ESCALATED in wrong direction

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by IVANPIDORVAN, Feb 7, 2020.

  1. JibbaJabba

    erry body biatchin' but meanwhile population is up 20% across the board.
    • Up x 3
  2. Demigan

    Because people are interested, but dont realize the extent of the changes yet. The update isnt even released yet outside the PTS!
    There is this mass delusion that squads, platoons and outfits equate to teamwork. Similar to the idea that 0.75 ADS was the most OP thing in existance and when removed from a lot of weapons barely changed them at all. Now they upgrade the outfits, and people dont realize how this will affect the playerbase and regular gameplay, they dont realize what gameplay will remain the same and how only select people will be using the outfit systems while the rest is feeding them the resources. Or how capturing bases is currently the antithesis of the game

    I am very sceptical about all this outfit stuff, cause i am solo player, it's obviuosle because i am ******* and cannot sit afk on points patiently waiting to be farmed, but thats 99% of platoon gameplay: redeploy - gal drop - die - repeat. Also most of the outfits don't restrict peoples by their KDR (that thing what enlarge my epeen) so it's hard to find organised squad of badass farmers who at the same time will be tolerant if i refuse to participate in some of their activity (96vs96 unplayable for me because in such *********** my FPS<20, or i have really good killstreak and i never interrupt my killstreaks if there is any possibility to kill more peoples before i die/run out of ammo, or whatever reason... not in the mood to listen peoples in discord for example (hop! misanthrope!)).

    But time will tell who was really right. Coming changes are not excite me to play more, empire strenghts was horrible idea, i never hated indar before that patch, but now i just open launcher, then check fisu, make sure that indar unlocked once again and shut down my launcher immidiatly.

  5. pnkdth

    They facilitate teamwork. More importantly though outfits offers community and familiarity rather than a hotchpotch mess of lone wolves who form into a zergball not really being sure why they're winning or losing this time. Worse still, it might lead to the other mega mass delusion that personal stats is a meaningful measurement of success (KDR being chief among the vanity metrics).

    As such, I think your initial statement is a bit of a strawman to make it easier to discard any positive effect of squads/platoons or outfits might have.

    For me, playing this game outside of an outfit is like playing Diet PS2. It looks the same but everything in the game is lacking something. Every experience falls short of what makes MMOs so compelling. Maybe I'm weird but I rather have mediocre stats from a fight if it means we won instead of fleeing to nurse my wounds to protect my dank MLG stats. Quite sad to see so many giving up on finding an outfit which suits their needs.
  6. Demigan

    They facilitate grabbing territory as an outfit member. This does not mean it requires teamwork. As I mentioned already you could just be present at a capture to gain it's capture points, and players could also deliberately sabotage their own team in order to seed territory so they can capture it later. Additionally any base that isn't generating points for the outfit has a higher chance to be ignored because the system rewards it.

    Also the way the game is set up a base capture is actually the last thing we want right now. A base capture still ends fights, and that fight will only truly return once the next large facility or easily defensible base in that lane is reached. By promoting base captures and not rewarding base defenses you get situations where fights are avoided, if they ever even start because defending a base is barely encouraged.

    You have been on these forums long enough to have seen me state exactly this a hundred times before: Squads and platoons are not teamwork. They are a tool to facilitate teamwork, but they are not the teamwork themselves. You need mechanics and possible ways to play together for the Squads and Platoons to work. This update gives it but behind a resource-gate for expensive and large equipment, meaning that most battles will not be benefitting from extra teamwork but from zergballs intent on capturing bases to fuel the resources. It's one of the reasons I specifically proposed that individual players would also generate resources that they can freely spend in Squads and Platoons to gain access to this type of equipment, if necessary smaller equipment versions. It would help give the squads and platoons more teamwork if they can generate such items as well.

    So no it's not a strawman. We need mechanics and methods to communicate more easily to facilitate teamwork, then use the outfits, squads and platoons to enhance that. Not the other way around where outfits, squads and platoons somehow are the teamwork themselves.

    I have an outfit, it even used to be near the top of Miller despite it's relatively low population. The reason I'm "giving up" is because I see the problems that will arise. It's not that hard to see. An incentive is created to capture bases but defense is only incentiviced if it's a base your outfit has captured, and then only when you can't capture more territory in the time that you defend it. Capturing bases is also a problem in this game by itself, as it ends fights.
    The entire reason we see people always holed up around the same Biolabs and the same bases like the Crown trifecta is because you can find a solid fight here that will last time and again. This is the core of PS2, this is what we should be enhancing. Big, unstoppable fights. We need to look at ways and mechanics that defenders do not leave when a base is taken, that they'll redouble their efforts to defend the next base and enjoy it no matter how outnumbered they might get. We need ways for big fights to chance it's scenery without the fight ending, because the big fights is all. Yet here the outfit system is promoting the end of fights and avoiding defensive combat in favor of attacks... Can you truly say that this will be for the good? It'll be a temporary spike, then the realization hits: This new update has problems, big one's. Things that should have been solved before. The battle flow, the repetitiveness of where we fight out of necessity, balance issues around aircraft before we give outfits unlimited A2A ESF upon calling a B(ig)F(cking)C(arrier).
    • Up x 2
  7. pnkdth

    That is literally what I just wrote. The statement I took issue with was you generalisation about teamwork and squads/platoons/outfits. I do not know if there actually are anyone here who believes that you automatically get teamwork out this. I think it is common knowledge that outfits tend to offer varied levels of size and level of organisation. Hence my claim it is a strawman to make it easier to hand-wave away anything which further builds on squads/platoons/outfits.

    The downside of individual rewards is linked to individual stats as both serve to encourage lone wolf behaviour. Additionally, if zergballs are being funnelled into each other to achieve larger objectives then what's the issue? I mean they would have to work together in order to bring down larger threats. One could say the fights would escalate (ok, I'll slap myself for that one) into bigger and more epic fights.

    That said, I'm certainly not opposed to more mechanics and synergies to improve player and player interaction and whatever individual rewards/links to squads/platoons/outfits might be I am sure they can be tweaked to work as they should.
  8. Demigan

    Yes it is what you wrote, but not what you meant. You mean that any increase in outfit mechanics/activity automatically means more teamwork. I say they are there to facilitate teamwork... But for that to happen you first need the mechanics to actually perform said teamwork. And that last bit is the important bit, as PS2 currently is a desert wasteland in terms of mechanics that promote playing together. You'll die of thirst quickly and most players are holed up around mirages thinking it's water not realizing how it's killing their game.

    And there's tons and tons of players that believe that squads and platoons automatically mean teamwork. Just delve through these forums and you'll find dozens of threads just about adding squad, platoon and outfit features without adding anything on the ground level for the players themselves. And this update is almost to a T the same as those suggestions: It adds stuff but doesn't actually change the way players regard each other or how they play together. At best after taking dozens of bases and waiting you get to throw a Citadel Shield down, or are able to call in a vehicle of convenience in the middle of nowhere, or are able to dump all outfit members into one base. It's backwards, having to play normally first for a single use ability that only momentarily changes the gameplay? I've already commented on how all these features could actually be used to enhance teamwork, as long as they are made more available and pop up in certain situations like being outpopped.

    So there's no strawman here. And even if there had been then it would have been about the comparison about squads and platoons. The problems with the update would still remain the same and would not be affected by the strawman so there's really no point in bringing it up, which makes it a double foul.

    It isn't the individual rewards that is the problem here. In the end all rewards have to be rewarding on an individual level or else that player won't use or support it.
    Individual rewards have to support the goal of the game, and that can be focused on teamplay. For example currently you are rewarded more for farming infantry kills than for destroying vehicles (KD versus practically non-existant vehicle kill stats). What if destroying a vehicle became a more prominent and important statistic? Suddenly players are rewarded for hunting down vehicles.
    Now add a system where assists become more valuable, and if you deal a decent portion of the damage you get a similar amount of kills and statistics as the one who deals the final blow. That way suddenly it's not about who can hold fire the longest and finish off the vehicle, it's about the team effort of destroying the vehicle... And all because we changed the individual rewards.

    As for the zergballs. My point is that zergballs would be used to attack and overwhelm the defenders because attacking has far better rewards now. Any potential counter-Zergball will itself have to consider: Do we defend a base that may or may not generate resources for us, or do we simply take other bases ourselves and hope that we can out-capture our opponents? These fights would de-escalate. Defenders would leave, zergs would roam more and more unchecked. You have seen the problems that the World Series thing did with giving out points? At least that one also offered points for defending.

    The mechanics and synergies should be the starting points. The outfits, squads and platoons can wait. They aren't important, they are the end-game of the teamplay. But before you get to the end-game you need to have a basic groundwork to start from. We should first get teamwork to be the most basic thing in the game. If two players meet, their first reaction should be "ah a <class/vehicle>, I'll be able to do <teamplay synergy/mechanic> with them".
    Then the squads and platoons can make use of these synergies and mechanics. First the players who use those synergies will find players they do these types of things more often with and they'll form squads and platoons because this makes it easier to stick together. That is a natural way of forming squads and platoons. Then and only then can we start looking at improving the squad/platoon/outfits themselves. But for now they are useless, more an inconvenience that gets people the wrong idea. It's been in the way of PS2 developing a solid teamplay groundwork since forever. Removing all of it and first focussing on the teamplay would be a blessing currently. Better still would be to leave squads, platoons and outfits alone, do nothing with them, and focus on the teamplay.
  9. pnkdth

    Oh, that is not what I meant. Cool, I'll let continue your monologue then. Have fun.
  10. Demigan

    It is what you said. Feel free to clarify.
  11. pnkdth

    If you've ever seen that videoclip of the reporter constantly going "so what you're saying is..." while constantly hammering in her forgone conclusions in whatever the interviewee said you have a good idea as to why I'm ducking out of this discussion with you. You keep repeating the same lie and make sure it sounds like I'm refuting something I've said myself. Very dishonest of you but I see that it is more important for you to copy/paste your own thread in here than having a discussion. Not that I'm surprised at this point.
  12. TR5L4Y3R

    THIS is the most important, not new content ..
    new content like maps or new toys always only temporaly keeps players intrested, if at all ..

    the general system how PS2 is played how players should be encouraged to play needs to be changed ..
    currently the game encourages still too much lonewolfing and isolated playstyles ..


    XP gain archievements and personal progression:

    the primary big reason is that the game focuses way too much on kills, and that is almost all players care about ...
    you play infil? KD, HA? KD, LA? KD, ... medic? ... flipping KD ... while it should be about participating in basefights, basecapture and pointholds ... kills need to become a secondary matter only ...

    how that needs to be done

    reward (more) the aspects that matter to this game, show/put directly upfront the data that matters to this game ...

    - kills should be only rewarded as a bonus
    what should matter is that you are participating in a basefight in the first place, primarily a basefight that matters to the coreaspect of the game to actualy capture/fight over territory, the simple action of damaging any opponent needs to be rewarded and immidiately (not after the target has actualy been killed, that should be just another bonus with killassists) by damageribbons

    - the fight is happening in a actual capturable base that is close to the frontline or in enemy teritory? then give a XP boost even just a slight one, you are actualy fighting close to a capturepoint with enough resistance? give a further slight xpboost ..

    - the same needs to be done for achivemeants, achievemeants need to be about damage dealt, time someone spend or XP gotten while participating in base/pointcapturefights .. it doesn´t matter if he just healed people, repaired turrets, gave ammoboxes or just tanked damage for others, scouted or disrupted the enemy ..

    the very mindset of the players needs to be changed so they stop thinking that kills are the primary cause for their personal progression ... (that doesn´t mean kills don´t help in basefights)

    balance and propper (but also more flexible) combined arms:

    for years infantry has little chance to fight vehicles and aircraft ... what that leads to is isolated gameplay were infantry has little choice but to hide within basewalls or large ammounts of armor ... they always need vehicles or aircraft to fight vehicles or aircraft ... infantry itself needs to be able to be a threat to vehicles and aircraft ...
    vehicles do provide clear fire support to infantry but don´t require infantry support at all ... with infantry being ballanced so they can be and are a threat to vehicles they then can provide their support to vehicles, that is not just about repairs ...

    the same goes for vehicles and infantry vs aircraft ...
    aircraft is strong enough (too strong in areas) by itself it doesn´t need groundbased support at all but is always a prime threat in battles that has targets out of basestructures .. again both vehicles and infantry need to be more of a threat so they can both fight but also support aircraft ...

    how to do this?

    give infantry more AV/AA options ..

    - give the medic a rockletrifle primary, a AV grenadelauncherprimary and access to av grenades so he can defend themselves when chosing f.e. to support engineers on repairduty for vehicles and maxxes ...

    - Maxxes require more surviveability, so they don´t need to hide in spawnrooms and be able to actualy tank damage that is meant for squishy medics and engineers, let them tank more shot from vehicles ... give them additional abllities so they can provide support that is not limited to firepower to the infantry they are fighting with, such as a infantryammobox, maybe a shield regenerator, various types of radar for the intended role of the max to maybe also support vehiclecollumns...
    balance bursters to deal damage vs light and heavy ground armor so they aren´t helpless vs harrassers and can at least provide a bit of damage vs tanks .... let light armor vehicles only damge maxxes tan to have them insta road kill it ....
    buff the existing AV options to do propper AA damage, give it more NS options such as fury, bulldog and maybe walker f.e.

    - give the infil access to AV grenades so it isn´t naked against a vehicle, maybe even allow a bit AV specops play with small infilgroups ...
    give it access to the rockletrifle as a primary weapon ASP option as a further way to specialice into a AV role while sacrificsing AI-capability ...

    - engineers should at least have their current turrets get a higher pitch to attack aircraft ... but should also get more turretoptions
    (flak, pelter/hyenatype, bulldog- or halberttype, ES vehicleturret- or max AVvarriant)
    offer rocketlauncher and/or rockletrifle as ASP option for deployeable slot or primary weapon

    - vehicles need their AA options buffed along with additional options such as pelters, hyeanas and A2A locks that however still can be dumpfired at vehicles, maybe even a difficould to aim but hard hitting VLG/hornettype turret ...

    ironicaly ESF secondary weapons need to be buffed for AA as well .. hornets are extremely dificult to aim for the little damage they do even if they are meant to be tankbustingweapons, coyotes are scrap compared to hyenas, A2A locks also could get a slight buff ...

    by doing all this or what the goal of it should be is so infantryplayers are not forced to stay in isolated bases any longer but CAN go outside of a base and fight against and along vehicles and aircraft .. with infantry having a level of survivability through MAXXsupport but also being a threat by having propper AV and AAoptions it could be taken into consideration to have vehicles be allowed to participate not only just in basefights but maybe also fight closer to capturepoints that aren´t just empty vehiclecapturepoints ..
    maybe open up bases that have vehicles locked out through walls ..

    it would allow for more playstyle diversaty between classes and not just force players to make extreme/hard choices such as f.e. play medic being incapable of AV unless with a vehicle of his own which then becomes usless the moment said medic vehicle using player gets to a base that is walled off for said vehicle ...
    players overall get more options to combine assets to weigh out their advantages and weaknesses within squads and platoons ...

    i apologies if some parts are not well explained but i think you get the overall idea, at least i hope so..
  13. Demigan

    On the subject of reporters, are you trying to be infowars? You say I lie yet you are completely empty-handed as to why I would be lying.
  14. Johannes Kaiser

    Guess I'm the outlier here, caring about playing with people I get along well with and working together to outsmart enemies or fighting dirty to hold the base for a minute longer. I don't care how often I die on the way as long as in the end someone gets to the Sundy and blows it straight to hell (don't pass GO, don't collect 200 certs). If you offer me the choice between a 50 killstreak and running with a Harasser off a cliff and on top of an enemy ESF whose pilot probably dies from a heart attack because of it, I'll take the second without hesitation. Because it's awesome! (Yes, that happened once while a friend, whose driving style might best be described as "robust", was behind the wheel, we couldn't stop laughing for ~5 minutes.) Killcount for me is like a bandaid when the rest went badly that day, or an additional cookie when things went well. But not more than that. And I know I'm not the only one there.
    For those for whom the endresult counts - and if the way there is epic, bonus points - this is a chance. As I said before, I do share certain worries, but I am more than willing to put them aside and see what the update brings for that playstyle (and yes, I will not be above nuking myself with a portable OS to achieve my objective, and those who have a problem with that tactic may follow my victims straight to hell, don't pass GO, don't collect 200 certs :D).

    Seriously, the pure mention of the new gadgets got quite a few people riled up on our summit on Sunday, and they are eager to play now. Epic moments, fun, teamplay, that's what we are looking for. What we see, is a way to make what we do even more epic, even more cool and fun. A way to deploy something and implement it into our system to make it work even better.
    Maybe the update and all it brings will fall flat. It almost certainly will be used in quite unfun ways by certain zwergfits (not a typo, that one is intentional). But it's also something that can be used to have a lot of fun with, and some memorable moments.

    And if you want to be a part of that, feel free to join us! We are looking forwards, for we know no fear!
    This post was not intended for recruitment, but after that piece of positivity, I felt the need to invite everyone who's interested in sharing that for all it's worth. :D
  15. Blam320

    I think Escalation is the most perfect direction the game could have taken. It places emphasis back on the intended metagame of gathering lots of players together to pursue common goals, and it gives us the biggest carrot-on-a-stick to chase possible: player-controlled Bastion Fleet Carriers. Literally something that's been asked for and teased since the game launched.

    Outfits happen to be the best way to organize players to achieve these goals, and people have also been asking for more Outfit-related activities since launch. I, for one, am very excited that they're giving more relevancy to Outfits beyond "It's just a gaming group I happen to be in." Now you're looking for a group you really enjoy playing with, and need to build up loyalty to unlock cool new rewards in a sort of prestige system.

    On top of that, people have been asking for a change to the metagame in general; believe it or not, but just grinding stuff gets super stale. There needs to be method to our madness beyond "sit in this farm and get kills until I get another medal." This update gives us all three: It's an outfit-related activity designed to organize players into big battles over metagame resources, that in turn enable us to create and use the most anticipated player tool of all PlanetSide history. It also happens to give us an incentive to want to control the continents; more territory means more resources earned, so then your faction can acquire that tide-turning Bastion a bit quicker.

    I'm sorry that you think a game should revolve more around the grind instead of the camaraderie of working for a common goal.
  16. The Grand Crusader

    The funny thing about the Bastion Fleet Carrier is its not even the same model as the concept design version. Higby wanted it to have massive turrets and cannons on the underside of the carrier with a flight deck for landing/repairing ESF's. If I remember correctly it was even suppose to have a usable bridge you could explore on. I guess the new dev team decided that was too much work and cut it. Which really sucks because its half as good as it could have been with the old concept.

    Other than that I think the update is overall a good thing for the game but, I do somewhat agree with the OP about reworking current systems/mechanics and updating older content in the game. For example most of the Auraxium weapons do NEED an overhaul. They are underwhelming to say the least. Most of them if not all were atleast nerfed once because of certain newer players complaining about them. You should feel like you earned it and get rewarded by having a fairly better weapon compared to non-auraxium weapons.
  17. JibbaJabba

    The greatest thing about Escalation is this: It shows significant investment into the game.

    It *IS* adding content. Maybe that content is not your cup of tea. I know some of it won't be for me. But someone out there likes it and they'll join our beloved sandbox and play with us.

    Wish you guys could be more positive sometimes.
    • Up x 4
  18. LineTrap

    Outfits exist to deploy and maintain Sunderers so that I can comfortably spawn into bases.

  19. Scrundle

    I'm recently back to the game after the best part of a year away, and I'm quite happy to see that development is still happening, however, I don't think there's anything in escalation that is for me. I've never joined a planetside outfit not in 1 and not in 2 and I don't see that changing. I'll join a squad/platoon when I get online but I'm not joining an "outfit" so that I can have some dumb tag in front of my name and an extra comms channel where everyone will spam the latest fresh memes at me. And so I won't see this content except for being on the receiving end of the swarm of free ESFs that will blot out the sun.

    But hey, if it's good for the overall health of the game then I'm happy with it I guess.
  20. Demigan

    As if outfits are needed at any point in time to accomplish that. Have you ever seen how a battle progresses? How rando's will also pull Sunderers because they want the spawn XP?

    Oh wait I forgot! Deploying a Sunderer is mightily difficult! You need to be able to drive along the road until you reach a Sunderer Garage, or a place a bit out of sight near the enemy base, and deploy it! Some mightily advanced team coordination right there!
    Seriously the most difficult thing around Sunderers seems to be getting people to realize that the Sunderer Shield and Sunderer Blockade armor exists and will protect the Sunderer from most C4 attacks. Funnily enough the Outfits seem to struggle just as much with that concept as the Rando's.

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