Engineer class needs serious rehauling.

Discussion in 'Engineer' started by Fatboy, Nov 22, 2012.

  1. Silent255

    We were supposed to get an AV Turret but I guess that was scrapped the last week of testing. The turret always has been, and remains as such, used as a giant SHOOT ME rave square with a gun attached. I get a good 10 seconds in on my turret until either, A. Sniper, B. Rocket, or C. Infantry that was on my flank or was a good shot.

    The thing has a cof and bloom that is unbelievably painful to see. It has the spread of a shotgun, diminishing its effectiveness greatly at any range over, I'd say, 30+ meters. My settings may be borked but the thing is too damned sensitive as well...turn the mouse and it's herky-jerky in whatever which direction. The damage is nothing to be proud about either.

    Something has got to give. The faceplate is obnoxiously blinding, especially at night, and narrows your field of view. The faceplate offers little to no protection, people kill me just fine from shooting me head on and any competent sniper can kill you....hell they have multiple tries to land a headshot if they're using a bolt simply because I can't notice. Reduce the rate in which the bloom increases and give us a tighter cone of fire. Hell...maybe up the damage or not. Have the faceplate offer actual protection...field of view already sucks in the thing, give it more of a riot-shieldish appearance and functionality. What I mean by that is give it a square shield that slightly folds on the sides, is slightly taller than the user with an open visor large enough to see out of (so it is still able to get sniped in the face or from an elevated position) and fire into.

    Hopefully with those adjustments, it'll be a more effective weapon in terms of field and indoor use, and better protection for the user. With the design of the shield remodeled, hopefully a single rocket from any direction doesn't gib the user....the turret should blow up before I do in my feels ***-backwards at the moment. The turret has more survivability than me. Should rockets kill the person in one hit if they DIRECT HIT HIS BODY, yes, but he shouldn't die because the rocket hits the front of the POS excuse we have for a shield.

    It is meant to be a suppression and area denial unit. Right now it's an impractical deathwish that I wish I could put something more useful in its slot.
  2. Johari

    AV turret hasn't been scrapped. It's still in the works trying to get balanced and working to a standard that it isn't completely useless or dominant against vehicles.
  3. Silent255

    Well I can be happy about that...hopefully they give us a DIFFERENT turret rather than giving us the same garbage with a different gun attached in the center....and that different gun actually be useful.
  4. blaze32

    I think a good fix or cert would be to allow anyone to use the turret you placed (except max) I thought it was this way at first but i learned fast that it is not possible. It should be added! like if you agree!
  5. vampwood

    Give us back beta level of power on it >:)
  6. Nerazim

    You guys are using it all wrong.

    It's supposed to be deployed as a step so you can jump up onto a ledge
  7. RayDrazon

    I agree that the turret could use some work although the main thing I use it for is to just stick in a doorway when capturing a point. There are way too many idiots who just run up to the turrets side and start shooting at it >.< It makes a perfect decoy 90% of the time.
  8. HuskerUK

    Don't forget the ammo pack. Best tool the engy has got.
  9. Pseulak

    When deployed much higher than your targets, the turret is pretty decent. You don't really have to worry about someone sniping up at you due to them not being able to get LOS on your head. If you have good distance, infantry units have a rough time removing you from the position since you can just duck, backup and LOS completely and repair/place another turret and start blasting again. The door blocking utility is just hilarious to me.
  10. Dakkaface

    Including your own bullets. Deploying a turret in a choke point nets you and your allies grief points for shooting your turret.

    That's because with the absurdly low number of deployable mines, they get used more like C4 than mines. 2 will kill any vehicle without a mineguard, but 2 is all you get, so rather than throw them down and hope you're not wasting resources, most Engineers will rush up to a vehicle, toss down two, then sprint away. They're a common cause of Sunderer explosions.

    Wire-guided rockets I don't think the Engineer should get. It used to be the NC specific rocket launcher in PS1, and I'd like to see the Phoenix make a return - Rockets should remain a vehicle and HA thing. Mortar would be cool, but I fear it might end up either being a grief machine or not being able to hit anything without setting it up on a hill and firing down with direct fire, much like the Flail from PS1.

    Personally - I think the AV MANA turret should be a tripod mounted anti-tank rifle. 2 shots before overheat, does slightly less damage than the Falcon (NC MAX AV weapon), bullet projectile. Like the current MANA turret, it's not going to do much by itself, but it gives the Engineer a ranged AV tool, and en-masse they can do some real damage.

    Definitely agree on letting other players take up the turret. There's no reason for the turret to be personally locked.
  11. Wibin

    This isn't those games.
  12. Ronin Oni

    AV and AA turrets are confirmed in the works slated for addition early next year.

    Some sort of deployable shield is additionally in the works.

    Neither remote control nor turret sharing are IMO 'mandatory' but this game is under constant development so feel free to discuss.

    As for the head gap in the shield... that's so you can see. However, I could see having 'B' (deploy/change fire mode) activate the face shield.... which would somewhat obscure your vision with the semi-transparent shielding.
  13. Snifnix

    I do agree. The engineer needs some design attention.

    What annoys me to no end is that I thought mines would go on a different slot as it kinda seems that way. But it didn't. It pushed out ammo pack which just seems wrong to me. If it had to push something out, it should push out the turret and not the ammo pack. Ammo pack is part of the basic engineer function IMO. Turret isn't.

    EDIT: Oops, found this info. Had no idea. Engi still needs work though.

  14. Shotgunjoe

    Bring back the PS1 auto turrets! :D
  15. Ezekius

    I do think that anyone should be able to use a deployed MANA Turret. It would be nice if there was different types of guns available for it as well. Like AR Rockets or something.
  16. blzbug

    The thread topic is that the Engineer class needs serious overhauling. So far, all I'm seeing is people griping about the turret. If the only evidence of engineer weakness is the turret, then the engineer class is just fine. It needs more fun toys, but it hardly needs "overhauling".

    The turret does suck. Plenty of threads on that. Find creative uses for it. Turn it into an ammo pack (hit B). Wait for more variants to come out, soon hopefully.

    The engy has TONS of other utility to bring to the table. Repairs, AP mines, AT mines (either placed or rushed), ammo resupplies. These are all very useful jobs that can turn the tide of a battle. Not to mention just shooting schit up with your carbine :)

    Engineer class is just fine. It can be better of course, but if you don't feel like your engineer is contributing to the fight, you're doing it wrong.
  17. Ruvan

    Engineer is a support class. I repeat. Engineer is a support class. Read the first three sentences again, just in case.

    People that whine about the MANA turret need to recognize that it is not meant to be brilliant by design. Engineers are a support class (just in case it hasn't sunk in) and have things other than combat they can do, therefore, they cannot be brilliant at combat.

    The Engineer class is not broken by a long shot. In fact, it is on the verge of being overpowered simply due to the versatility it brings in comparison to other classes.

    Consider that Engineers can:
    • Repair vehicles (essential in good tank battles), MAX suits (essential in good infantry battles), terminals (nearly as good a mechanic as hacking) and generators (essential in base control).
    • Destroy enemy vehicles with mines. Engineers are better at taking out Sunderers than the classes whose design revolves around destroying vehicles (i.e. heavies and AV MAXes).
    • Carry insane amount of C4.
    • Use the MANA turret, which can be completely brilliant in some situations.
    • Use the powerful unbarrel gun attachments.
    • Use battle rifles to become a half decent sniper.
    • Lay down ammo. Absolutely key in sustained infantry battles and in situations where infantry is fighting planes/armour (i.e. reload heavy rockets and burster MAXes).
    All this and Engineers are nearly as good as other classes in a straight up fight.
    • ROFLSTOMP infiltrators at close/mid range. Kill bad ones at long range with battle rifles.
    • Equal of Light Assault if not flanked.
    • Only at a slight disadvantage to medics. Easily overcome with clever play and use of class mechanics (e.g. MANA turret).
    • Large disadvantage to heavies, however, they can be countered the same way as medics.
    • Will get owned by MAX units without clever play (as you should), however, C4 and MANA turrets are good counters to MAXes.
    In my opinion, Engineers are pretty much the most useful class on the battlefield now. A good one can make far more difference to the team than any other class.
  18. Dakkaface

    Or maybe it would feel that way if it was able to do all of those things. Seriously:
    Yes! Working as intended.
    Yes. Probably not intended. Side effect of low capacity mines with high power and little persistence.
    4 is insane? Did you play the original Planetside? You could have 10 boomers there.
    Vanishingly few in number if all you intend it for is a weapon. Basically defending biolab airpads and that's kind of it. Door blocking, decoy, mobile cover and stepladder all seem to be more common uses of the turret.
    So can LA. LA also can get into positions to use them more effectively.
    Battle rifles don't make half-decent snipers. Bullet velocity on most carbines is greater, and the Gauss Compact S and AC-X11 both have the same upgrades and bullet velocity, allowing shots of the same inherent accuracy at range, AND have high velocity ammo available to them, allowing them to extend their effective range beyond what battle rifles are capable of hitting at. The only thing battle rifles currently have on the carbines is raw damage, and it doesn't appear to be THAT much higher, since we still don't have the data on damage drop-off for the rifles.
    Hey! Second thing apparently working as intended.
    If they're carrying a carbine, yeah, rock face in close range, if your settings are higher than low and you didn't get knifed. Mid range, possibly. As noted, battle rifles are seriously lacking at long range. You can't kill bad infls at long range. Mid range, MAYBE, if you're lucky and the infl isn't already aiming in your direction, because you'll just get headshot in that case.
    I'm sorry, what's LA's schtick again? A mobile jetpack for attacking from unexpected places and times - i.e. getiing the drop on people, i.e. flanking. LA's gonna flank.
    The Medic has a self heal, a much harder hitting and more accurate gun, and the ability to get his allies back up after your mines/carbine kills them. The Medic is generally more capable in a straight up fight.
    MANA turret is not a counter. The counter to Heavies is AP mines (which you can get only 1-3 heavies with). MANA is a fortification used for defending a point, not something one can walk around with an shoot heavies with when you see them.
    All infantry will get owned by MAXes without 'clever play.' Not sure how clever you consider running around a corner and dropping C4/shooting a rocket/grenade.
  19. Ruvan

    MANA turret is a counter to heavies, at least the way I use it. Sometimes, when I see a heavy in a situation in which I cannot win in, I tail it in the other direction. When I have gone a short way (usually around a corner or in to another room), I shove my MANA turret down. Said heavy turns the corner and gets a MANA turret to the face. Doesn't always work but does sometimes.

    Other stuff to counter heavies:
    • C4 on the wall next to the door where they are coming in.
    • Ditto for sticky grenade.
    • Unbarrell grenade launcher.
    • AP mines (as you have previously stated).
    • Catch them without shield up!
    I'm not saying you can do all these things at once. However, they are all options.
    The BEST thing you can do to counter more most heavies is to cover to destroy their shield. The only real thing they have on you in an infantry fight is their shield. Their guns are less accurate and kill slower than yours. If you cover after the heavy activates his/her shield, even for a second or two, then it is likely that it will be significantly depleted.

    Bar the covering you can use similar tactics against MAX units. MANA turrets are arguably even more effective against MAX units as their accuracy sucks at range and their slow movement speed makes it easy to headshot them with the turret.

    P.S. I'm not getting at you here, as your post is constructive. However, it is considered better practice on forums (by some at least) to quote someone's whole post and reply to it, rather than breaking it up (called quote wars). It leads to easier to read posts with arguments that are easier to follow.
  20. Dakkaface

    You'd probably get a similar success rate by shooting him in the face with your carbine, and you wouldn't have to wait for the carbine to deploy.

    Not a single one of these is unique to Engineers. Sticky grenades might be Engy only, but everyone has plain grenades, the underbarrel launcher is also on LA, AP mines on Infils, Shields and C4 for everyone.

    LMG's are either more accurate at range or murderous in CQC - I rarely win toe-to toe fights with heavies without trying for headshots.

    I'll grant they're often effective on MAXes over 25m away. However if that MAX is on his own, he deserves to die. If he's not on his own, his buddies are probably flanking you while you try to mow him down with your turret. If the MAX is 15m or closer, he's just going to charge and get past your turret, then ventilate your face.

    I've seen just the opposite - most forums I've been where debate occurs have don't discourage multi-quoting. I may break up another's post, but it makes me respond to each part of the post rather than ignoring some arguments and cherry picking those I can address. It's no harder to read than putting it all into a big block or a few paragraphs and shows exactly which points I respond to.

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