[Suggestion] ESF Pilot response review to anti air updates

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by MyBroodmother, Jun 25, 2022.

  1. MyBroodmother

    Now I know how to avoid it but anti air just doesn't feel fun interacting with it. it is anti fun to me. I have to move in a 3d space and they get to point and aim.... feels bad that it takes that many hornets and esf pods to kill a sg let alone a nose gun kill. Im upset and likely trolls will post because of it but I know for a fact that mastheads strikers skyguards and excessive lockons (infinite ammo+lancers) It doesn't feel good to fly.

    Suggestion: don't nerf anti air buff anti armor air to ground. give us a fighting chance. SG cut through us even if we oufly them. I know there will be that guy but the ttk disparity taking skill out of the equation is monstrous.
  2. Baneblade

    I guarantee that the fun you are not having is perfectly fine to everyone on the ground. You are welcome to not fly anywhere near us.
  3. TR5L4Y3R

    well at least YOU CAN avoid them
    any ground player cought out in the open by any aircraft unless in significant number is dead .... doesn´t matter if it is a single skyguard ... and if you died to a single skyguard or single AA heavy assault you did somethig seriously wrong ....
    also consider the anti fun ground players have facing a breaker ESF, Daltonlib, Peltervalkyre or bulldog galaxy ...
    • Up x 2
  4. Johannes Kaiser

    I agree. Getting hosed down by a Banshee Mossie (read: pretty much every Mossie) in a quarter of a second doesn't leave time to react in any way. Glad someone noticed.
    • Up x 5
  5. Demigan

    A simple comparison:

    - you can give an ESF the worst loadout possible when it is attacked by G2A, its escape is almost guaranteed. Just point your nose at the horizon and hit afterburner. G2A DPS has specifically been nerfed to ensure aircraft can virtually always escape.
    - most (common) G2A is weak enough to be killed by the ESF before the ESF is killed, the Skyguard is the exception but still fully killable by ESF.
    - ESF require zero teamwork to murder anything.

    Now for the ground:
    - with almost any loadout if an ESF attacks you are defenseless. Your only option is to already be in cover as infantry due to the quick TTK's. Vehicles have virtually no cover to use anywhere in the game and have to rely on the pilot being stupid enough to get in range of their weapon.
    - the few loadouts that are G2A are so limited that they can only really be used effectively against aircraft. People will ditch them when no aircraft are around or else be stuck waiting for a target that may never come and that they have little chance of killing.
    - unlike ESF that require no teamwork whatsoever to be kill something, G2A can only kill with teamwork (or the ESF being stupid).

    My suggestion: do not buff ESF A2G in any way whatsoever because that would be one of the stupidest things to do. Give us G2A weapons that require some skill but can absolutely murder aircraft (Walkers do not fulfill this role as they use spray&pray and high velocity to make hits easier). A simple example would be adding somewhat altered ESF A2A noseguns to the Lightning. Other options would be auto-canons designed to fight aircraft like a G2A version of the Saron, Viper, Enforcer or a combination of them. Such auto-canons would have the added advantage of being useable against something other than aircraft, like a vehicular AI weapon that does NOT rely on AOE to kill but on repeated hits.
    • Up x 4
  6. UberNoob1337101

    G2A TTK versus ESF with 100% accuracy, no composite armor or fire suppression:

    Masthead w/ Heavy Magazine - 8 seconds
    Masthead w/o Heavy Magazine - 11 seconds
    MAX Dual Flak Arm - 5 seconds
    Striker - 7 seconds
    Lock-on launcher - 13 seconds

    Skyguard - 4.5 seconds if all shots land
    Walker - 4.7-5.3 seconds depending on range
    Ranger - 4.909 seconds

    Almost every single one of these weapons is hard capped at 350m range and do nothing beyond and most have very low projectile velocity.

    A2G TTK :

    Banshee versus MAX - 1 second
    Banshee versus infantry - 0.2 seconds with only AoE, potentially ~0.1 seconds with some direct hits.

    Mustang AH versus MAX - 1 second
    Mustang AH versus infantry - instant if over half pellets hit directly, 0.33 seconds otherwise.

    Rocket pods - ~0.4 seconds versus infantry, varies slightly with faction variant.

    Pelters - 1.1 seconds with AoE only.
    CAS 14-E - 1.2 seconds with AoE only.

    L-24R Spur - 1.2 seconds with AoE only, ~0.4 seconds with direct hits

    Side note : Flak Armor reduces damage from common explosives by 50%, and A2G weapons by 20%.

    If G2A is anti fun, imagine how it is for ground units that die in under a second.
    • Up x 8
  7. VV4LL3

    I'm looking forward to the changes and hope more to come! Nothing like having to wait 3-5 seconds to get a lock just to get smoked in less than a second with laser precision. Then watch them fly off unscathed into the horizon.
    • Up x 1
  8. MyBroodmother

    Look you guys act like IDK what air can do but proof is in the pudding no pilots I know want to fly right now. You are wanting a combined arms game to be COD and it isn't. Air IRL is dominate and should be in game as well. However BASE design with no cover gets you guys slaughtered not the weapons. If I get to target you a2g that means enemy air picks me off. You are weaker to air and everything else for a2g.

    taking that out of the equation all anti air right now is nothing but pilot hate which we spend years on while you take what 3 seconds to learn how to move your mouse and hold it? You hate it because you can not fly yourselves. Go up there and kill us if it bothers you not some free sam missile spam that you can fire on a low cooldown. Pilot are angry and I'm posting this on behalf of two air outfits.
    • Up x 1
  9. VV4LL3

    A2A & A2G is still highly active on Connery. Of course, anecdotally speaking, there doesn't seem to be a change in the number of Mosi's & Libs smoking people on the ground with little to no challenge. Perhaps your server has better G2A folks? Come over to Connery and gang up with your fellow A2G farmers, since there seems to be no change.

    Not true. Only in uncontested airspace. Most 3rd/4th generation aircraft, to include virtually all helicopters would easily get smoked by advanced air denial systems. That's pretty much why the A10 is getting phased out, since a 30 year old SAM can drop it like it's nothing. F35/JSF and F22 though, have a massive upper hand on air denial systems... but for the majority of every nation's airborne platforms? Buh bye... There's a reason why Suppression of Enemy Air Defense (SEAD) sorties/ operations are vital.

    Depends on the air platform. If you're running s Mosi? Probably not. Afterburn and come back when you've got your wits about you. Besides that, that's IF... again... IF you're in contested airspace. Without being contested, most, if not all, targets do not stand a chance.

    Granted, flying in PS2 has a steep learning curve. Unfortunately, for the rest of us that don't want to fly just to survive are supposed to have an arsenal of defenses that just DO NOT WORK effectively. Imagine if C4, Rockets, etc, ... hardly did enough damage to tanks because they could simply evade the systems, or their armor was offering too much resistance? Tank farms do happen, but people have a chance with the right arsenal and tactics. That really isn't too much of an option against air.

    Nah, there's supposed to be tools specifically to counter your dominance, they just don't work. Considering you spent, what, 3 years?!?!?! to get that good, what chance does a casual or some new person have? None. People don't like dying without a chance to fight back. Basic gaming. Sorry you feel your, and many pilot, insta-win kill streak days are coming to an end, but... fear not.. they're just fine. You'll just have to watch out a little bit more, that's all.
    • Up x 6
  10. Demigan

    Proof is in the pudding allright, air dominates ground right now and if pilots dont want to fly right now its because they are elitists who expect they should be getting anything just because they are aircraft.

    "Aircraft IRL dominate" is no excuse to screw up game design. Also it directly contradicts your own idea about combined arms since aircraft completely destroy the idea of needing to combine arms for advantages.

    Also as the war in Ukraine proves once again, aircraft DO NOT DOMINATE. As far as I'm aware the only conflict where aircraft ever were a fully effective force unto itself was Desert Storm, and even there they needed ground forces to actually take stuff. And I dont know of any conflicts before or since that had half the success of Desert Storm. Pretty much every major air campaign ever did NOT reach their goals and often even the opposite effect (like bombing Londen which just increased English resolve to keep fighting and wasted resources that could have destroyed the airforce capabilities of the English).
    Aircraft are expensive to buy, expensive to fly (10.000 per flight hour is dirt cheap), expensive to arm and often dont outperform regular artillery outside of the potential to hit stuff beyond artillery range.

    The fact that we are reliant on base design to not get slaughtered is also a great sign of hoe badly balanced this is. We dont have self defense options or ways to avoid aircraft fire unless we have a base that lets us avoid it. I mean you are literally saying "the moment you have no cover we annihilate you with our weapons so its the lack of cover that is the problem not our accurate super powerful weapons that out-DPS pretty much anything on the ground".

    As for the "I am vulnerable when doing A2G to other A2A". You arent half as vulnerable as G2A is and you get way more leniency in firepower and the fact that there is no guarantee enemy aircraft will even be there to engage you, while there is a guarantee G2A can be engaged.

    [/quote]taking that out of the equation all anti air right now is nothing but pilot hate which we spend years on while you take what 3 seconds to learn how to move your mouse and hold it? You hate it because you can not fly yourselves. Go up there and kill us if it bothers you not some free sam missile spam that you can fire on a low cooldown. Pilot are angry and I'm posting this on behalf of two air outfits.[/quote]

    There is a good reason there is this much pilot hate: our weapons have a skill floor and skill ceiling that is pretty much on top of each other. There is little way to improve on G2A and actually kill aircraft. And its not as if aircraft are doing much better, with 90% of them approaching from the same area at the same heights and checking the same high traffic spots for some cheap kills before zooming off again.
    Also many of the people on here have actually flown aircraft, not that you would know because you just dont want to hear any opposing opinion. Hey here's a question: DO YOU PLAY G2A? No? You dont know about G2A except as aircraft? So how come you think you know how good or bad G2A works? You think that Pilots have it bad because they dont want to fly? Now imagine how bad G2A has it which even less people want to play.

    You also conveniently ignore that I ask for more skillful G2A.

    All you want is for your ESF to be pumped up to even more ridiculous heights. You already have:
    - AA base turrets were nerfed into the ground because "they did plink damage at range"
    - engi auto-granted NAR to both give incentives to use engi's over bailassaults and to combat plink damage
    - auto-granted afterburners regardless of what is in the secondary loadout (they didnt start with that)
    - superior fire suppression (25% over 15%) because, surprise surprise, it was to handle plink damage at range more easily (the devs never really bothered much with giving proper reasons for the changes)
    - two freaking weapon systems, and pretty much all weapons an ESF can equip would be considered OP on a ground unit like a Lightning. Rocketpods, Hornets, the A2A and A2G noseguns... pretty much only Coyotes wouldnt be blatantly OP.
    - Auto-granted engagement radar. It was supposed to be a tool for newbies to learn how to find and engage enemy aircraft but veteran pilots had one more change "for the newbies" by making it not take a slot which meant every veteran equips stealth and detects newbies with ease. The tool to help new players has literally become the tool to hunt them down more easily until they learn to use stealth in that slot.
    - early on flak weapons could increase their damage by landing their flak closer to the aircraft or hitting it directly. The devs decided to nerf this as it was "unfair" for aircraft to get killed by one guy who had the skill/distance (read: the ESF was hovering and got flanked at almost point blank) to land many shots near the aircraft. So they removed it in order for aircraft to have a guaranteed chance of escape again if they reacted early enough
    - there was work done on creating different control settings, like yaw on mouse. Unfortunately the devs first said they wanted to not release it just to see if their controlscheme would be fun enough to keep as-is and later the veteran pilots protested that it would "just make them better at killing newbies so dont give them a controlscheme that makes it easier to learn and control their aircraft". Because pilots are such swell guys who are always looking out for themse... I mean the newbies and the ground plebs.
    - before the game released G2A was effective. Then the devs said "we want more players to be pilots so we nerf G2A and make sure A2A is the primary method of killing aircraft to encourage more players to use it". And the game has suffered from that decision ever since.

    Not that you would know any of this Broodmother, you just want more powerful A2G weapons.
    • Up x 4
  11. Liewec123

    Reduce the effective range of AA,
    Rework lolpods to deal a bit more direct damage and far less splash,
    Rework the AI noseguns into easier to use A2A noseguns with less damage than the normal noseguns.

    For example, Banshee no longer deals splash damage but now instead fires flak rounds which will detonate in close proximity to aircraft.

    The aim of these changes is to reduce the effect of AA on people far away from the fight, practically REMOVE the A2G ESF game, And also give new and unskilled pilots noseguns that they can actually land hits in A2A, while not making them better than the much faster killing direct hit noseguns.
    Everyone wins, except the groundpounders, but screw those guys anyway :)
    • Up x 5
  12. MyBroodmother

    I am an elitist for wanting my pilots not wanting to be bullied by a community that primarily wants to play infantry? No. I play this game for its diversity. the same issues plague tank pilots. Launchers that normally would cost 100k+ each shred through tanks for free in this game and its annoying. I am all for reducing our splash damage. If I want to farm infantry I'd rather use a different tool. Historically AI mines/c4 and guns outperform for KPM. It isn't cool that hoverside is being bullied just because you can't fly. Aerial anomalies btw are a good direction. However we have nothing to do but protect the boys on the ground.

    Since you guys are so worried about spur banshee dalton etc on airspace that appears uncontested. ( usually other pilots are patrolling) get rid of our splash. Get incindiary rounds instead of explosive. Banshee is basically a vulcan. Air hammer is a weird version of it and PPA is in bad shape right now.
  13. Demigan

    You are elitist for thinking one of the most powerful tools in the game has it bad, being ignorant to how much worse the ground troops have it against this tool, saying that everyone who disagrees has to be a troll even in the first post, saying that the only valuable experience is that of the pilot and not of the victims/G2A users who bring a whopping ⅔rd of the total experience when dealing with air. Also then daring to ask for buffs to the ESF because there is one unit it cannot curbstomp in a direct engagement is just sad.

    Oh also you are elitist for thinking everyone else's opinion is invalid because "they are all infantry players". Why does that make their experiences less valid than someone like you who obviously is ultra biased to aircraft and vehicles? Worse: infantry is the basic unit in the game, many dedicated vehicle players on here spend more time as infantry than vehicles. It would be stupid to make infantry players gameplay (even more) crap just for vehicle/air players to enjoy themselves, when even the vehicle players spend more time as the infantry.

    In that case, why ask for the ESF to curbstomp one of the few threats it has with stronger A2G and reduce the need for diversity?
    I mean right now you can literally beat a Skyguard because you are an AIRCRAFT so you control pretty much the entire engagement. Pick Hornets, "find" a Skyguard by just doing your thing and getting attacked. Repair up and then take the 15 seconds it takes to fly around and attack it in the rear/flank. Hornets deal more than enough damage that if the Skyguard doesnt spot you in time and doesnt know where to look immediately you will win. By buffing the A2G all you do us take away diversity as then 100% of ESF engagements would basically be full frontal attacks where they beat the hell out of everything and should they be on the losing side they just afterburn to safety.

    You arent for diversity, you may think you do but you dont.

    Are you kidding me?
    First of all a real life dumbfire like most common rocketlaunchers are in game would range from 500 to 10.000 dollars depending on size, utility and production numbers. For more specialized launchers like the NLAW you would pay 40.000, and with the top-attack mode they can OHK any existing tank right now.

    Then there is the fact that your vehicle costs 5 grenades. You cant even buy a working engine for a Quad bike like the Flash for that, let alone a fully functional tank with armor, turret, some supreme vision equipment and no ability to disable parts of the vehicle with anything from small-arms to full anti-tank weapons until the tank is on fire. Oh and a full load of shells and no fuel costs. Realistically an ESF would cost more per minute to fly than you gain nanites. But that is the problem with people wanting realism, they only want it when it suits them.

    Then there is the fact that no infantry rocketlauncher "shreds" tanks, at all. Infantry AV has been extremely underpowered since forever, and during the CAI update they decided to nerf them even more. Not that the tankers noticed at the time (or since).

    KPM is a terrible excuse especially for the weapons chosen. For example a mine KPM is incredibly boosted due to players switching to it, deploying it and then switching back. The time spend with the "weapon" is so low that the KPM automatically becomes high.
    Small-arms having high KPM is also unsurprising. For example if you have the choice of attacking a vehicle you barely have a chance of beating or attacking another infantry, you pick option 2. And anyone who wins that fight raises the KPM of infantry small-arms. There are dozens of reasons like this why KPM can be higher without it meaning anything for the KPM of air or ground vehicles.

    Also "it isnt cool that hoverside is being bullied"? Hoverside has been constantly improved upon and protected from just about anything that might annoy them and often even turned into a weapon for them, like how the Engagement radar was altered to be a newby hunting tool.

    splash was never the problem, an unfair balance between A2G vs any ground units and how aircraft are protected against the terribly designed dedicated G2A weapons is the problem.

    What we need:
    - skillful G2A that can actually kill aircraft as hard as aircraft can kill ground.
    - that all G2A has secondary uses which players can and want to use when aircraft arent around. At no point should aircraft ever expect no G2A to be present.
    - that any ground unit has access to equipment, tools, abilities, utilities or movement sets that can protect against airstrikes, regardless of the unit having a dedicated G2A loadout. At no point should a player have no option to defend against an aircraft when it appears. This can be as simple as a distortion field so the aircraft cannot pinpoint your location as easily or as complex as a tool that nerfs the aircraft maneuverability so it has less chance of accurately firing at you.
    • Up x 2
  14. JibbaJabba

    ..at a thing moving in 3d space...
    I assure you that although you may not recognize it, YOU ARE the one having fun.

    if it "doesn't feel good to fly" just imagine what it feels like being on the ground.

    Nobody even wants to engage with you. They are forced into a truly not-fun situation every time you show up. They must stop doing the fun thing they were doing before. You literally ruin fun.

    The infantry fighting back against you are at every disadvantage and only numbers really give them a chance. They dare not hope for any actual kills but will instead settle for deterrence. Those not directly giving up what they were doing and switching to dedicated G2A are getting utterly wrecked by you with no actions on their part having an outcome in the engagement.
    • Up x 5
  15. MonnyMoony

    I'd happily take half the range of Max busters - for triple damage at point blank range.
    • Up x 4
  16. The Shozaku

    Oh wow, its worse on the forums than on the subreddit. I can assure you, if you're basing your entire opinion of aircraft based on the minority of A2G farmers, then as infantry you should be farmed. xD

    A single infantry with only small arms, no anti-air weapon at all, by its lonesome is the equivalent of 33% of an esf nose gun... 3 infantry with small arms = 1 esf of damage.... There are hundreds of you xD

    But good news for you OP, there are plenty of ways to deal with SG, the easiest of which is learning how to dumb fire your Hornets so you can shoot and leave them mid flight. Most anti-air aren't very bright, so all you have to do is wait for them to be distracted and lob 2 more dumb fire hornets at them. Of course a skyguard could counter this with relative ease....... but they need an attention span of more than oooo shiney, which thy rarely will.

    A common saying among pilots. Anti-air isn't weak, its just crewed by goldfish stroke victims. Nothing is more terrifying than Anti-Air crewed by a pilot :p
  17. JibbaJabba

    haha, you think A2G farmers are the minority of air. LOL.

    Focus fire against a stupid pilot (only) is effective. It's probably the most effective G2A weapon there is which indicates just how sad the situation is.
    No it's not. It's not terrifying in the slightest. G2A guns suck. Period. The most terrifying thing about G2A crewed by a pilot is he might leave the G2A and pull an ESF. You fear nothing else.

    If you think G2A is balanced against G2A and If "learn to play" is your only contribution to the discussion then spare us. I'd rather argue about water being dry.
    • Up x 2
  18. That_One_Kane_Guy

    Real life examples are not valid in a game where factions with the ability to reconstitute life with hyper-advanced nanotech deign to shoot at each other with weapons systems that would be an embarrassment on a 1944 battlefield. That being said:

    Pick up a history book. With very, very few exceptions, air hasn't been dominant in a peer-to-peer conflict since its inception. In fact, history is rife with examples of much more powerful air forces being marginalized or even neutralized by a relatively small number of air defense weapons.
    • Up x 4
  19. Exileant

    :D Nothing that hurts is fun to interact with unless it is weak. Rangers and Skyguards are a blast to interact with in Liberators, so long as there is only one turret going at you. :p You can always pull one of those and decimate everything on the field with no problem even operated Solo.

    :confused: What you are wanting your E.S.F. to do is mainly a Liberators job. Your job is to Farm soft targets and kill lighter high mobility ground and air targets, basically things that a Liberator will have a tougher time killing. Skill can be brought up to the point to where you can challenge Skyguards with no Rockets or Missiles at all, just the nose cannon, but typically A.A. is best left to the large planes to devour.;)
    • Up x 1
  20. MonnyMoony

    A dedicated AA max costs 100 nanites more than an ESF - yet can get easily one clipped from full health even with fully certed ordnance armour by a Banshee Mossie or Mustang Reaver in around 1 second.

    The Max gives up almost all capability against infantry and other vehicles in order to equip an AA loadout - yet still doesn't stand a chance against an ESF - especially if caught in the open.

    The ESF on the other hand retains some capability against vehicles and aircraft in as much as Banshee and Mustang can both deal significant damage to these units - and the ESF also retains the option of fitting LOLpods in addition to it's nose gun.
    • Up x 4