End work on Lattice now before any more effort is wasted.

Discussion in 'Test Server: Discussion' started by FrankManic, May 2, 2013.

  1. Nocturnal7x

    no, currently the strategic play is boring "ghost cappping" and the fun play is just farming at a base, often a disconnected territory, with no strategic importance. Lattice will bring importance to more fights, new strategies will emerge, strategies that arent so damn boring.
    • Up x 2
  2. LordMondando

    Its not about jumping to conclusions. If you'd been at either of the two stress tests of the new system that were actually population, you'd likely have noticed the population imbalance issues as well.
  3. Aesir

    The Lattice is needed. Period. As to why? There are several good reasons but the most important one is that this is PlanetSide, if it's not 60+ vs 60+ it's not PlanetSide ...

    The Hex system waters down the battles to small skirmishes, you can have those on every other game, like Battlefield, which by the way does a better job at skirmish sized combat.

    To stand out from the crowed of other games PlanetSide needs be unique compared to similar games, like Battlefield/Frontlines/Homefront and all the likes. PlanetSide is about scale, the Hex system takes away the scale.

    PlanetSide on a squad to platoon level of meta game comes down to tactical choices, not strategical choices. Big Outfits maybe on the strategical meta game to try and pull something off with split pushes on 2 lanes or similar.

    Instead of "Why the Lattice?", you should be thinking on "How to improve the Lattice?". If you want small scale battles, I'm sorry you picked the wrong game, PlanetSide 1 was all about scale and PlanetSide 2 is heavily advertised to be the big hundreds of players slugfest. And to be honest, it's a untapped spot on the entire games Industry, they should embrace it, not shut it out.

    Single Players/Squads/Platoons will still have big impacts on the battle. You have to think outside the box, the lattice is just your connection not your main road you can always go around a base and increase the angle of attacks.

    PlanetSide 1 battles were layered in several major steps to capture a base. First you need to establish Vehicle supremacy around a Base/Outpost/Tower. Once you got that you need to keep them from reinforcing via outside sources. Than you caped the main bases tower(in PS2 you can say Satellite). And than you went into the inside of the base.

    Once you cleared the Inside you could shut down the Spawn, which should be something PS2 needs and will get to what I have seen with disabling the spawn shields.

    Bases in General needs to be more defensive against Vehicles, which is something they are working right now if you take a look at how the Outposts have changed.

    I see no reason to keep the current Hex system, it's Battlefield-style, which is not PlanetSide. You want skirmish squad on squad, go and play Battlefield and if you think it lacks the scale ... You should actually like the Lattice change.

    The lattice does not drain you of any options on a tactical scale. I'm pretty sure some think like "But I only have 2-3 lanes to chose from .." yeah, true but that's a strategical decision. A decision that only up to 5-10 players per empire should really have to worry about in PlanetSide, because they are Outfit Leaders ...

    Tactical choices is how you approach said strategical objective like pushing a Hex lane, you can go around the base if the terrain allows it, flank the base, isolate it from enemy Vehicles Support or charge it. You can go north of a base or west, those are choices that have impact, very great impact.

    You bring 5 Tanks with AA support up on the hills of Quartz Ridge Camp ... you will have a very good spot to shell the inside of the base, allowing the zerg to tear down the main gate. This is what your meta game on squad-platoon level should be ... not "How do we best delude the Zerg over 4 bases" .... This is bad, since this is not fighting.

    The Lattice forces fights, which should be the main aspect of the game to 99% of all the Players ... not strategical decision making ...


    We need the Lattice, there is no reason against it. You want small scale, play another game.
    • Up x 1
  4. TestyVenom

    Isn't this "PlanetSide 2"? Isn't the catch phrase "Size. Always. Matters."? Isn't that the whole premise of the game? Answer: Yes. This is a good thing. That is what "PlanetSIde 2" is all about (big fights).

    Um, what? If there are other players of the same Empire in the area fighting with you, enough to make it an even, or close to even, fight, then what is the problem? My Outfit typically takes on numbers greater than ourselves on a regular basis and we run with 4-12 members at peak hours; more than 12 and we have more than what is necessary to fight two squads or more in many situations.

    That is fine and dandy. I am sure that you will still be able to do that once the Rush Lanes are implemented. Consider the current population on any server at peak hours and think about the Alert system; it currently draws the majority of players on the servers to one continent and a new continent will be coming out soon. There will surely still be squad on squad fights, unless this game becomes massively more successful in a short period of time.

    This shouldn't even be considered as a reason to not implement the Rush Lanes unless the majority of the playerbase (assuming the average player is using an "average" gaming PC) is experiencing severe FPS issues in every fight involving platoons vs. platoons. I doubt this is the case seeing as I can keep an average of 30+ FPS in fights like that with my graphics settings almost at maximum (I just have Flora turned off and no AO or Fog Shadows, everything else on High and GPU Physics ON) and I am pretty sure I have a fairly average gaming PC. In the current state of the game, they should be considering the future of the game, too; this involves considering hardware improvements on the users' end and on SOE's end, and fluctuations in the number of players online at various times of the day. The Rush Lanes will help make the fights more obvious and directed, which will help players start battles and participate in them more effectively at both times of maximum and minimum players online during the day.

    I don't know where you get off thinking that I lack tactical know-how based on that post seeing as I never made a comment regarding tactics involving any base in that picture. That post isn't about tactics, it was making a remark about the major flow of battles. Due to the geography, it is impractical to attempt going straight from Ikanam Bio Lab on the ground to Auraxicom Network Hub, but not impossible. The point was that the layout of that area would indicate no reason for Auraxicom Network Hub to have influence on Ikanam Bio Lab and vise versa. I see you have baseless insults down, but arguing still needs some work.

    One more positive thing that comes to mind about the Rush Lanes is that it will likely help new players get into the fights more easily and learn the game faster. Who doesn't want that? It really seems to me that no matter how many frivolous negatives one can come up with about Rush Lanes, there are many more strong positives about it that easily outweigh the negatives.
  5. LordMondando

    Again, for the N'th time. Population imbalance issues.
    • Up x 3
  6. SiosDashcR

    And this is exactly why I don't bother arguing back anymore. We'll be cut throat at it for hours and it's not worth spending any extra minute making another argument as I've done before.

    Case and point, if it happens - it happens. If not, then so be it - I'll be enjoying the hex system, still.
    • Up x 1
  7. TestyVenom

    Population imbalance isn't necessarily a valid argument against the Rush Lanes/Lattice System. An imbalance of population would be and is a problem in any case; the Rush Lanes/Lattice System just reduce the likelihood that one member of the lower pop. Empire will sneak around opposing platoons and start capturing a base by himself. What's so bad about that? I wouldn't say it is fun for people to do that or to be on the receiving end of that; I would say that the prevention of such things would be a good thing. I am all for the Rush Lanes/Lattice System. Let's just hop that when/if they redesign the bases to work with it that it is done well.
  8. LordMondando

    Its not an argument against it, its an observation from actually playing it with imbalanced populations, that its going to exacerbate the pre-existing of a problem the game suffers from quite regularly. The first stress test on the test server of the lattice. Population was something like 2:1 TR to NC (it started out as something stupid like 62% TR), essentially it reduced to being zerged at a series of bases, then waiting for the forward elements of the zerg to turn up, having a bit of a fight, being overwhelmed as soon as the cap went through on the last one or shortly before. Having to move back to the next base, repeat. Or you could go to one of the unpopulated lanes and ghost cap. Really not fun.

    The second stress test, the populations were much closer to 1:1 and so we had a descent fight at peris for about an hour and yes that was fun (if a bit stalematey). Suddenly, the TR just evapoured to fight the VS (abusing the **** out of ZOE+Flamethrowers so hard to get a good handle on that) assumedly to shift to zurvan. TR population then tanked as they rage quit due to ZOE+flamethrowers OHK abuse on the Vs part. We then basically ghost capped towards crossroads, then the VS zerg turned up ,again now 2:1 our number and bugabusing. We then were ground back to peris again, by then most NC players also rage quitting.

    We also have done a few smaller tests, we in the miller community. Which also appear to show this, either the populations are equal, or you steamroll or be steamrolled. Neither of which are particularly engaging experiences.

    Need more tests, but as I've noted dozens of times elsewhere and other commentators who've actually played lattice have noted. It does, appear to make the problem of zerg or be zerged worse. Or indeed, people just abandoning entire lanes to ghost cappers. The instances where this is not true require a population balance that is hugely precarious and rare across all the servers at present.

    I'd like for people to actually engage with this issue, as opposed to ranting about inane **** about ghost capping or asking me 'not to make assumptions'. I've played it, more than most. I also frankly, do get the game. This is a serious problem I see, not with the lattice system as opposed to some refinment of it. Its the problem I see with the larger strategic metagame, just revolving around taking territory in the new system.

    I also, as I've noted dozens of times also. Hate backcapping and ghostcapping and find it boring as hell. This really doesn't come down to hex vs lattice. It comes down to trying to give feedback that as a whole might improve the game.

    Mine is pretty simple at this point and can be condensed into the following TL'DR version.

    Lattice is not enough.
    • Up x 1
  9. Aesir

    Defensible bases and 3 Empires ... Which again is a reason for the lattice, since it will force the Zerg empire into more defensible places and allows the under poped empires to easier team up against them.
    • Up x 1
  10. TestyVenom

    The saying for PS2 is "Size. Always. Matters." If they could make it so that both sayings apply to PS2, that would be fantastic. I think the implementation of the Rush Lanes/Lattice System combined with continent locking will make that possible. I look forward to the future of the game and can't wait to see the state of the game in Spring 2014. The game is improving with each update.
  11. CptFirelord

    When the problem arises, I'm sure SOE will take a month or two to address it, like the Swagrider previously being OP
  12. Hosp

  13. LordMondando

    How do defensible bases solve the problem of population imbalance and not just make the issue largely work in the inverse?

    If they make every base a verdun, will that make the experience more fun?

    Moreover, given the imbalances im talking about (indeed my second case study actually includes all three 3 empires, though the bugabsuing muddies the waters). Its entirely possible we see states of affairs (indeed with more continents). Where one or both other empires effectively quit the continent (this happens loads at present on Miller) and leave the third to simply zerg the remaining defenders.

    Is not that simple. Unfortunately.
    • Up x 1
  14. TestyVenom

    Orbital Strike was postponed due to functional issues (bugs) from what a couple of people "inside" have told me.
  15. Ash87

    I can corroborate the statements Mondando made about the last two big stress tests on the Lattice from the TR side of things.

    My side of this, is that the lattice is a step in the right direction, but it's not going to be a fix for every issue in the game. Neither is Hex. I tend to think that the chaotic nature of the hex system (This is a system that works best on Large servers, whereas the Lattice can be better adapted for smaller servers), wouldn't benefit the game as a whole.

    Resources and pop balance need be added in, but once that happens the Lattice will be better off.
    • Up x 2
  16. UberBonisseur


    No, seriously.
    Biolabs are smaller than a CoD map.

    Facilities can hardly handle 400 players both in terms of processing and congestion. Massive fights are only good if those are spread out in some way, otherwise the base design has to change radically.
    • Up x 2
  17. Ash87

    Well from what I heard on FNO the other day, they are also trying to figure out how to balance it out amongst groups. I don't expect to see OS until outfit advancement comes into play.
    • Up x 1
  18. TestyVenom

    They're not dependent on one another, but they are definitely complements to one another. They work well together and would be quite enjoyable in PS2, I am sure.
    • Up x 1
  19. Aesir

    During the biggest test on the PTS, the NC held it's 3rd of the map, though we were heavily outnumbered, fighting both against TR and VS, we never were pushed past Hvar or Peris, we only lost Allatum at one point during the over 3 hour event.

    Knowing were the enemy will come to made it very easy and predictable. I personally jumped between both the Allatum and the Hvar lane facing the VS several times, grinding a 20% pop difference to the VS to an Halt. So much for Verdune ...

    edit. I also want to add that I never had that much fun in PS2 since the tech tests ...
    • Up x 1
  20. LordMondando

    Thats pretty much where I am as well.

    I hate being not able to find a fight, indeed playing more causal than outfit based on my TR and Vs have really hit this home as a problem in the current system.

    But lattice also seems to make the problem of just being zerged quite a fair bit worse. I'm really suprised more people are not noticing this at all. It seems very obvious if you actually come to a stress test. Then again a fair few people in support of it haven't actually bothered to try it yet and seem to be going off faith or nostalgia at the utopia that was PS1.

    Like PS1 though, it also needs other complementary systems in order for the game as a whole to be richer and not just with a different set of serious problems. I given PS1 is not an alien mystery to SOE, I'd be suprised if they were just ignoring the whole resource argument a lot of people are making. resource revamp was allways on the cards, but I think it needs to be more of a revolution than evolution of the current system.

    As to population balance, I struggle to think what can ever be done about that, beyond what allready exists. Conscript people into underrepresented sides on a given server?

    Though perhaps there is room for more changes to XP bonuses and even minuses that might help win some of the 4th fraction over.
    • Up x 1