Discuss: Overall change in LA's roll that I noticed...

I’d like to start a serious discussion with hopes that SOE people join in on it on the trend that SOE is pushing Light Assault to necessitate their play style to include group play. Scroll down for tl;dr plus debate topics.

Me, I have 22 days played in Light Assault out of a total 29 days played. That puts me with 76% of my BR 67 played time with Light Assault. In the past I’ve given multiple trainings for the class for Azure Twilight and been quite active with it on the forums as well. I like to think I’m extremely effective as a Light Assault player and I know there are many others out there who are also just as good if not better. I also am positive that many people find the class difficult to play when compared to other classes, as well as leaving one feeling that something is lacking for the class. I’m extremely disturbed by the trend that I see occurring with the class since launch.

My Opinion:
Light Assault is the least finished class since they don’t have a tool slot item. Higby himself has commented (back a bit after launch) that “Light Assault isn’t finished.” Every other class has more options for things to do/use than Light Assault. With that in mind, all we are capable of doing is killing enemies or spotting. That’s our only designated roll on the battlefield.

Since the launch of the Roadmap, we went from the first class to get a pass over, to the 2nd and then to the 3rd (after Infiltrators and Maxes.) Finally they took us and moved us to unscheduled, which would put us after Maxes, Infiltrators, Medics, and now even Engineers. Please remember that every other class has more “toys” than Light Assault. Currently Light Assault scores are only beaten as the lowest score per hour by Infiltrators. Currently only Medics are pulled less than Light Assault (ignoring Maxes due to their timer and resource cost.) Currently we have more people who don’t play Light Assault commenting and yelling at us on the forums, than those who actually do play Light Assault (especially Infiltrators.) Even with all of those issues, it appears that is possible Light Assault will be the LAST class to get a pass over.

Remember, the only thing Light Assault is out there for is to KILL, KILL, KILL. Yet there is a disturbing trend for SOE to introduce changes in the game mechanics to lessen the ability for Light Assault to be effective. Since the game has launched, Light Assault has been hit with more nerfs indirectly than any other class. C4 damage radius nerf, C4 despawning on respawn, C4 cert price change from beta, spawn beacons change, spotting nerfs, death fields around spawn rooms, and window shutters are just a few of the changes that happened before I started to log the game update version and number.

Since GU07, we’ve been hit with a nerf every single game update. Some might seem minor, but comparatively we are hit with changes in the game that affect Light Assault more than other classes.
GU07 – Jump Jet Volume Increase (direct nerf)
GU08 – C4 nerf against Sunderers (effects LA more than other classes)
GU09 – Flash Grenade Radius reduced (direct nerf)
GU09 – Walkways on towers above doors removed (effects LA more than other classes)
GU09 – C4 damage nerf against Liberators and possibly ESF’s (direct nerf)
GU10 – Daytime tracers are more visible (effects LA more than other classes)

The Trend:
What I see is that almost every change isn’t designed to single out Light Assault, but they do effect Light Assault, and almost all of them appear to be pushing Light Assault away from the solo route necessitating a team-play aspect. Please try to pause and consider that everything is really being made to be more difficult for them to function as a solo class.
The trend is there, it fits:
a) flanking/maneuvering is nerfed (windows, walkways removed)
b) multiple changes to make them less of a stealth class (tracers, death fields, spotting changes, JJ audio)
c) fundamental changes to explosives (C4 and Flash grenades are less effective)
All those and more effectively keep pushing LA towards the necessity to play as a team.

One of the huge problems with this trend is that Light Assaults don’t have any innate built-in squad abilities. Some really good Light Assault players can find good team-play aspects of the class, but they are invented on their own from the players perspective, not built into the class and obvious for everyone to see.

I worry that if the trend continues, the reason to pull and use Light Assaults will dwindle even further and the class will become much less than it actually is. Lots of people, when told that armor is coming, go and grab Maxes, Engineers or Heavy Assaults. Few think to pull Light Assault with C4. Lots of people, when told that Infiltrators are sniping go and pull their own Infiltrators, Medics, or Maxes to hunt them down with. Few think to pull Light Assault to flank the Infiltrators with. Going to assault an Amp Station? No need for Light Assault to get over those walls, we’ll just climb the walls with a heavy instead.

What I’d Like to See:
It is easy, fewer game changes that nerf the abilities of Light Assault. I’d also like to see us get that tool slot item. Those are the only two things I’d need and then I’d be happy, even with all kinds of small nerfs. Make those happen and I could stomach other changes. Instead what I do see is constant nerfs, with very little benefit coming our way.

tl;dr – Changes in game mechanics are making it more difficult with each GU for LA to play as a solo class

The Questions to Debate:

1) Does SOE even acknowledge that LA have low scores per hour PLUS are pulled a lot less than other classes?
2) When will SOE finally finish Light Assault by giving them a tool slot item?
3) Is SOE even aware that all of these small changes to the way the game works effect Light Assault more than other classes?
4) What is SOE’s vision of the roll Light Assault will play in the game that sets them apart from what other classes can do?

5) Finally the big one: Is SOE truly is pushing Light Assault to be more of a team necessary class in order for them to function? If yes, how are they going to change the class to make them desirable in a group over other classes, because the way things currently stand, every other class works better as a group than Light Assault.

More than anything I'd like to get feedback from other players who do some serious thinking about that last one. Is SOE pushing Light Assault to the necessity for them to be played more as a team class? I say yes, yet they do it without giving us a benefit for the team over other classes.

I'm doing my tour as LA right now and I agree, of all the classes they have the least defined role. However I think the sheer fun and freedom of movement the class offers makes up for it. That ability to just go wherever you want is awesome. I struggle to think what specific function you could give to them. They offer the ability for troops to attack facilities from unexpected angles.

The 'nerf' to the LA with the explosion sound when activating jets has been removed and now the thruster sound is about the right level IMO, it can be heard but it is not totally obvious.

I would like to see the Flash grenade addressed. I would like there to be an effect on a flashed target so you know that you have hit them. Currently it's not obvious if the grenade has affected them at all. I would also like some XP for any enemy taken down whilst affected by my grenade.

The most unfinished class is MAX hands down. Although Infiltrator comes as a close second.

Give LA's the option to take battle rifles, recon darts and possibly a very weak medic-tool and super slow ammo pack.

The BR always seemed like a LA weapon, but they dont have it, and the tools are to promote the work of mass LA's a tactic that is rarely used due to the necsessity of medics and engies.

Also a thin heavy assault shield, and a sprinkle of infiltrator cloak.

I agree with most of your telling, I love LA but it starts being cool only with 2 bricks of c4 and a good jetpack... It needs a few tools cheaper than c4 that would make him a "must have" in every squad. Somethings like:
- Cert tree reducing the timer of the spawn beacon/reducing its visibility
- New jetpack making it easy to cross great distances really, really fast but at less than 1 or 2 meters from the ground. (not helping to cross canyons so)
- Radar jammer (would make same effect as in CoD for example)
- Ability to carry 2 weapons/ twice as many ammo.
- ...

Not all these ideas would make it more interesting for teamplay, but just imagine a LA crossing really quickly the distance to the wall of an amp station, planting a radar jammer to avoid detection for the rest of the guys... Why not?

Agreed. I have also spent a lot of playing LA but find myself rarely playing it since the GU07 / 08 time frame in favor of HA and Max and that is mostly because of the changes you mentioned as well as changes to how battles play out now with lattice, capture point changes, battle size increases, and larger armor columns due to tank durability changes (lets call these meta changes).

To me the LA has become strictly a CQC and anti MAX class after these meta changes have come into play. The LA really needs more versatility as the battle now tend to be much larger and tend to take place in more open and outdoor areas. So many battles take place between two ridge lines now that the lack of any real mid to long range weapons make them completely useless in the vast majority of battles as the LA will likely be killed before they are able to get within effective range.

That being said I would love to see better options for mid and long range for the LA. Perhaps Assault Rifles or the Battle Rifle.

One of the most fun aspects of the LA is that it was really great for getting into places your teammates could not and in doing so swing the battle in your favor by taking out a defensive position, spawn point, etc. However, the meta changes now make this almost impossible as your chances of being spotted are much greater than they used to be. I would love to see some abilities that could bring this aspect back to the LA. Perhaps an ability that reduces the length of spot times or the range where you appear to enemies when spotted.

I also think LA's should get back the ability to solo a Sundy. I think the best way to do this is to leave C4 as it is but let the LA cert into AV Grenades and making it so 2 C4 + 1 AV Grenade takes down the Sundy. You are giving up the ability to use grenades against infantry and forcing an investment of 275 infantry resources in order to take it down. It would also make them fill the anti Max role a little better. I may be ok with making it 2 AV Grenades to increase resource cost and force the LA to run with the Grenade Bandolier and give up some of it's durability.

lol What? Are you serious? I think you meant to say the most OP class is max especially after GU9. Unfinished? in what way?

Someone just pointed out to me on another thread that the change where enemy health (vehicles especially) not showing up when they are more than 10m away also has a negative impact on Light Assault (us as much, if not more, than Heavy Assault because we have to get up-close and personal with our C4. This line of thinking is yet another game play aspect where distance fighting for Light Assault is nerfed and directly impacts us.

It also could be another support for my main discussion point, that SOE is pushing Light Assault more and more to run with a group (yet not giving us real group abilities.) I really think that since we will have no clue what the vehicle's (Sunderers) health is before we get near it, it shows they want us to run as a team of Light Assaults more. Anyone disagree that this doesn't push us towards the necessity to run as a group more often?

my card, Daibar
im the CO of the Xen of onslaught PS2 division, before i was CO, i was "Tactical officer" and "training officer".
so i've spent my time teaching the class and the game in general.

Today i spend some of my time training SLs and PLs except for when i want to play the game.
i've played this class for some 27 days since the game went live and i played since june in beta.
i have my share of LA knowledge.

just to share that i do not pose as something i'm not.

why does this score / hour even matter?
i seldom play anything else, but why does the score matter?
im proud of the fact that i've gotten better at collecting kills.

from this morning


if that's good, yes, from what i've read earlier around the forums and the posts done by Roguecomet, then i'm doing fairly well.
this morning was fun tho.
but why does that matter so much?
why do we care that heavies has a chance to earn more than us, if it's done per average, so what? that means we have some very talented guys out there and some seriously poor ones as well.

my avg Score/hour seems to be between 18k-24k depending on if i'm in a killing mood or if i'm teaching, in which case my S/Hour is going to suck something awful.

i've said it before, they don't know what to give us.
they mumbled something about dual vield and i'm biting the edge of the desk not to curse at them for that idea.
i've given my suggestions for tools for us, just a quick brainstorm, think it was around 19 different tool suggestions. perhaps they'll consider some of them.

i would hope that they develop like the rest of us, evaluate every aspect before they implement it, i'm a software developer by education, not code monkey, and our finest goal is to try to uncover all the aspects of each change that's requested or wanted to be implemented, hopefully they do the same,
i was pissing fury the day they put those shudders on the windows and closed them off to deal with "tank shells" ever since, i only fight in towers when we absofarckinglutely have to cross a tower to move on.

i doubt that they have one defined, when they ask us about what our role is, then you know they're in deep CACA.
i've given my views on the roles i have in my outfit, on the field and in the tactical room.
wonder what they are going to use that information for.

i hope not, i don't want my class to be one others have to need, to play their part, some of my SL's undergo LA training with me when they start their training. (updated my SL training course)
But i don't want my outfit to be dependent on a class that's primarily used for flanking, weather it's a sniper, groups of people, tank columns or liberators, as it is now, the class works fine, or to me it works fine.

i do not agree with the last bit, "every other class works better as a group than the LA."
have you seen a squad or two of LA's work their magic?
it's a glorious sight i can tell ya, 24 LA's just flooding into an amp station, tech plant or bio lab.
you can combat everything so fast with a setup like that, using the 3rd dimension = gold!

if i had the manpower in XOO to dedicate an entire squad to LA every night, i would do it.
when i run spec ops squads, we're mainly LA and we hurt, we stop platoons until our groups can catch up to us and support, when the battle is nearly ours, the spec ops group moves on and hit them again.

2 guys and myself stopped a platoon up at alkali mining supply 3 or so weeks ago, we were all LA, we held them up for 15 minutes.
so do i want the squad to be dependent on us as a class, no i do not,
The class already works fine with what we have, sure a tool would be lovely but we work and in the right hands, we work very well

LA is a class we do not use as much as we can in XOO, but it's finding a firmer ground than it has done earlier because we keep teaching the class and opening the possiblities of the class in the minds of our members.

i've put together some videos over the time to show them how the class can be used, some even made it into the recruitment thread and others on this board to prove a point and they have taken those points to heart and as a result we now have more LA's

i don't think they are pushing us to be a more team needed class and like i said i hope they don't.
would ruin the class if they were to push us into something the class, imo, is not meant for.
we are the sneaky b4st4rds, we are the hunters and scouts, we are already needed and shame upon the SL who can't see the use of the LA, he deserves a good smacking upside the head for being so narrowminded and shortsighted.

now, i have a meeting tomorrow morning and it's getting late where i am, so i'll continue to read this thread when i get a spare moment tomorrow.

good night.
/Daibar

Not really disagreeing with any you said, but using your score per hour isn't a very good measure (no means stating you performed poorly). Like you, I play VS on Waterson. Without using exp boosters, I've seen my bonus exp climb between 70 - 90%. That same session played as TR or NC likely would've had a lower score.

The LA class doesn't feel "complete" until at least one brick of C4 is unlocked. It's almost as if LA was designed entirely around deploying C4. That's not enough in my opinion especially since C4 has been nerfed, and it takes agonizingly long to deploy 2 bricks.

A few ideas to "finish" the LA class:

1. Since LAs only have access to close range weapons, give LAs Battle Rifles for a long range option.
2. Since LAs are the best class for dropping spawn beacons, reduce the timer on the beacon when playing as a LA.
3. Give LAs a radar jammer tool.
4. Give LAs the ability to drop portable jump pads.
5. Give the recon detect tool to the LA, then give infiltrators a REK/T-REK type of tool.

Link Please?

Thanks for your constructive post following what I had hopes people would focus on! I totally agree the class is great, but I still find it less finished than the other classes, which make me sad that I love the few things we already have. I too get some great scores, plus realize it isn't the only way to see how well the class does, but when I find multiple things (score/popularity/etc) all painting a grim picture, it feels to me like a pattern we or SOE shouldn't be ignoring. I too love seeing entire squads (or multiple squads) switching to LA and then having a field day, yet this doesn't really happen as often as I hear "everyone go HA and get out your rockets" or "everyone go medic, we are doing a medic ball" or "everyone go Engineer and pull vehicles" or "I'd like a mixed squad of 4 HA, 3 medic, 1 engineer, 1 infiltrator, and 1 LA." Feels to me in that last one Engineer, Infiltrators and Light Assaults get the shaft. I know I'm about 3 times more effective when I play LA than any other class yet still, they don't see how that is good.

My feelings about the "team needed class" really came about from looking at a bigger picture. I have played way too much, doing quite a bit solo, and then it just hit me yesterday that a lot of their changes feel like they are pushing us towards a team class. I hope, omg I hope, that is wrong but when I look at how things keep working together (such as C4 dmg nerf to Sunderers which directly effects our solo capabilities, plus the latest change so vehicle damage won't show up for us unless we are close which necessitates the need to run in a group for any reliable action to occur) and it definitely feels like that is how they want us to roll.

Again I'd like to say though, none of that would bother me in the least if we:
1) Had a tool slot item (they have enough ideas, time for them to do something with one or more of them)
2) Admitted to us their goal or vision for LA
3) Actually gave us something to function better with a mixed squad.


Again though, thanks for your post! Hope others will focus on that main core idea! Bring on both sides of the debate people!

I guess I'll throw in my card. I am a scourge of Cobalt, playing with OWND, in the 1st platoon and regularly in our SF and Spec ops squads. well known to the high end TR and NC outfits, if you want some real stats that can compare people across boosts etc, use kills per minute as shown on the weapons tab.

I agree with all of what Daibar posted. I think the class is mostly fine as it is, for now, but it is getting whittled away at with small nerfs here and there that are adding up. Most of the reason LA is shunned is because there is HA and Engi which have, honestly, far too much utility and counter too many things all in one class. I think when another big re-work is done of these classes they won't go up they'll go down.

I have run LA only squads with an attached support squad with one or two of the other classes, the main force being flying doom. It is without a doubt the most effective infantry force in the game, for any indoors base and even for outdoors bases with exposed capture points, if you know what you're doing. An LA squad with good players in it, can tear through an equivalently skilled mixed squad, as stupid as it sounds. It all comes down to the fact that you can fight on your own terms and the maneuverability of the jetpack allows you a great deal of tactical asymmetry, to pick off stragglers, bring insane fire power to bear on small numbers and then instantly disperse it, and to evade the bulk of their pitched guns/camped players.Yes you cannot deal with tank zergs or dig in as well in open ground, you have basically no AA besides focus firing a ESF, but all of these things do not capture points, infantry does. So whilst the other classes are necessary for a victory in strategic terms, once you reach the base you want to cap, 90% of players should go LA, should, but don't.

LA is finding firmer ground in the VS and TR of cobalt as many outfits are realizing its power, I've even played a TR toon with some of my enemies (some of whom confessed their hate on platoon chat lol) and the top brass of these outfits saw the capabilities of a good LA from an allied perspective, and they've begun trying to recruit good LA players etc, though the problem as they tell me regularly is finding them.

Which brings me to why I think many people dont play LA. It is the lack of utility, the lack of a specific weapon for LA use only, (imo, that shoudlve been the pump action shotgun or smg/some thing with hipfire so small jet pack firing would be good.), and the lack of a tool (for more team utlity ofc).

I'd like to see some fresh air added to the class:
The best tool to complement the LA would be a radar jammer. Or something to aid your teams flanking like a mini jump pad etc

Carbines could use a change to their suppressors which doesn't reduce damage as much as currently. They could also do with ALL having 0.75 strafe speed on ADS to really set them apart from LMGs and ARs.

In the suit slot adrenaline pump could be replaced with another cert for increased movespeed (in general), by increasing increments, up to something noticably larger than adrenaline pump.

Add other jump jets, like adrenaline jets, the normal jump jets but based off kills for recharge, like adrenaline shield. And some other jump jets which have a much shorter duration at max rank (as not to compete with jump jets for the best maneuvering.flanking) but have high move speed, and propel you in a small arc with mostly lateral movement and not more than 12-15 feet of height, (not sure on the numbers). These boosters would be for rapid in-combat re-positioning, though they would be usable only once most likely in a fire fight (the recharge decreasing with level as well as the height).

We could also use the COF in jumping/jet-packing being reduced to something less ridiculous.

An LA specific weapon? Sword and shield, hammer and shield? Some sort of derivative waepon like a "tactical shotgun" or special JJ carbine/smg?

https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/la-role-discussion.118109/page-2#post-1652867

that also contains the roles i currently hold in XOO and in game.

was the line that made me stop for a moment, i do it all the time, there's a trick to it, i call it the extended arm of the squadleader.
it's brutal and we've taken so many tanks with this.

my favorite is when they come with a tank zerg and it's a 7 minute wait, they'll mostly all have to pull new tanks if they manage to take the base once we leave.

Completely wiped the floor with them.

regarding ESFs, 100 bullets and they are done, if you have but one engineer with you and they come low enough, you can crumble them like they were tinfoil.


nice stats btw well done

exactly, me having an okay S/Hour means nothing and that's why i don't understand why it's question #1.
we all know that LA is pulled very seldom except for us who specialise it, i'm sure that higby and friends would look at the number of classes played and go "but there are so many of them" where as we on the field, see things differently, because we don't see as many as we could.

ZOE being OP != MAX class being finished.

No zoom? No nightvision? Crappy reticules? No AI weapons effective farther that spitting distance?

A thought just struck me.

maybe i'm lucky being the CO and i make the rules so to speak, but who teaches your SL's?

without giving away too much, i insist that my SL's recognize strengths(STR) and weaknesses(WEA) for every resource out there, including the classes and we focus on the class, not the player controling the class.

i sit them down and we brainstorm and for every STR we make a line and for every WEA we make a line.
After we've run out of ideas, we compare the two and discuss why it is that people play the class if there are more negatives than positives.

The one class where no one can think of anything is the LA, we generally end up on 5 pro, 5 con and because of all the things they've seen us do., they all say..well when we get to the LA, i got at least 30.

They start mentioning situations where they've seen us do amazing stuff and i have to stop them and say, no, that's player based, not the class.

I think that people are actually thinking we're harder than we are and that's why we get hit with the nerf bat so hard.
They see a couple of LA kick their teeth in, crumble their tanks, destroy their aircrafts and suddenly we're all these monsters who needs a serious beating with the stick of nerf.

They don't recognize the difference between the players and the class.
They see some players and think that all LA are that good and they start their whine.

Maybe that's one of the reasons why we get slapped so hard.

a common trait i've noticed with us LA is, we tend to think outside the box and we get punished for it.

I want direct appologize from Higby, because he always make me sad when I see roadmap changes