Do the Ammo Types Need a Adjustments?

In another topic someone asked if Soft Point Ammo (SPA) was worth using (it is). I replied with how Wrel recommends using it when it is available since the downside isn't noticeable (this is true), especially on the type of guns that can equip it. This got me thinking about the two ammo types.
If you are rather familiar with SPA and High Velocity Ammo (HVA) you can skip the next two paragraphs.

SPA fills its role rather well, it extends your close range killing potential in exchange for slightly decreasing your bullet velocity. This goes rather well with the close range weapons you can equip it on since they don't really do well at range to begin with so it is no major loss.

HVA on the other hand. It increases bullet velocity while increasing recoil. While the increase in velocity helps hit things at range the increase in recoil hurts it. This means the downside of HVA is in conflict with the very thing it is suppose to help with.


What I'm wondering is; do the ammo types need adjusting? Does HVA need adjusting so it's downside somehow decreases close range performance but increasing ranged? Or is SPA too good for what it is and needs a downside that decreases it's close range effectiveness? So it becomes this odd situation like HVA where it improves your close range effectiveness while also decreasing it?

Suggestions:

For HVA they could increase the velocity and have it reduce the damage falloff rate. The new downside is it slightly decreases the damage (like by 5%). What this would do is increase it's close range TTK (since all guns are balanced around doing nearly perfectly 1k damage up close) but retain it's ranged TTK. For example the SAW takes 5 up close and 6 at ranged. The new HVA would take 6 both up close and at ranged (not factoring things like nanoweave).

For those in favor of nerfing SPA instead (not my preferred option but I am trying to be fair). Maybe it should slightly lower fire rate instead of velocity. You would lose TTK at ranges less than 10m (on most guns) but it would still be an improvement after that range due to not requiring an extra bullet to kill.

What do you guys think? Does it need an adjustment?

There are a lot more broken things out there. Dont suggest fixing what aint broken, SOE does that already anyways.

Decreasing damage drop off would make sense actually
HVAs downside is increased recoil which you DO notice.

Other than that, what ^^ said.
Dont fix things that arent broke or SOE may break them further.

Sorry no.
Try to understand how their mechanic actually work before you call for nerf/buffs.
They are both fine enough.
HVA maaaaybe slightly too good but not enough to need nerf.

wrel is wrong on SPA. SPA would matter on a 167 dmg weapon, where a slightest dmg drop off requires an extra bullet to kill, but on a 143 dmg weapon the spa doesn't help you much. velocity on the other hand is a huge deal, and is very much noticeable.

well, for me the benefits of these ammo do not justify the 100 certs cost.

• HVA makes weapons much harder to handle in automatic mode (see God Saw), and if you have no issue at leading targets they have no point IMO.
• On most weapons, SPA does not even grant you with 1 less HTK (hit to kill) so yes on some weapons it might be interesting to kill with 1 less bullet at very short range but it's not a all a general rule and might not be worth the cost.

This is why on most weapons I use neither of those.

+1 for Op
HVA is just plain useless. You may get around 5% more velocity but the increased recoil negates every advantage you get from having to lead your target a bit less.
SPA is for many CQC weapons an upgrade, merely a sidegrade. Higher TTK for 5 more metres against slower bullets, for ranges where bulletvelocity doesnt matter at all.

SPA increases the distance for minimum number of bullets to kill. It doesn't matter if the maximum damage of a weapon is 167, 143, or whatever, because in all cases the damage is set so as to result in exactly 1000 damage done over an integer number of shots. 200 -> 5 shots, 167 -> 6 shots, 143 -> 7 shots, 125 -> 8 shots.

Damage drop off (typically) starts at 10 meters, SPA increases this distance to about 14 meters. You'll be able to kill with the optimal number of bullets from a longer distance, no matter what the base damage per bullet is. And if you're using a Suppressor, you'll limit this range to about 5 meters - using SPA negates that disadvantage and sets you back to 10 meters at the cost of some bullet velocity.

not really.

7x143 = 1001. For a 143 damage gun whose falloff begins at 10m, SPA means you have another 5m before it takes another bullet to kill the target. Same situation for 167 damage/round guns, just one less round (6x167 = 1002.)

It's a pretty marginal difference, but the difference in velocity is so small that you're unlikely to ever notice it on most guns that can fit SPA.

I will say that in general it seems like the ammo types could stand to have more of an impact, although I'm not sure what it'd be really. The more extreme you make their effects the more likely they are to either become mandatory or fall out of use completely.

hm, yeah I see my mistake with the 143 dmg, sry. I was too focused on headshots in my considerations and didn't realise 7*143 is actually 1001 :O

Id just like to know the actual numbers in which HVA increases bullet velocity so you could actually tell if it was worth it.

Go to VR...

SPA = 1 less bullet to kill up to about 30m.
HVA = same number of bullets no matter what range, so it is useless.

HVA is not about amount of bullets to kill but about amount of lead on moving targets . VR has no moving targets (although they promised it quite a while ago .... ), so it makes no sense to test it there.

Why is it that anyone who puts their opinion into a YouTube video is instantly treated as some kind of expert? I don't follow Wrel but saw few of his vids linked on these forums and they were all bad.

The real drawback to soft point isn't the velocity(though if you combine SPA with the suppressor then it's like firing the Hyperblaster in Quake 2) but tier lower damage at max range.

The only fix that needs to happen is that armaments need to be assigned a damage/range value based on the physics of the ball and load. Arbitrary values do nothing for logical analysis.

The problem is, the forums would never be able to hack it.

The ammo types are fine, its the weapon that counts.

Lets say the NS 11c, it has terrible terrible velocity for a weapon of its type and the soft point is a bad choice as it will make it very bad for mid-long ranges.

No its not. Why keep people claiming that SPA and suppressor lower damage at range?

whatever you think of wrel he's at least out there doing primary testing of this stuff.

SPA doesn't reduce damage at range; all it does is reduce velocity slightly and increase the minimum falloff distance. It doesn't have any impact on how much damage your shots are doing in the back half of their falloff range.

High Velocity Ammo is in an identity crisis.

It doesnt know what its used for. Higher velocity is great fro longer rangers since you dont have to track targets by leading them so much. Its easier to react to them changing direction since your cross hair can be closer to their body. It also does speed up TTK at range since the bullets do get there faster, but only slightly.

But then it has the bad side of increasing both first shot recoil and sustained fire recoil. Recoil at long range throws your controlability off. With a high first shot recoil, it makes burst fire almost useless. Since every burst will have a large kick to it before it finally settles. At long range (50m+) burst fire is essential because even the smallest deviation from the source causes a larger deviation down range because of angles.

So with how HVA actually works it punishes the user for bursting at long range, yet is an attachment meant for long range...


Some weapons do work well with HVA since they have a low first shot recoil and low sustained recoil. However you have guns like the Gauss SAW, AX-11, Reaper DMR, TMG-50, Flare (more that i cant think of off the top of my head) that all are the long range options but have recoil that has to managed much more than their mid-close range counterparts to balance out their increased bullet damage so they arent headshot machines in CQC.

Compensator can help alleviate some of the recoil problem but the two effects do not cancel each other out all the time not to mention you lose the controlability of not using HVA to begin with. Almost as if not having any attachment at all, which again for very long ranges where these weapons are meant to be used, is less wanted.

So its kind of a meh attachment that really only fits into medium range fights where targets are running horizontally across your screen. I used to use HVA on everything, then after watching a few reviews from Wrel i took it off and noticed i was able to control my weapon MUCH better and actually get more damage on target faster because i could control burst far easier with less deviation.