. These "goldfish stroke victims" are doing their job. They cannot focus on a single target constantly, they have to scan the sky and what you may not realize it takes effort to scan every bit of sky above you properly.

    Also talking about Goldfish with strokes, A2G pilots will generally attack from the same directions at the same height over an over again, using the same escape routes. One of the reasons I was somewhat successful (top 5% in aircraft murder I believe?) With the Skyguard was because I would park myself on the escape routes and finish off damaged aircraft when they least expected it. Because these Goldfish would rarely ever have the mental capacity to stop using their escape route and because for 99% of the cases just hitting afterburner is enough to survive this works. Unfortunately it is also rife with conditions: you need to leave your allies and are vulnerable to anything that tries to attack you, the aircraft have to be damaged enough by your allies or they'll escape and you have to position yourself in specific ways that make vengeance kills by enemy aircraft (and ground) easy if they return and dont fly at you directly.

    Pilots tend to be as uninformed as you, using bias and nonsense to justify themselves.
    • Up x 3
  3. JibbaJabba

    LOL Demigan. :D :D
  4. Exileant

    The game is balanced when it comes to E.S.F.s. :D IT IS A JET, As such, IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO BE EFFECTIVE WITH ANYTHING SO LONG AS THE PILOT HAS SKILL. Hahahaha! They are already focused how you pointed out as well. :( The only one that is not is the Dervish. It is too slow and lumbering to truly dogfight, and for me is too hard to control to truly be an accurate Ground Pounder. It is BECAUSE E.S.F.s are versatile their armor against A.A. is weaker so every time they get in close or hold still in order to wreak havoc they run the risk of dying unless they are built with only a Nose Cannon, at which point, their kill time is waaaaaay longer. o_O Granted, they can still do a looooot of damage, but they only way they are going to kill you is if you are missing them with your A.A. weapon.

    :( The only Aircraft that does not have a direct counter (that uses Nanites) is the Liberator. There is no ground vehicle that is highly mobile, has a dedicated Anti-Air turret that can in a pinch be used against ground targets, a pilot controlled straight line weapon and a general purpose turret that can equip either A.A. or A.G. This is why I suggested in other threads that the A.N.T. should be made into such a Vehicle. The Mining lasers should be able to do a lot of damage however since there is no way it is going to be able to use it against a Liberator the way a Liberator can use a CAS30 against a ground target, perhaps give the thing 2 side by side turrets near on the rear corners of the A.N.T. where the passengers sit; with access to only Siren/Dingos and Ranger behind the main cannon as this will focus it as a A.A. platform and help with the balance of unchecked Solo Liberators.;)
    • Up x 1
  5. VV4LL3

    The Dervish "was" supposed to be the counter to the Liberator and "other large air targets" (presumably Bastions?) with the large top gun DV-XAT ... which is why it has no ground angles (https://planetside.fandom.com/wiki/DV-XAT)...

    Unfortunately, again *sighs* the projectile itself is "light based" but for some reason travels at the speed of molasses, and the dervish top-down attack surface is significantly larger than any other aircraft. Combined with the aforementioned slow and cumbersome handling, it, yet again, is a perfect example of wasted NSO potential.

    Did you know when it was on the test server, the nose gun DV-XE (https://planetside.fandom.com/wiki/DV-XE) was maneuverable? Was a bug apparently though. I think that would have helped the platform out a little.. but considering how slow it is, a Valk or Battle Gal easily outperforms the Dervish on virtually all fronts. It takes two shots from a Lib to smoke a dervish, which isn't hard since it is literally a massive bullseye. Sure, you could fly sideways, then you're cutting off 50% of your gunners attack angle and the Lib just turns belly sideways and smokes you again. The entire platform is a joke.

    Here's the Introduction to the Dervish (try not to laugh too hard): https://www.planetside2.com/news/dervish-heavy-fighter-teaser

    Here's the forum & my input when it came out: https://forums.daybreakgames.com/ps2/index.php?threads/the-dervish-heavy-fighter.256830/page-4

    • Up x 2
  6. MyBroodmother

    Ok so I've been called an ignorant elitist for liking my spaceships. Got it. I don't play tank and only play infantry because I'm good at the game and clearly hold myself higher then everyone else.

    I actually took latency into play SG> ESF every time. You see flak rounds hit you and you either maneuver if you didn't lag out or die. The infantry think the blinding effect is funny. (I do play infantry btw. its dumb we have infinite rockets/explosives) Biased? yes because these are opinions. Want unbiased? too bad. I am here to tell DBG/rogue planet that anti air as ESF interaction is not fun. I am not a ground farmer. I just want my bombs to actually hit hard enough to make a Flak unit care. However I DO NOT want to be able to farm infantry better.
  7. Demigan

    No you have been called elitist mainly for pretending that any experience that isnt from a pilot doesnt matter, for both marginalizing and being ignorant on the effect you have on others and for thinking its OK to ask for buffs without considering the full effect beyond "me kill stuff now".

    But sure play the victim because "you just like your spaceships and oh where does all this hate come from I have no idea!"
    • Up x 2
  8. MyBroodmother

    I'm not arguing with you anymore demi. You have made my point with the hate and the bullying the main point of the post. Devs need to stand up to players like you. You have made it about TTK and SG but the focal point of the post was the attitude and consequences of hatred towards pilots that is like none other.
  9. JibbaJabba

    Ask yourself why, and don't let yourself lie when you answer.
    • Up x 1
  10. MyBroodmother

    It really is the base design. I'm guilty of once and while ground pounding when there are no air targets. You guys have like no AA turrets which would be on every base. There is no cover for you guys to run from. That is not the plane. Further the spawn system makes it easy for a tank or plane to camp points. It isn't soley the esf. I know why. Maybe being empathetic is what you want but I get too many people cussing out my air outfits for just being new pilots.
  11. JibbaJabba

    It's imbalanced. it just is.

    You play the game for a while you'll start hating the stuff that kills you. Keep playing (and especially trying out that stuff) and you identify your biases and let go of most of it.

    Eventually though you realize that there really are imbalances in the game. It's impossible to get perfect so that's just a fact.

    A2G is once such imbalance. MAXes are a mess. The cloak I think is the most egregious one. There are others. Certain guns in the infantry weapon lineup too.

    Noobs get a free pass. They need the HESH lightning (for example) to survive and win an "engagement" with a vet. They don't know it's imbalanced. But... Once you know the imbalances you have to make a choice: Do I arbitrage or exploit them? Or do I try to avoid them for sportsmanship? Being a long time vet I generally try to avoid them.

    But I'll not step up on some high horse. I've been known to take a MAX on an AI bender. To gratuitously farm a biolab with an LA. And yes, to A2G farm. But here's the kicker: I KNOW this stuff is imbalanced. and not fair. So I kinda keep my mouth shut about it. And I don't really catch a lot of hate.

    If you NEED to do this stuff, then do it. Have fun. I won't judge. I just don't really want to hear about it from you.

    What will trigger people: If you use one of these obviously imbalanced spots in the game and then complain. Complain that you get hate. Complain that it's really not imbalanced at all and everyone is unfair or too dumb to know. Complain when some counter is introduced that interferes with this unsportsman gameplay you've engaged in.

    The A2G vs G2A is imbalanced. It just is.

    And you use it. And then you complain about it.

    So that's why you get that hate.
    • Up x 3
  12. MyBroodmother

    If you guys want how about we give esfs pelters instead of hellfires breakers or whatever the vanu have and get rid of the esf nose guns for a2g? I wouldn't care but I want to be able to fight back vs aa.
  13. Baneblade

    Nothing in the game comes anywhere close to the thrill of taking down you pilots with my Vanguard, that alone is enough to keep me playing. And yall deserve every single embarrassing death I can give you.
    • Up x 2
  14. Demigan

    This is all deflection and a desperate attempt to justify yourself.

    Why do you think players need more cover in bases? Because aircraft are so powerful that without cover ground units are just dead.
    Why do you think players need the heavily nerfed G2A turrets? Because there isnt enough basic G2A available.
    Why do you get so much hate? Because you are an ignorant elitist asking for more firepower so you can facetank the only vehicle with a decent chance to kill you in a face to face engagement.

    I mean you've literally said that your experience as a pilot is what counts, but now you are saying "oh no I rarely ground pound you have to believe me but also my experience is more important than yours despite barely doing ground pounding".

    You get cussed at for focussing on a part of the game that in its current state would have been better if it had been cut from the game in its entirety. Its imbalanced, it destroys the fun of others and when they complain you say its the fault of the players and the base design or anything except your aircraft being too powerful.

    Lets not forget that you open your post with how anyone who disagrees with you is a troll and that you call the players who stick with the worst weapons in the game (G2A) "Goldfish with strokes" and then say "why do you hate me"
  15. Johannes Kaiser

    "What wins the fight is what wins the fight." If we want to win we'll all do stuff like that. Agreed. But as you said, it's very important to acknowledge what we are doing and why we are doing it. Namely taking the strongest option (sometimes balanced, not always) in order to win a fight we really need/want to go our way. And the other important thing is not being pricks about it. Being self-aware instead.

    Hey, I brought a MAX to a 1v1 yesterday. :) It was because a VS MAX was camping a tunnel exit on a Tech Plant and I had neither the time nor inclination to be subtle about its removal. Hacksaw go BOOM.

    Never got into flying much, I can path well enough, but shooting while at it is something that eludes me even after 9 years of playing on and off. Did some groundpunding (guess around 200 kills total over all those years), it felt both gratifying and cheap at the same time, every single time. So I mostly reserve myself the right to say "I am a bad combat pilot, but I know it is the antithesis of fun for the fround troops".
    • Up x 1
  16. JibbaJabba

    Heh, I think 9 times out of 10 when I find myself in an Anti-infantry max it's because there was Air that needed deterred and that's how it started. It's dirty and it's fun. And when I'm finally killed by a C4 "Boosher" I come to the forums and say the max is underpowered and LAs need a nerf.... Just kidding. :p.
  17. Exileant

    :eek: The IRONY! :D Hahaha! Thank you for showing that article. Without EVER READING that introduction until now, and going JUST ON ITS LOOKS; I TOLD DEMIGAN and everyone else WHAT IT WAS DESIGNED TO BE: A HIGH SPEED SKIMMER geared for LOW ALTITUDE performance, and how to use it! Yet, he and his buddies argued with me about that until they were blue in the face.

    o_O It is also Ironic that my pitches for how it SHOULD to operate, was ACTUALLY HOW IT WAS ORIGINALLY DESIGNED TO! They need to up the Cruise and Afterburner speeds, (Because the Dervish on PlayStation cannot even break 300 K.P.H.) as well as extend the stamina of the Afterburner with special built in High Capacity Fuel Tanks that also charge a tad faster than the High Capacity tanks found on a standard E.S.F. To make us faster than everything else.

    :( We need to be able to Scramble away for the 7 fighters that decide to target us for DARING to show up! The way it functions is actually the opposite of its introduction. I find it actually works a little better against ground targets more so than Air. Pixie is like a Jotunn and only works if your enemy has no idea where it came from and what it is, so the speed that it is missing is what tied this craft together. It should be Afterburning away at 400K.P.H. and be able to sustain those speeds for at least 18-20 seconds to actually be able to ESCAPE a combat zone completely.o_O 3500-3800 armor is not enough to save the aircraft from 2-7 fighters on you; which is often what you face on underpopulated teams.
    • Up x 1
  18. Demigan

    You were asking for automated gunner seats, which was our contention. We did a little bit of "discussing"* of what it should be designed for, not what it was designed for. Similar to how the Harasser was designed from the ground up to be a cheap disposable 3-man transport for what would later become fireteams, only to become a fast assault tank from day 1.

    *as is the case with exiliant, its mostly his stream of consciousness ranting and us trying to get some facts through to him.
    • Up x 2
  19. VV4LL3

    Since it's impossible to find a gunner, and sometimes I like to be lazy and change things up, I have a Dervish build called "Barnacle" where it has top armor and pixie, and stealth, and I land/in techplants next to fights and shoot at things that spawn. sadly, the damage is too low for them to care... so they fly off. But IF they die, I can finally get A2A mission credit!!!!!!!!

    Def agree on your input. It's crazy how they think it's a legitimate "air superiority" aircraft. lol I posted the Joint Publications (3-1) and DTIC white paper on what actually qualifies as air superiority and the characteristics of a air superiority fighter. The dervish qualifies for none. lol

    Prowler: single, double round burst, with incredible accuracy -- dead.
    Mosquito just flies under or above you. There's literally no maneuverability. It has become such a joke to dogfight dervishes on Connery, that our TR mosi's sometimes have fun trying to flip you MID COMBAT, becaus eyou have no chance. They take turns.. it's sad and pathetic really.
    Afterburner, too short..
    But why isn't the cruise on this aircraft much higher? For most aircraft, it's bound by three main rules. 1. Fuel capacity for sortie duration. (non issue in this world), 2. Hard point/ pylon & wing size, for ordinance. 3. Engine size for cruise, intercept, engagement...

    The size of the engines on the Dervish, like 2-3times larger than the other airframes, would normally indicate it has a MUCH higher cruise speed. NOPE.

    The large wing surface area with thrust vectored ducted fans would make you think it has incredible maneuverability and payload capacity. NOPE

    Literally everything about that aircraft is trash.
    • Up x 1
  20. Exileant

    ;) We discussed both. You called me an idiot for thinking I could look at an aircraft and think I could know what it was designed for. As well as accusing me of making up the term: Skimmer.... I told you I was smarter than you. :D Hahahaha! You are right about one thing: A Harasser is like an E.S.F. in the fact that they were built to fight, NOT TRANSPORT. A Harasser was designed to be able to kill things much larger than itself, something AGAIN that we discussed. It was never designed to simply be a cheap transport. Your cheap Rapid Transport is your Valkyrie. Which is why it has so many exposed rumble seats and why it is named thusly... It is a Guardian Angel for your hot-drop team. A Harasser would not be named HARASSER if was just designed to be powerful enough to defend itself and transport people from point A to point B.

    o_O And yes. Even after they fix this things speed, N.S.O. STILL needs access to automated turrets because we can rarely find decent or even WILLING gunners because the weapons are terrible compared to other E.S.F. and Liberators the latter OF WHICH are supposed to be comparable to.
    • Up x 1