Directive list leading cause of stalemates?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Zipr, Nov 26, 2020.

  1. Zipr

    My apologies, I mean middle of the map fights are what they are right Opportunities to kill or be killed with little to no consequences along with a plethora of opportunity for XP Yeah it might mean less time wasted earning auraxium on guns but not the point of this thread << This is more like the counter to my possible argument Something which is near unavoidable to some degree...

    My point is more to do with things (needed) like "shielding" Specifically both medic and engineer Is it a chance some Squad leaders may prefer to engage such strangleholds for perfect placement to make progress? Engineer requires 20 some kills over his toddler gate to earn one ribbon Heavies focused more on getting back health w/ syringes dancing away from shield fields seems to make such medic ribbons also harder to come by

    Now I realize it will be quite simple to state things like " This is dumb to expect one to use a burst weapon " (Option is there to save and spend 650-1K certs for a different gun to some degree)

    This post is more to address the possibility that the directives list may not exactly be the cause of required changes such as the "bridge"... But more something that does nothing to inhibit and actually encourages such play (style?)

    IF we can lets focus on possible solutions as to just listing additional concerns For instance (imho) It's possible the number of deployed Sunderer kills was excessive to begin My personal directive is complete w/ the exception of deployed Sunderer kills Chance a real "update" might be destroy five enemy "routers" or maybe I dunno 25-50 enemy Sunderers (Think I might be at like 89 and it seems I'm always on the hunt...) Looking for signs that they may be stopping to deploy etc.

    P.S. Again focus here in this post is on directives If you have input directly related to changing stalemates you might consider a new thread Simple fact is even BR1's deploy straight to such fights (They do not even have such fields mentioned) I'm afraid such fights may be synonymous with PS2 Good luck addressing! Ironic thing here... One of the fights I've enjoyed most over the yr's involved a fight @ Scarred Mesa
  2. SteelMantis

    A majority of the player base gravitated toward the biggest fights on the map before the directive system, big fights are just what PS2 does really well.

    The directives are fine, they are meant to be a long term goal over years of play. Just keep doing what you are doing and you'll get there in time.
    • Up x 2
  3. Zipr

    While Steel I can actually sorta see your point Now seeing the wrench makes me quick to think you may not quite grasp mine For instance, I do not recall any such directive requiring the killing of "x" amount of enemy engy's On one side of the coin you could see it as a blessing It could mean one less person (working directives) to avoid spotting you in hopes of getting the kill... My issue with that stance is more that it should require 10X the amount (or more) of healing to match the possible difficulty in obtaining those kills

    Thank-you for the response tho Judging from the lack of response it doesn't seem something worthy of addressing Hell nine times out of 10 if I ain't running medic I play engy Just saying it isn't exactly something I would enjoy seeing expanded none
  4. JustGotSuspended


    "long term goals" that can be grinded out in a week, and are usually anything but rewarding. We would need an overhaul of the whole system. We should also add other tiers of medals, and directives for directives.....but that's another discussion. The engineer directives, the MAX directives, launchers.... are just so grindy and pointless. Many weapons or mechanics have been tweaked, but the directives not updated.

    Launchers is one of the most obvious ones. Absolute cancer to unlock after the nerfs, because the launchers are only meant to deal "vehicle damage", but the directive tracks kills and empty vehicles don't count as kills!

    In my experience, few people worry about directives. A majority of the playerbase doesn't want to deal with cancerous objectives like "earn 1000 AA ribbons" that don't even track properly, in order to obtain something mediocre. The few who grind for them don't aren't enough to cause stalemates and they don't need to anyways. Sure, I always welcome a good bio farm, and they do help me grind out directives, but that's not the reason those fights take place. It's more of a secondary effect due to these stalemates occurring.

    Stalemates are mainly caused by the lack of proper battleflow and base design. Few bases are actually "fun" to fight at (that is the provide quick infantry fights, with close spawns for both attackers and defenders to a point). The pushes outside of these bases are usually very painful. For this reason, the faction that owns that base sees no reason to leave the "safety" of that base, to get farmed in some painstaking location. A good example is TI. The Crown is impossible to capture, the push to allatum ensures an easy farm for the defenders sitting on top of that hill, and ceres....well it's not only an annoyance to fight at, but there's little reason to capture it anyways. I could elaborate forever, but I get the understanding you want to focus on directives.

    As for your white camo, I've never had an issue unlocking it. If deployed sunderers are what you need to kill, just grab a light assault or engineer with mines. If for some reason you have trouble getting kills fast enough with these spawn-deleting classes, you can pick up an a2g loadout or a vehicle, but generally C4 fairy is the best way to delete deployed spawns. I've done most infantry directives on all factions, infil and max are the only 2 I tend to stay away from. If you need advice let me know.
  5. Zipr

    Hey Just Appreciate ya responding... Bound to happen on occasion in that I suspected something that was just incorrect TBH I rarely have even seen any instances of legit stat-padding since like early stages of game... I'm not exactly sure how much I can explain for you to help me w/ Sundy kills I guess ensuring I wait until there on fire for my last shot? Something which is just hard to do when its a live threat to teammates I dunno brah I usually take most out okay running heavy Sometimes even getting the equivalent of a high five for doing so in a timely manner Most of the time anymore it seems I'm running a tank w/ plans to move to the next base I dunno I really just started playing another faction just a few months ago All finished except 109 out of 200 Sundys seems a bit wrong Can't blame it on cloaked because they have the least armor Not even routers because w/ numbers it still usually means armor/sundy support

    Now things like four of 800 medic kills Think the only logical answer is get gud While I'm just getting older...

    I don't mean to sound like a quitter but stuff like the engy shield I can sorta blame it on more useful gadgets But the reward in this case doesn't seem to exceed the costs Hell for 8K merit I can just buy some type of armor which may just increase my hit window lulz

    Game has seen changes tho as you touch on w/ the speak of Rockets Really as long as you guys feel such that directives has no effect Not much else to say really
  6. Demigan

    The leading cause of stalemates is how badly designed the actual game is.

    The Outfit Update (escalation) reminded us of that once more: To capture the continent you need to capture bases, the best way to capture bases is to make it as easy as possible while discouraging your enemies to even think of trying to defend. Zerging, Ghost Capping, Spawncamping and even Griefing are the name of the game if you try to play it as "intended".

    On top of that players are discouraged from trying anything else than the "stalemates". Why try your luck hoping to find a good fight at a different battle, if you can have a solid battle at one of the 24/7 fights? If you pick a different fight you can find yourself outnumbered permanently, being spawncamped, getting dropped on by an outfit, griefed, fighting a lot of vehicles that you don't have an answer to as infantry and need way more skill and coordination to defeat if you try to build a vehicle counter.

    The solution, as I've been saying for a long time now, it to make it fun.
    How do you make it fun? By making sure the goals of the game encourage players to create balanced, enjoyable fights. Basically the attackers of a base would be encouraged to make it harder for themselves to capture the base. For example you could let them speed up the capture if they take more risks by adding harder objectives to a base which can also punish the player for failure, you could slow down the capture if you overpop your opponents (with special rules to prevent the defenders from just leaving so you now hold a longer capture time). You can introduce rules that make it fun to be outnumbered, such as easier spawning, safer access to vehicle spawns, making it hard to be spawncamped, adding rules that allow them to stall or even reverse the capture timer without needing to capture the points.

    If you want players out of "stalemates", then you have to make playing outside of a "stalemate" just as fun as playing inside the "stalemate".

    Why the quotation marks around stalemate? Because it's not a stalemate, it's usually a balanced fight. The devs are now ruining the game by listening to the "oh noes a stalemate!" players by making it excessively easy to capture a base. This means that players are discouraged to defend, so it becomes harder to find a fun fight to be at. Unless your idea of "fun" is "walk into a base, hold a point while seeing virtually no resistance, move to the next base, repeat at infinitum".
    • Up x 1
  7. JustGotSuspended


    yeah honestly just try going C4 + rocklet light assault, you will literally delete spawns. If you have nanites, you can also pull a tank mine engineer, drive up to an enemy spawn, place a few mines and blow them up. If you like heavy, try 2 C4 + decimator and it should also do the trick.

    You definitely have to be a bit aggressive if you have teammates shooting at it.

    I'm sure you'll complete it eventually, it's something everyone unlocks passively with time
  8. Demigan

    It's funny because the devs actually put in protections against exactly those attacks. Blockade armor adds 1000 extra health and reduces C4 damage by 40%. The Sunderer shield as long as it's active gives 25% resistance against tank mines and 20% resistance against C4 on top of it's 2500 shield health.

    The problem is that players use them so rarely.
    Another problem is that there aren't good ways to protect a Sunderer. There should be a micro-construction system designed for Sunderer defense (and also for the defenders to slow down attackers). Nothing that will kill players all by themselves, but things that discourage players from rushing forwards.
    Example: A minelayer that pops out low-yield mines around it, highly visible with bright lights. Up to a maximum of 20 for example. Each dealing 100 damage per explosion. Destroyed with a single hit by a player it encourages whoever is approaching to reveal their presence and slow them down.
    A large shield with low health that bumps back enemies that try to pass through, but can be shot to be temporarily disabled (unless you destroy the emitter). Upon damage and destruction it gives off warnings to the owning faction.
    A laser tripwire. Enemies passing through can be spotted, or alarms could go off visible on the minimap to warn of passersby.
    An ability inhibition field. prevents enemy abilities to be used within. Useful for seeking out cloaked units or making it harder for LA's to get closer.

    The goal is not to make automated defenses that allow you to just ignore the Sunderer and go on your merry way while they rack up kills for you. Players should defend the Sunderer, the defenses only give you the time to actually return there (through redeploy if necessary) and defend the Sunderer. The only way such defenses should be able to kill anyone is if the player ignores the warnings those defenses give off and just runs straight through, like the minelayer which deals low damage and is easily defused but if you run straight through the field you have a likelyhood of dying to it.
  9. Zipr

    Demigan Good to see a response sharing thoughts on "stalemates" Hard to say anything is broken if people have fun Matter of fact I'm somewhat thankful for such play along w/ any beat your head against a wall type push (outnumbered) that makes for an easier cap elsewhere

    Specifically IF there is any issues about stalemates it might include things like newer players still attempting CTF when that is not what is happening It's more who cares if they have one flag We're not attacking elsewhere But ya may have newer folks dying needlessly thinking something is important Worse yet an increase in numbers could make an older veteran suspect an actual cap is being attempted

    Especially now w/ resources it seems sort of mind-boggling Here is a purple base earning nothing for no one but quite possibly providing good mindless entertainment

    Do you suspect it would be too much to expect such folks to risk such a base becoming uncapturable and becoming neutral for that specific alert? Something like if it is fought over for X amount of time It then becomes a question of how long any flags remain flipped Attackers needing to quit playing games while the defenders best handle their business

    Also I can't quite grasp the comment about deploying to a different base I mean yeah there is a few bases I wouldn't just roll a Sundy to especially expecting much get accomplished ie. Howling Pass Such a thing seems more to risk gathering folks to not only defend but start a counter-push But first Sundy to quite a few bases here nonetheless

    I'd also argue that Sunderer defenses do not really need anymore buff's I mean if there is two or more experienced players defending it becomes more difficult IF the defenders group to deal it is at cost of more time lost on point Seems more to add about preparations for such in either having multiple Sunderers or knowing when to pull more Seasoned players w/ a router having almost made the loss of other spawns non relevant especially w/ bacon'

    P.S. JustGot I also use the antiveh grenade I mean yeah it does mean a delay but it all adds up Sometimes will eliminate stuff I missed Thanx tho
  10. JustGotSuspended


    It's hilarious actually, because the defenses and resistances were fine in the first place. 2 bricks of C4 were at most going to bring a max health bus down to flames. In a genius play, a C4 delay and resistances were moved around, and the rocklet rifle added. This means a solo la can now singlehandedly take down spawns no matter the armor, and terrorize a good amount of vehicles.

    Deployment shield is meta, the blockade armor is pretty much useless since the nerf, since it only protects against infantry weapons and had little merit over the deployment shield anyways.

    Ideally we should revert the CAI, remove rocklet and C4 delay, just keep the things as they used to be before. Plz no more explosions or whatever complexly useless gimmicks. Spitfires are already ample warning devices.

    Best way to protect a sunderer would be for the devs to revisit the spawn system and actually tailor no-deploy zone to match base-unique terrain.
  11. Demigan

    I don't think we should revert CAI. Why go from one bad state back to the previous bad state? Shouldn't we look to solutions to problems, rather than trying to fix symptoms?

    There is nothing wrong with an LA being able to solo a Sunderer. The Rocklet Rifle isn't even a powerful weapon despite people making it out to be one. It's like pistols: They only score well because when you run out of your main ammunition, the damage it's going to do is enough to finish it off.

    It's not even a new "problem". Sunderer deployment shields and mine protections were introduced long before CAI specifically to deal with solo players who found ways to destroy them. It used to be Engi's with tank mines who would use Flashes or similar to get there, drop mines and throw a grenade down. Or HA's using C4, AV grenades and rocketlaunchers pulling similar tricks.

    The problem is that the Sunderer isn't a Point Of Interest you want to remain at. It's the point you spawn at and try to leave to get to where you want to be, so there's little incentive to stick around. Worse is that defending a Sunderer is often a boring, lonesome task without a guarantee that enemies will ever show up before you have to pack up and leave. You can change that in two ways: Giving players enough time and warning to return and defend it and adding things for them to do which makes the waiting less boring. I try to solve both in one go. The defenses you put down mean players are taking more time around the Sunderer, offering protection while they check up on those defenses and place new one's. And players get more warning and time to get to the Sunderer. This isn't gimmicky, this would be a core part of the game if added in. Especially if the defenders gain access to area's on the map where you can do similar things to defend other POI's. An example of those POI's are things like Generators, the buildings close to the spawnpoint (fortifying those as defenders makes it harder for the enemy to spawncamp), chokepoints near points (but not on them) etc.
  12. JustGotSuspended


    I'll have to disagree entirely with that. The rocklet rifle has higher damage output than rocket launchers, and is definitely something to be feared by vehicles. Trust me, I've auraxed it faster than C4. And no, a solo player shouldn't be allowed to take on what's supposed to be the one of the most bulky vehicles in the game. Deployed sunderers should take some coordination to take out, not a solo light assault or boombox harasser who's decided the fight should stop.

    As for pistols, they have some of the fastest ttk in the game. Go main blackhand heavy or something if you don't believe me, even the doodoo directive pistols are 3hk, with insane accuracy, reload. The only reason you'll typically just find stalkers maining pistols is because of the magazine size and range on most pistols, but make no mistake, a pistol is something to fear, much like the rocklet rifle. The rocklet isn't a backup weapon, it's become the main AV weapon for light assaults.

    Also if we try to turn the sunderer into a POI people want to remain at and guard, wouldn't that just encourage even more stalemates?


    Also before CAI wasn't too bad. Now it's a complete disaster. It's faster and better to revert to the old state, while the devs maybe come out with an eventual patch that might address some issues in some indefinite amount of time.
  13. Demigan

    My experience is that virtually no LA uses it unless it's to finish something off they threw C4 on or as beesting attacks when they have no other options. Normally I would dredge up some data but I can't find them and they would be massively skewed. For example looking on Dasanfall at my own stats I have a VKPH of 101. This is for the exact same reason why pistols score high: They are picked to finish off a target. They might have the DPS to rival that of main weapons but they don't have the endurance for most players to finish a full fight. Another example is C4: You pull it out when you have a solid chance of throwing it at your enemy. This means that all the times you didn't have a solid chance and were killed aren't logged as a failed C4 run, and the time that you do have C4 out and attack with it is short boosting it's KPH for example.

    If you drive up to an LA, deploy your Sunderer and just leave, should the LA be unable to destroy the Sunderer? Just because you paid 200 nanites and then did nothing to defend it?
    Players should put in time and effort to protect the Sunderer, and that should in turn require time and effort to overcome. You put in no effort to protect your Sunderer? Then it shouldn't take much effort to destroy it as well. And a shielded sunderer that is used for spawns is actually already a tough nut to crack even if you optimize the speed to destroy it.
    You don't want the effort to be "I just dumped down something and now it will kill enemies so I don't have to worry about it much". You want players to put in the effort to defend it, and to do that you need to give them the time and warning to show up for it's defense. And that includes something like a single tank showing up to destroy the Sunderer.

    Is that a bad thing?

    You just said that Sunderers shouldn't be taken out too easily, but now you are going the other way and saying that if a Sunderer is tough to destroy it would make fights last longer?
    And why would a "stalemate" be bad? Currently players get the feeling of progression when they capture a base. But if you can shift that feeling to sub-objectives within a base you can create progression without the need to let the defenders or attackers maul their opposition with ease, which is the current strategy the devs seem to be using.


    What's the disaster? People seem to think vehicles got nerfed in that update somehow, but there is much less punishment for taking HEAT and HE now, HEAT can even fire faster and have more chances to kill infantry now. On top of that infantry AV has been nerfed so it takes more shots to kill vehicles but with more rockets to fire. So infantry now has to expose themselves more often to more AOE and faster firing tanks. Yet people treat it like vehicles were screwed over big time. The only disaster is how infantry have been boned. And I haven't even touched on things like the C4 resistance armors.

    So rather than revert to a state that was also bad, shouldn't we look to solving the actual problems between infantry and tanks instead? As long as we require walls to segregate infantry and tanks from each other just to give infantry some semblance of a fair fight we know that the vehicles are far too powerful.
  14. JustGotSuspended


    lol idk where you play, but you can just direct yourself to Moukass videos on youtube, or even if you dig through the forums you'll find clips of LA assaults going on rampages with their rocklet rifles abusing the bug.

    well yeah, the goal is to capture/defend the base, not the sunderer. What's the point of adding this minigame of fortifying a sunderer and just rewarding people for trenching up there. My point is that a single player shouldn't be allowed to eliminate a spawn so quickly (and this is coming from a light assault/engineer main). That has nothing to do with demanding sunderer fortifications.

    ????????????????????Idk if you're joking, but a quick google search should clarify a few things in case you missed the changes

    Well you listed a few things. Basically the light assault is the only infantry class that can fight vehicles, and it terrorizes everything now. Air is basically invincible, vehicles feel squishy yet have decent resistance to tank shots, although flashes and harassers chew through tanks near instantly, while tanking more hits than they should. The shots from the rear are even more damaging than before, which was something the patch was supposed to address. Some stuff is just silly, like certain tank shells no longer 1hking infantry, but having increased splash and rof. Decreased range...

    No one can deny it seriously hurt the game, and if after 5 years they didn't fix it they can at least revert it to the time where it wasn't that terrible.
  15. JibbaJabba

    For the most part the directive system just helps me choose what I'm going to kill you with. The when and where are unchanged.
  16. Zipr


    Safe bet it's not gonna be in a Max? Just joking I was impressed by the post and wanted to check on gun stats etc. This post is suppose to be more about extra extra directives Not so much guns w/ a shiny title Things more like looks and more specifically cosmetic armor for your player

    Case in point would be something like fighting at the crown Such folks may have a medic trailing for cleanup on errors Whereas next door @ TI you might find plenty of cloakers, light assaults, and heavies (Maybe an engy depending on faction) Not necessarily much need for a medic (Upon death you get a whole new clip...)

    I dunno really myself it is kind of a game within the game I mean IF you are winning and/or have no chance more or less then hanging out in a Bio Lab can be kind of fun I will say this tho shield repair seems to cut down on amount of healing gained I was there to finish a daily mission for the most part and most recently started running shield all the time (Not just for bigger fights)

    Bottom line it doesn't appear much of an issue to everyone I mean I'm not exactly on the hunt or mission per say to nail medics but I'm only up to 12 of 800 or something Guess I'm just impressed for the most part because it seems that most must finish the killing and need to adjust and chill or something to earn the heal's

    Thank you for time and responses!
  17. Demigan

    I was referring to people not abusing bugs and exploits to use the weapon in a way it shouldn't be possible. Try and find some video's of people rampaging without those exploits.

    Question, how do you defend a base?
    Holding the point will get you nowhere. All it will do is make sure the enemy doesn't capture it, but it doesn't allow you to actually defend the base. You need to clear out the attackers for a successful defend. If there's a Sunderer you need to destroy it to end the fight and be able to start thinking about trying to become the attackers yourself.
    Sunderers already are incredibly important targets for defenders. That's why you pointed out you didn't want them destroyed by a single person in the first place. So why wouldn't you put that in a "mini-game" by letting the attackers actually defend their Sunderer rather than let the Sunderer be so durable a solo player can't defeat it?

    And you did read my suggestion I'm sure so why are you saying that I'm "rewarding people for trenching up there"? My suggestions are mostly to slow down anyone attacking the Sunderer and warning the owning faction soon enough to actually show up to defend it.
    Then there's also the question: Does it matter where you hold the line? Shouldn't a last-ditch defense of your foothold in the base be just as engaging as a last-ditch defense around the point? The goal of the game is that as much of what you do is fun, so why not make defending the Sunderer fun? You cut out the waiting around with placing defenses and then going away until you get a warning that the Sunderer might soon be under attack.

    As for your point about a solo player not being able to eliminate a spawn quickly. If we just nerf the LA or bump of the armor of the Sunderer we don't improve the gameplay. You just nerfhammer solo players to ensure the Sunderer survives and lower the need for the attackers to actually defend one of their most important assets. Why shouldn't you make defending the Sunderer an engaging enterprise? Why shouldn't you encourage players to coordinate the defense of the Sunderer rather than just leaving it and repairing it should a solo LA have come along and damaged it? You championed the idea that you should need more coordination to attack a Sunderer, shouldn't we apply the same to the owners of said Sunderer?



    I'm not joking, and I am saying it didn't seriously hurt the game any more than it's previous state did. The most important way it hurt the game more was by allowing tanks to farm infantry with even less punishments than before. I don't know how vehicles are supposed to feel squishy unless you assault several enemies at once. Harassers were buffed later and were at a relatively good spot at the time. The worst things for vehicles was how side armor and front armor became the same damage reductions, which was changed back later on. The only shells that no longer OHK'd infantry are the HEAT of the Prowler, which is kinda a good trade-off for it's higher ROF and the fact that it would have gotten 2 OHK shots per magazine otherwise making it an absolute beast against infantry. It's still a beast anyway.


    Then when you look at pre-CAI, what would we gain? Infantry would get long-range abilities to kill tanks, which might help infantry but is not a good gameplay solution as it's not fun for the tanks to fight infantry that doesn't even render. Harassers would still be OP because they weren't as affected by CAI, their composite armor would take a hit but not enough to stop the immense power they have now. HE and HEAT would once again be relegated to farm equipment and be used rarely anywhere else.
    There's barely anything to cheer for when we go back. So why should we go back from one bad state to another? Shouldn't we look to fix the actual problems rather than look with rose-tinted glasses at the old days and ignore all the bad stuff that was there as well?
  18. homedepot51

    honestly id just like to get assists count as kill for directives to move along faster. if i got a nickel for everytime i die to someone i got to a sliver of health, id have more money to support this game