End work on Lattice now before any more effort is wasted.

Discussion in 'Test Server: Discussion' started by FrankManic, May 2, 2013.

  1. zukhov

    No more so than the hex system. Currently its rare to see an empire cap a cont with anything under 50% of the population.

    I don't have a very high end system and have never had any major issues.

    It just makes it a lot harder for individuals to constantly flit around undefended territorys, ignoring terrain and defended bases totally. Its still possible to back cap and cut off using the lattice, it will just take real skill, not just the ability to crash land an ESF in the nearest connected undefended hex.

    Hex reduces the potential scale of PS2 to that of at most of platoon vs platoon, makes defence a waste of time, ends good battles prematurely, makes the terrain useless, negates any prepared defence, and thoroughly bores many people.
    • Up x 5
  2. Kumaro

    The systems now is not very different.
    Almost no defences and the best zerger wins.
    you try to defend but there are so many entry points that you can always just go around them.
    The biggest mass of bodies wins. And if you are two smaller groups it's a game of cat and mouse. The defender can't cover all entries. And the attacker can't keep all points down at the same time. In this scenario Tech labs favours attackers over defenders.

    Why does no one use turrets and walls for defence?
    There are to many ways to go around them there is simply no point.
    This is the reason everyone retreats into the core of the base since that is the only defensible area. And if you are lucky which is mostly most players are to dumb to go and take down the shield generators. -w-

    Give me a hybrid between the old PS1 and the new PS2 bases. - - = + right?
    How about a Let/hex hybrid?
  3. VSMars

    I actually have a 0.5 K/D ratio.

    I also have mines. Lots and lots of mines. ;) Well, that and full AV kitted out HA, Engie and Magrider setup as well as an AA HA setup, for when it's not just infantry I have to deal with.
  4. TestyVenom

    I love how FrankManic talks about how "complex" the Hex system is, when it's really just monotonous and .... manic! BAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
  5. Alarox

    It actually is far more complex than the lattice. Hex allows strategy on the macro level that a A->B->C tunnel shooter can't hope to match. Hex can sometimes have too many options, thus making predictability much harder, but strategy actually plays a role here.

    Planetside 2 doesn't have to be a mindless game.
    • Up x 1
  6. Alarox

    1.) When you limit the number of places people can be, you force everyone together. A smaller force can actually maintain more territory than a zerg in the Hex. Oh you take your whole zerg to my Bio Lab? I'll take 4 of your territories in that time with 2 squads. This is because I don't have to go into the Bio Lab. I can bypass the large zerg sitting there and take their territories they're too disorganized and/ore lazy to defend.

    Explain to me how the above is incorrect.

    2.) You're in luck. I play with 20-35fps generally, and this is after I've done everything possible to raise my FPS. Luckily, there's not always a giant battle to where I have to play at 20 or less FPS, and I mostly get around 25.

    Plus, there's crashing. It happens in large battles to people almost randomly.

    But mainly, there's lag.

    3.) Look at the map. You're wrong. When you have lanes, you can only move around between them at a major base. Once you go into a lane, you can't get to the territories behind it without first taking down that first base.

    When you focus everyone into fewer places and restrict movement, you create large masses of players. Obviously, the more people you have the less individuals effect a battle.

    In a 5v5 to a platoon vs a platoon, individuals can have a large effect. When you get more than that it diminishes quickly.
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  7. Eugenitor

    Friendly reminder: Good strategy games aren't supposed to be predictable. In any game of continental strategy, you can't demand that the enemy follow a predictable path, and you really can't just hole up in a base somewhere and demand that the enemy come to you. It obviates the whole concept of strategy.

    This is the extent of overall strategy right now: VS zerg overwhelms Allatum. NC falls back deep, and starts sending a platoon to empty VS bases a few ghost cappers have left in the southeast. (What? Do things other than sit there waiting for the timer? Hahaha! You funny guy!) Their zerg sweeps west, and actually starts taking more than one base at a time (something any good blitzkrieg should be able to do). We fall back under the onslaught, shooting rockets through spawn shields most of the time until some FCRW at Allatum wise up and sweep a platoon or two down to handle the threat. Brief carnage results, and now we're pushing them back.

    And that is apparently too much for people who demand to have orderly, predictable lanes for zergs to chase each other around in.

    You want people to actually fight each other instead of mass-attacking nothing at all? Okay. Remove all temptation to the contrary. Remove the capture bonus for being there when the timer ticks down; ghosts gonna ghost, but you don't need a whole platoon to do it. Remove KDR as a metric, and everything related to it; basically anyone who has the balls to stand up against a mass army is going to get a few (usually unattended) vehicle kills and plenty of deaths. Encourage people to be brave, give them no consequences whatsoever for dying (not even a mark on somebody else's kill list), and don't reward standing around at empty bases.
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  8. Eugenitor

    It's hilarious sometimes, especially with very low populations. One guy might not be able to fight an enemy squad effectively- especially not all of it at one time- but he can often run rings around it, because that squad just does not want to break up. Why would they do that? They might get hurt without overwhelming numbers!

    Sometimes I stop capping and go to defend a place that's being attacked by someone not in the squad. Usually it's a lowbie independent, who, paradoxically enough, is a bigger threat to my plans of continental conquest than the whole enemy squad is. He moves faster, takes territory faster, doesn't wait for anyone to catch up. He must be stopped, and so I stop him.. right until the enemy squad shows up.

    Now they're all together in one big group, all waiting for the one guy in the spawn room to come out. The independents I was fighting have probably joined the squad and are no longer so large a problem. I laugh, redeploy, and pull another Scythe. Threat neutralized.

    Funnily enough, this same rope-a-dope technique also works, with about a dozen times the players on each side, on certain zergfits that are better left unnamed...
    • Up x 3
  9. Consumer

    I do very much like the hex system! After months of playing with it from beta to now, it has provided a very refreshing layout to segue from battle to battle that I haven't played in other shooters which compartmentalize their maps. The freedom is very interesting to have multiple choices to attack or defend, to pick your battles from varying magnitudes, to strategically focus efforts, and so on.

    But I am sure I will adapt to the lattice layout should it be added. It's interesting and should help prevent ghost capping which I occasionally become annoyed by, but the limitation on the freedom of movement is a bit distasteful. I understand both sides and their benefits, but honestly, when it comes to the drawbacks, I would much rather sacrifice the pattern of ghost capping for greater and more intuitive choice of movement.

    However, one change I absolutely love from the lattice system is the division of the satellite bases around facilities into their own hexes.
    • Up x 1
  10. Gorganov

    I have to agree that limiting strategy is totally the wrong way to go. The lattice system worked in PS1 because invading a base was the main objective, and everything on the way to that main objective was meant to aid in the ultimate conquest of that objective. Instead of the lattice, other options should be explored. I have a few ideas.

    1. Bio Labs, Amp Stations, and Tech Plants should be high priority targets that naturally draws the zerg too them. Of course, this would require some sort of overhaul to how they are captured/defended. I'm thinking something similar to the influence system that acts more as a supply line....

    So you have supply tubes (like oil pipes or something) leading from the warpgate that act similarly to influence system. These lead to these high priority targets, and controlling more direct links to these targets increases influence.... I need to iron this out more but this is the general idea....

    This brings us to the lack of Metagame. There should always be something that allows smaller outfits/platoons to contribute to the main goal of warpgating the enemy.

    2. While keeping the current hex system, maybe you can combine several hexes into a super hex?? There are several spawn locations and supply nodes in each super hex that you can capture, which aid in taking the primary objective of the super hex. Basically, in order to take the super hex and have adjacency to the next territory, you only need to take the central super hex objective. In order to have supply nodes affect capture times you need them to connect to the warpgate.

    3. Besides all this, there needs to be more objectives that can possibly aid in the capture of a base. Hackable doors, more buildings that really aid in the defense of the primary point which allow for more focused defense. Bunkers that have one entrance? Placable forcefields and turret emplacements. All these things would aid in extended battles without being impossible to overcome...
    • Up x 1
  11. Aesir

    PlanetSide 2 is no strategical game, it's a tactical game. The every day guy should not have to be bothered with thinking were to go on the big picture.

    While the lattice takes away strategical gameplay elements ... maybe 5-10 players per empire on a Server really should have to think about stuff like that.

    PlanetSide 2 is about the battles themselves, not how you tricked the TR into fighting the VS while you as NC cap all the undefended stuff. This, in my opinion is not fun, this is boring.

    PlanetSide 1 spawned tons of epic moments, the ones people still remember. Things like "After 2 hours of fierce fighting we finally took the base".

    If the fighting itselve, meaning battleing it out with the other empires is to boring, I would rather see improvements on the tactical scale of gameplay.

    Playing ring around the rose might be a strategical useful, it's boring as hell. I rather see the Zergs forced into each other to duke it out.

    I rather find a way to break a base by going around it increasing the angle of attack on said base instead of just bypassing barriers in the terrain, which should actually form a natural Lattice! If we keep the Hex system every hill, cliff or similar natural barrier needs to wall off hexes. Which is something the Lattice actually does.

    Your tactical choices have more impact in the Lattice, compared to the Hex system. I play PlanetSide for the battles, which happen mainly on a tactical scale, not the strategical scale were everybody thinks he is the master mind and just ignores all laws of strategy to just bypass/ignore your force.

    Real strategy is limited by terrain, supply, resources, manpower and equipment. And the only of those things that matter right now in PlanetSide 2 is manpower.

    Hauling an Infantry squad airborne deep into the enemy terrain costs a lot of resources, because an Infantry squad would not go there unsupported. An real Infantry squad would not even have weapons to take out a Tank, a jeep, yes. To take out Tanks they need heavy AT weapons, but Javelins don't grow on trees and probably only every 5th squad out there has one and only one, meaning one shot.

    Air support isn't cheap either, fuel, guided weapons, all this costs more than ground pounding with Tanks(except the Abrams, fuel noming monster) and IFV's. Which is why main forces still do all this ground based and terrain restricted combat!

    All this stuff just get's plain ignored in PS2. Because nobody would do any supporting things and because we as human beings always search for the easy way out, which is to avoid fighting all together if we can achieve our goal otherwise. Which is what many do, some even do it organized and the moment even the slightest resistance comes up they pull out their squad/platoon and go somewhere easy, labeling it as "strategy".

    We need the Lattice, it's no all-solving-holy-grail-of-balance, however it actually forces fights. I came to play PlanetSide because I want to see the clashes of big numbers, not some BF style/sized ring around the rose combat. PlanetSide is about the scale and the tactical battles.

    You want squad sized ingame content? Well there is already enough of that there on the tactical scale ...

    Lattice>Hex, though Lattice alone is not perfect and needs improvement, the Hex system would require more real strategy to be really strategical(meaning real limitations that matter).
  12. VSMars

    • Up x 2
  13. Aesir

    You better should have linked this.


    They might say strategy to it, but all the named things are actually more influential on a tactical level.

    And by the way, non of the mentioned are in the game, except we get the lattice that is ;)

    edit. You should rather fight for the lattice if you take their advertisement as an argument ...

    but for realm you should fight for a resource system that matters more, than you can have your strategical goals ...
  14. VSMars

    Strategic actions influence things on tactical level? No, really?!?

    Snarky comments aside, the game's strategic layer suffers a lot and I don't see it getting any better in the near future. Maybe the resource revamp will help, but I'm not holding my breath. That doesn't mean the game isn't supposed to be a strategical one; SOE is just failing at that goal at the moment.
    • Up x 1
  15. BadLlama

    Lattice is by no means perfect and it will introduce new things that will suck and be painful but what it will bring outweighs the negatives by a long shot. We can now have fights that actually last for awhile and have some greater meaning over what the current HEX system brings. I am looking forward to this change greatly.
  16. Alarox

    Then we're of two completely different mindsets. I think using your brain in a game is far more enjoyable than shutting it off and mindlessly doing what 5-10 likely egotistical "leaders" tell you what to do.

    By the way, you can't call Planetside 2 "no strategical game, it's a tactical game." In the current state it IS a strategic game. You should rephrase that to "I want Planetside 2 to not be a strategic game, instead a solely tactical one".
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  17. Aesir

    They also fail on the one, way bigger advertised thing standing above strategical combat ... which is massive combat, we don't see that, because the Zergs more often than not avoid each other.

    Something the Lattice definitely will bring more than enough off. The Lattice is just a step in the right direction, it should not end there. It's more like band aid to fix the lack of battles, at the cost of some other problems.

    However those problems are in my opinion easier to fix and we get 1 of the 3 major advertised features, the one for which the majority signed up for back.

    At the cost of something only 5-10 outfitleaders per empire should really worry about in the first place. It's in my opinion a feasible, temporary cost, that SOE seems to be willing to take. In the next 3-4 months we probably will get the resource revamp to fix that issue and both sides will be more or less happy.

    From a business stand point they made the right decision, making more guys happy in the end while temporarily screwing the minority.
  18. Aesir

    How many of those zerglings out there think like that? 1-2% look on the map and say "ah If we cap this we can cut them off", the rest goes, "where can I find easy exp?".

    Maybe we are on complete different mindsets ... for me ...

    Strategy is what you do for the long term to effect the battle, meaning where you fight in PS2 and maybe force your enemy in a 3-way.

    Tactic is what you immediately deploy to have an immediate effect on the battle, meaning cutting off options available to players.

    Tech, resources, all this should have immediate and localized effect instead of long term effects like it is right now, this allows all the stockpiling to be useless and actually makes things way more interesting.

    Meaning resources or availability of certain Vehicles should not be part of the Strategical meta game other than base types.

    While all those very deciding things should be tactical, meaning within the reach of 2-3 facilities.


    To rephrase this a little, Strategy should be important, but it should not immediate effect and should be something that slowly affects the battle.

    Resources can be part of it, but it should be more like a long term thing, meaning that you can sabotage the income rate or make it drain or even transfer part of it to your empire.

    While tactical for me would be a complete cut off of resources or even destroying excising ones on a local facility.

    Meaning resources should be empire wide and not personal.
  19. Whiteagle

    But who is maintaining that Strategy?
    That's the thing, this isn't some RTS where you are just a unit following some unseen Commander's Point and Click Direction until the Win Scenario has been achieved, it's a persistent world FPS MMO!
    People continue to play the game for constant PVP and if that gets stale, boring, or worse FRUSTRATING they STOP PLAYING.
    This is honestly where my Second Life Combat experience gives me the more perspective on things like this, as EVERYTHING there was User Generated PVP content and if something was too "unfun" to deal with people would stop bothering with it at all.

    Is there suppose to be a Strategic Component here?
    Yes, but let me tell you right now that we're going to need more Continents to fight over first!
    Right now it's just three maps evenly split between three Factions, which means we're fighting over the SAME BASES day after day!
    You can only fight for a single outpost so many times before you get sick of it, so those of us who do play the game on a Strategic Level need to realise that the troops we direct are REAL PEOPLE who are doing this FOR FUN!
    If they don't find it fun, they're not going to be there for you to order around, so we're going to want their actions to have some kind of meaning instead of the same back and forth day in and day out.
    The way the original Planetside did it was actual Continent Locking; you simply didn't push a Faction to a Warpgate but all the way THROUGH one so you could continue to push on an entirely different Continent!
    Yes they had a few permanent foot holds somewhere, but you'd need to pull some serious Yang to trap them there.

    That's actually probably the issue with the Current Hex system, it wasn't designed for Intra-Continental conquest but INTER-Continental movement...
    ...But since we lack Intercontinental Oceans or the ability to go from one Continent's boarder to another, being able to go all over the map becomes pointless because we only NEED to go in two directions.

    If we ever get Oceans and Naval Combat, then I could see a place where the current system would make sense, but since we aren't fighting over mostly barren seas our forces need movement limitation just so there will BE fights to keep them interested.

    So to summarize:
    The Current Hex system was designed with GLOBAL Conquest in mind, but since we're only fighting Continental Land Wars all that freedom of movement is wasted.
    Personally I don't think this game will ever support the population densities needed to make the Hex System unusable for Ground Combat, especially considering the importance Warpgates are suppose to play in Logistics, but perhaps it will make a comeback when we have Oceans to fight over.
  20. Takoita

    Couldn't have said it any better. +1
    • Up x 1