Escalation isnt going to be that good.

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Demigan, Feb 7, 2020.

  1. Demigan

    Lets try to put it in simple terms:

    As an update it is an improvement.

    The goals it tries to reach will be met, slightly.

    The way it tries to reach those goals are dead wrong. They want increased outfit play and also some way for the macro outfit inviter not to be worth that much. Currently people will join such an outfit because... inclusion? Not realising how an outfit works? Who knows. But after this update the players have an extra reason to join any random outfit: to enjoy this new metagame... assuming they can fight their way through the other players in the outfit that try the same.

    Joining an outfit should be a momentous occasion. You have found players that you like, that have a playstyle or personality that complements or amuses you. The outfit should be there to help make it official and bind you together. That is the way to get players more invested and get that higher playtime compared to non-outfit players.
    Yet this update will push it to "do it to possibly enjoy the outfit bonusses".
    They should focus on getting players to play together. Find ways for players to find each other and enjoy playing together so they'll want to make an outfit because they already are in every sense except the name. Focus on encouraging teamplay, rather than enforcing it by saying "if you dont join you dont get to enjoy this".

    Now if you look at the way points are awarded it doesnt take long to see you can game the system deliberately through territory seeding. When a continent unlocks no bases belong to any outfits, and with how frontlines remain stationary most of the bases close to the warpgate dont get to be captured a lot. This encourages outfits to ignore lanes and let them be captured, then recapture them so those bases now generate points for them.
    Other tactics might include redeploy bombing. You send just one player to every active attack (because as always defense isnt rewarded properly). This way any base capture will generate points for your faction even if all your single outfit member did was farm.

    As for other upgrades. The ANVIL system is something I've speculated about as one of the perfect ways to make being outpopped fun. The more you are outpopped the bigger the AVNVIL crate is you can spawn, circumventing the indefensible death traps that most base vehicle spawns are.
    The Steel Rain option could be used by individual players when outpopped within a certain distance of the spawn, the more outpopped you are the larger the radius.
    The citadel shield could be secondary objectives of many bases that need to be destroyed before vehicles and aircraft can fire into the base. Additionally small versions could be available for vehicles or as infantry deployables to provide the currently non-existant protection against air units (using an umbrella design so it doesnt protect from other tanks and infantry).
    Yet instead it is thrown away to make the outfits more juicy, pissing on the players who do not join an outfit immediately regardless of the outfit members compatibility. Its like the forwards station all over again: a perfect game changer thrown down the toilet and changed into the vastly inferior Router design purely to make construction a tiny bit more attractive.

    At the very least incorporate these new changes into the base game. Let players find each other and form their own outfits so that it is easier to get to the Bastions and other crap, but not mandatory.
    • Up x 6
  2. adamts01

    I think outfit objectives are a great way to go. They did mention their concern about including smaller outfits, so they are aware of that.

    One thing that has always annoyed me was the million small outfits with 2 or 3 players online at a time. No one groups up to the point where they can be effective on a large scale. New players who do join a small outfit won't stick with the game if there's never anyone to group up with. Two ways around this are incentivising outfits to merge, which I see this patch doing, or having some sort of opt in pact, for all intents and purposes joining outfits together while retaining their individual uniqueness.

    As far as a few monster zergfits running servers, these objectives are a good way to see what's actually most effective, and better tactics should prevail. Without naming names, I can say that the largest zergfit on one faction on my server has gone through a transformation of sorts, emphasizing splitting the platoon when they don't need the pop to take a particular base. Outfits that actually care about securing the continent have shifted their meta, and these increased rewards for success should further improve their strategy. Zerfits who don't play objectively won't be rewarded, and that's good.

    You make a great point about gaming the system. Letting the enemy zerg your own warpgate just to get your name on some easily defendable territory once you take it back. Maybe a solution to that as well as better incentivising defense is to give outfits points for that entire lane depending on how much they've defended bases in front of it.
    • Up x 2
  3. InexoraVC

    I've joined a random outfit (DIG) few minutes before I read Demigan's post. For the reason Demigan written about.
    I'm quite sceptical about escalation.
  4. SikVvVidiT

    Very well written post and I agree with most of your points Demigan, but it doesn't matter they don't listen.. I firmly believe they don't even play their own game...Just like most MMO's you play until the developers kill it (Planetside 1 and BFR's anyone?) and then you just move onto something else... I just wish someone else would make a freaking MMOFPS!!!

    That way Walmart erm I mean Daybreak would have to listen to their player base or fear us going to the competition.
  5. OneShadowWarrior

    Planetside 2 wasn’t all that great at release either but over the years it has gone from Sony, Daybreak and now Rogue Planet.

    This is the first I’ve seen where they are making a effort to tie lore, a social hub, vendors and outfits and I don’t expect them to be able to jam it all in in one big update. It’s a huge effort by the developers.

    They still have to address so many DX11 fixes, but I guess they’ll work through it. The big question to me is, will it be enough for the Community to open their hearts and wallets up and that is the bigger question.
    • Up x 2
  6. Liewec123

    i'm also completely against the idea of Desolation which they're bringing in with this update,
    i think they said its 64 players per outfit/faction, and they'll be doing it on a weekend.
    our average playercount on my server is about 800 at a busy primetime.

    we're really going to feel it when they take nearly a quarter of the playerbase out of the main game
    to play on their own private map...

    and the bastion fleet carriers giving zergfits free ESFs (atleast 48 of them, i don't know if there is a cooldown)
    is really going to suck for whoever the zergfit is zerging.

    all i really wanted to see from a new update was balance changes,
    like a buff to NSO, make Nest Launcher useable or something,
    but the balance stuff seems to have been put on hold
    while they give zergfits new toys with which to zerg harder.

    so as a solo player what i get from this update is:
    i'll have way smaller fights on occasion because a quarter of the playerbase is fighting on a private map,
    i'll be getting zerged harder by the VS zergfits with their fleet carriers and 4 dozen free ESFs.

    and lastly Sanctuary just seems like a colossal waste of resources too.
    noone plays PS2 to RP, all of these vendors could have been done as simple UI.

    i'll keep waiting for NSO Javelin to have a purpose though i guess! because "priorities."

    one good thing that i took from the stream though, they've canned Oshur,
    new maps aren't what the game needs.
    • Up x 1
  7. OneShadowWarrior

    It’s a big endeavor for them to pack so much into one update. The whole resource system looks interesting, I don’t know maybe 6 months down the road they’ll hash out small outfits and stuff for the soloist.

    This is the first time I’ve seen them take such a bold leap with the game. Combining elements from War Hammer, Arena, Battle Royale and a expanded resource system with vendors, which gives more room for even more content. We will just have to see.
  8. Johannes Kaiser

    I did "join" a potentially bigger outfit as well, but in fact this was merely my community getting active in PS2 again and some players even moving from a server where they'd been active a long time ago (back then on Emerald, since most players were US-based, now Miller because most these days are european). We estimate from about 2 active PS2 players an increase to ~12. Anything that does that is a positive note in my book so far.
    I do share the concerns of pressing people into swarm-outfits with no cohesion whatsoever just for the gain, and the potential for increased zergfest resulting from that. But until then I'll stay happy that I can finally play with my battle brothers.
  9. Demigan

    I understand what you mean, and like I said it will improve the game... but how much and how long?

    Zergfits for example will see only a small section with access to the Bastion Carrier, orbital strikes, shields etc. The rest will work hard and can only hope their outfit leaders let them enjoy that work by using it while they are present.

    There are also some obvious things that could be done to trump the system. You can call a Bastion carrier and 48 people can fit in and exit in an A2A fighter... but players can deploy into the bastion carrier to get in. What prevents a second platoon to deploy into the carrier and now there's 96 A2A fighters around the carrier? Obviously a zergfit would benefit much more than a small outfit from pulling a Bastion Carrier, if only because using that A2A fighter to get around the continent for free.

    The heavy focus on outfits and what they can achieve is also not that good. If 90% of the fights are still the same and not influenced by the outfit updates nothing has changed. However these changes focus on the capture of bases, not their defense. The game is still hampered in battleflow. When a base is captured you usually see some defenders leave, making it harder to defend the next base until you reach a large facility again. Now you are also punished for defending a base as you could be scoring more points by capturing other bases. Higher outfit play does not matter if the overall gameplay is less enjoyable, especially when said higher gameplay is purely about attacking and even deliberately seeding territory so you can claim it for your own faction later.

    It would be an improvement already to give individual players resources as well that can be used in squads and platoons. This way a platoon can gather resources from it's members and call in one of these new abilities, allowing more people to enjoy the new system. Access to such abilities would be based on resources put in by each player, who can optionally put in resourced if they want, allowing someone who plays for short timespans to gather resources anyway.

    But it would be better if we focused on the actual gameplay first. I've said it before: outfits and platoons are the tools to make use of teamplay, they arent teamplay itself. Make base captures consist out of multiple objectives, add more variety in capture mechanics, rebalance infanfry vs vehicle vs air, make sure each class and each vehicle has an important role to play with enough reason to include them in just about any attack.
  10. OneShadowWarrior

    They are cramming an awful lot in one update. I think it’s only the beginning. 2020 is a exciting year for this game. With the excitement will it sustain? That is a big question as we’ve seen lots of stuff in the past fail.

    The battle over resources with lore and a story makes sense, vending seems empty at the moment and war assets plus outfit wars is still bare bones, we will see as updates roll in how it goes and if it will keep the excitement.

    The last 3-4 years of Planetside have been rough, but I am willing to let the past go.

    The development seems excited and invigorated. They did a Server upgrade to Connery and fixed a long standing 18 month bug of audio footsteps, it’s basic details that Daybreak failed to fix that haunted them.

    We shall see.
  11. PotentPotential

    i actually posted something about this as soon as i watched the dev stream. i think this update is actually going to do more harm than good (at least with how its being implemented). this also comes from assuming the worst of planetsides community, which from my seven years of experience is completely justified. this game, and the majority of its twitch representatives, promote selfishness. whether its a medic who refuses to revive other medics to increase their revives, or a heavy main who demands vehicle nerfs so they arent required to perform their only support role.

    "whilst this update may increase outfit cohesion among its members, this will destroy all cohesion between the outfits on a faction. faction owned territory, something that should provide benefits to the entire faction, is now going to cause a conflict of interest for members of the outfits that do not own it. when the owning outfit requests assistance in defending their base, why should other outfits respond? it is in their best interests to allow the enemy to take that base so they have a chance at recapturing it to gain the auraxium or other resources it may provide.

    the spending of these resources to purchase war assets also require someone who has been permitted by their outfit leader. what if one of those members isnt online? what about during the non-peak hours when the only platoons are "public" and made of many different outfits. that incentive to work together goes out the window. what if the platoon leader is from one outfit while the majority of his platoon are members of some zergfit who arent capable of effectively leading themselves? this happens more often than not since the veteran players, whose experience makes them the most suitable for leading, tend to avoid joining the zergfits because of their noob player reputation. why should the veteran players lead these zergfit members when they know all of the resources from the bases they capture will go to a different outfit?

    there are very limiting factors when these war assets are attached specifically to permitted outfit members only. the only way to negate these limitations is for the entire faction to form one massive outfit, something the devs claimed they were trying to avoid, yet somehow managed to promote more than ever. these new features should have been given specifically to the individuals who lead platoons and/or squads, no matter what outfit they are in or what outfit members they are leading."
    • Up x 2
  12. FLHuk

    • Up x 1
  13. Demigan

  14. JudgeNu

    You make some very good points.
    But there has always been a Meta, with the tryhards and the casuals coexisting.
    Allowing the Outfits to participate in a larger Meta imo doesnt hurt whatsoever.

    What can help the situation you point out is something i have noted in other games i play.
    In a games population there is always a certain smaller % of the "Elite" and a larger % of Casual, in general, and those in-between.
    What a games focus should be imo is a 'Symbiotic Relationship' between these players.

    If the Objectives of the Meta can be broken down lets say into Categories where these players can fall into place naturally and be rewarded accordingly we can have "Faction loyalty" "Teamplay" The Meta of the game requires while still allowing "4th Faction" play.
    An Outfit or Group of Outfits doing the ground game with resources etc can be acknowledged also in their own respects
    While Leadership Outfits can participate in the their roles.
  15. ..:::FLASHBACK:::..

    A new map in every game is always well accepted!

    The thing that Arena is still in their minds is not so good for me. moreover as in everything there are positive and negative sides.

    For the rest, I like what you think I agree with everyone, we only hope that it involves everyone.
  16. NCLH

    The essay writing club does some clickbait...
  17. iller

    I think it would be a way much more inclusive update for many of the disgruntled players if they just connected the Currency gain to "well maintained player bases" in the lattice Hex that outfit controls. That's like only 2 or 3 lines of code but it would bring a dozen more currently under-used mechanics in the game all together and add WAY MORE depth to this update than just seeing who can get the biggest multi-platoon Outfit zerg gobbling up crappy little Amp stations and bumf*ck Boonies bases out on the farthest outside Lattice links AWAY from the center of the Continent (and I Say this AS a 7-year concurrent member of an NC outfit that had 2 full platoons on last night, and it wasn't on Emerald!)

    Otherwise... I've already SEEN this movie. All of us who played GuildWars2 saw it with something called "Player Versus Door" ... where in Guilds would rush around the map capturing as many keeps as they could with Door-Melting blitz tactics like having nothing but Door-Rams and anti-Guildlord class specs to GET POINTS but then never actually ever defend the Keeps that their ALLIED guilds and pubbers captured first. It gets old super duper fast because the biggest Zergs always intentionally AVOID eachother and it turns a PvP game into a Player Vs. Building farm. Infact in this proposed update we have the strong possibility that Outfits of the same faction will even avoid defending eachother's Lattice Hexes because they'll WANT the enemy factions to capture that Hex just so the rival big Zerg outfit can capture it back for the Points!

    Go back to Twitter then if you can't handle detailed and factually WELL SUPPORTED arguments

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