[Suggestion] Different Flight Model for aircraft

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by DarkStarAnubis, Oct 28, 2020.

  1. DarkStarAnubis

    In PS2:
    aircraft are a mix of real-life aircraft and helicopters.

    In real life:

    (a) Aircraft are fast and can't hover. In terms of air-to-ground support their speed is a disadvantage because it gives them just a few seconds to aim (if using unguided weapons: guns, rockets). The reason why the A-10 is such a good air-to-ground platform is its slow speed.

    Slow speed is good but mean more exposure to ground fire (unguided weapons: guns, rocket AND guided weapons as well: lock-on missiles). Once again, the A-10 is good because it is slow but it is built as a tank: the pilot is encased in a Titanium bathtub and the aircraft can still fly with one engine (it has 2), wings damaged, control systems degraded and vertical rudder gone (it has 2).

    (b) Helicopters are in general more fragile, slower and can carry less payload compared to aircraft. So what's the deal? They can hover. They can use the terrain to their advantage. A good example is the AH-64 Longbow attack helicopter who has its radar mounted on top of the rotor. So it can scan an area without exposing itself.

    Back to PS2 aircraft:

    They have both: they are fast, quite beefy (even ESF can sustain a few missile hits and ground fire), they can hover at any time and have a panoply of weapons.

    The obvious suggestion would be to remove hover mode to aircraft and force them to fly not below a minimum speed otherwise they would stall but it can't be done so easily. PS2 has no runaways and aircraft use landing pads/platforms or the terrain, so they need to hover.

    My proposal would be the following:

    (1) aircraft keep the hover mode but it requires a flight transition to enter and exit it, it is not seamless as it is today: the aircraft has to enter hover mode by slowing down enough (landing gears are automatically extended), the transition takes some seconds to be performed. Once in hover mode, it behaves like a helicopter but it is also very slow. The transition from hover mode to fly mode can be performed by having enough speed (landing gears are retracted). The aircraft needs to have a minimal speed to enter flight mode again.

    (2) Decrease in general resistance of aircraft to air-to-ground weapons (guided and unguided).

    (3) Increase in general aircraft max speed but also min speed (below which the aircraft enters hover mode)

    That would make PS2 aircraft closer to real-life VSTOL aircraft like the Harrier for example.

    What would this imply? Hover mode would be used for landing and take-off transitions. It could be used as well in combat for NOE flight, using the terrain as coverage but at the price of being a slow hence easy target. And since aircraft would be weaker in general, it is very dangerous. However, when flying it will be more difficult to hit.
    • Up x 3
  2. InexoraVC

    >"That would make PS2 aircraft closer to real-life VSTOL aircraft like the Harrier for example." ?

    What is the point of your suggestion ?
    What problem do you solve ?
    Make flying in PS2 even harder ?
    Make ESF more fragile ?
    Make flying even less attractive ?

    Most forum writers say "ESF doesn't die fast enough of G2A". I think the most of them didn't fly.
    Flying ESF is a hell: everyone and everything tries to kill you. Trees, rocks, ground, buildings are deadly. Almost every single touch == death.
    Tanks shells, Skyguards, Rangers, Walkers, Basilisks, Strikers, Annihilators, and other lockons as well as dumb file launchers - they are at least deterrent and make the area immune to ESF.
    Even smallarms and sidearms weapons are dangerous.
    Oh, I didn't note other aircrafts.
    It is required a months of practice to become a decent ESF pilot.

    What problem do you solve ?
  3. DarkStarAnubis

    ESF farming infantry at impunity, darting away at high speed when damaged or barely locked on, then returning, rinsing and repeating. 100% cheese gameplay.

    Why do you fly then mate if it is such a ****** thing? Just switch to infantry, live is easier there :D
    • Up x 1
  4. Towie

    The PS2 ESF flight model has been lambasted since inception - the reverse maneuver is utterly critical to master for the sky knights, without this skill you will die constantly to those who have mastered it.

    Unfortunately the model hasn't changed and people have many (like hundreds if not thousands) of hours invested in the art. There is little chance that DBG/RPG would change it now.

    Can you imagine the outcry ? I mean - plenty of cheers too - but the backlash would be ferocious...(no matter how much i'd agree with the suggestions)
  5. iller

    It's not the Phsyics itself, it's the fact that Hover3 is the ONLY VIABLE AIRFRAME anyone ever uses specifically because it f***s with both lockons and newbie aim tracking so hard and glitches out Flak damage being applied in some questionable instances. It needs some real downsides to it. You will be laughed at by every ESF vet if you run anything but Hover and Afterburners
    • Up x 1
  6. OneShadowWarrior

    Planetside 1 had great flying physics.
  7. InexoraVC

    Solution: 2 guys with Striker. Or 1 Skyguard (it is even cheaper than ESF). That's it.

    I consider flying as a challenge. The main target after 7 years in PS2 is not to get bored :) Flying is hard, A2A victories are very satisfactory :))
  8. LordKrelas

    Ah yes, let me pull my VS Striker, or my NC Striker, that also isn't default.
    Or my Skyguard in advance', hoping I'm near a vehicle terminal - that isn't nuked by the ESF, the lightest aircraft.
    As well, this requires the ESF to be attacking someone pre-geared for AA Duty, which means Pre-debuffed against everything that isn't air - or is a Heavy-Assault for TR, switching out any AV for the Striker.
    That's more specialized than the ESF, by several miles, with prep - ESF just flies to the next base', on the first shot.
    Now what? Your entire gear is AA.

    Also, have you bought a lightning tank ever? They're not cheaper than ESFs, it's the same nanite price.
    And if you meant certs: Skyguards are not free, they are specialized lightnings, that suck balls attacking anything.
    • Up x 2
  9. Blam320

    1) The point is to eliminate common flight physics exploits, such as the hated-by-everyone-who-isn't-a-sweaty-skyknight Reverse Maneuver, and to eliminate the very, very common complaint that ESFs can usually perform A2G actions with relative impunity thanks to the combination of ESF speed and maneuverability with the relative impotence of G2A weapons, unless they're pulled en-masse and catch the ESF in the open.
    2) Literally the same as question one.
    3) This should, in fact, make flying more intuitive and easier to get into, since players won't be forced to learn ridiculous contrivances and exploits just to become marginally competitive.
    4) Yes, ESFs should be more fragile; the archetype is called a "glass cannon," capable of hitting very hard and/or moving very quickly, but also incapable of taking much punishment in return. Currently the only truly "effective" G2A options in the game are the TR's Striker and AP rounds from tank cannons.
    5) If anything, knowing that new players will have an easier time getting into flying should make it more attractive, as more people will be willing to learn the ropes since they won't be utterly shut down by marauding skyknights. It should also mean Liberators become the more default A2G option, meaning ESFs will be used more often for Air Superiority operations, as was their intended role from the start.
  10. InexoraVC

    Get 3 HA's with Annihilators or Swarm. In most cases ground troops do NOTHING to clear the sky.
    Look at video below - almost zero resistance to A2G attacks, just 2 G2A lockons in 5 min, Scythe isn't even equipped with Stealth.

    P.S. about lightning - sorry, that's all my ASP tokens.
  11. LordKrelas

    Get 3 Heavies, with a specific Launcher', against the ESF that can dodge those, let alone the swarm casually, engage units that aren't debuffed by those weapons..
    Not everyone is carrying around 3 Dudes, with an AA Load-out, let alone in an open-field.

    Are you aware of the Range of lock-ons? The Velocity? Or the fact that ESFs can:
    • Outrun them.
    • Drive them into the terrain.
    • Activate Flares - which makes them immune entirely.
    • Is limited to a shorter range than ESF's Guns.
    • Can Out-heal them with Fire-Suppression
    • Can kill the Units in less time, thanks to TTK Advantage
    • Can Disengage & Re-Engage Targets without dedicated AA
    Like, the Air picks the fight, and is the hardest bastard to hit.
    Why would Infantry, which can ganked, inside a second by an ESF, even with all the equipment, only carry AA equipment in every environment?
    Are you sitting at a Terminal 24\7, or in a Base Fight, engaging the enemy?
    Air attacks are not limited to Places that are already full of debuffed infantry & vehicles staring at the sky.
    If an Infantry fires their gun at an ESF', and isn't surrounded with enough allies to kill that ESF, that Infantry is dead in an instant -- You do not want to try the attention of the Grim Reaper, armed with Anti-Infantry Splash Guns & AOE Rocket-Pods, with the TTK Advantage to your position.
    IE, it is suicide, to bring attention to yourself, away from the ground enemies that are also trying to kill you, to fire at the ESF, which suddenly appeared that can end your existence in a second.
    G2A debuffs the living hell out of ground-units;
    Flak MAXes are easy marks for 90% of the things on the field.
    Heavies with AA-Launchers are often useless against Ground-Armor.
    Skyguards are fodder to the nearest enemy Armored Unit, and even can be threatened by Infantry.
    2 of these Three, are also stuck behind a Higher TTK against the ESF, which has the shortest TTK on them, taking several of these units, against a multiple AOE-Damage Attacker', that can escape mid-attack - if it actually picked an area that had AA Units in it.
    A dude in a basefight, isn't going to give the guy shooting him a free kill, to stare into the sky, and be killed by the ESF, hoping 3 other dudes packed a speciality weapon, with LOS to the ESF - hoping to not be near instantly killed during lock-on.
    • Up x 1
  12. InexoraVC

    >"Are you aware of the Range of lock-ons? The Velocity?"
    No, damnit! I'm just a forth character BR 95 ASP noob.

    I got it: you need "Press F to kill all nearby air units" button.

    You don't want to use launchers, you don't want to change your loadout (look at video above: there is a NC Sunderer available all the time), you don't want to spawn as a Max with burster, you don't want to to bring attention to yourself.
    Ok! Be farmed then! And continue to whine about A2G attacks and to make an ESF nerf suggestions :))
  13. LordKrelas

    Did you gain a magical "Change loadout anywhere, including in the middle of being shot"?
    Do you magically have an MAX Loaded out with Bursters, that is immune to the enemy on the ground?
    Air attacks bases, that are not empty; There is enemies on the damn ground.
    Air attacks the ground, where there isn't a sunderer right beside them.
    Air picks the fight, you melon.

    As well, If you are switched to an dedicated Air-Anti-Air Loadout, you still need a group to be as well.
    That Pilot gets shot once, they're gone, and can return at any moment -- And they pick their fights.
    Do you think every single person, can disengage, teleport to a terminal, and not be gunned the **** down by the A2G ESF that can decimate an AA Max inside 1 second?

    I don't even make ESF Nerf Suggestions.
    I'd rather G2A become practical, and not this flak non-sense, that is unenjoyable for both sides.
    Let alone, that "You need to be Anti-Air", every time, one of these aircraft pop up, as if every person they target can run to a terminal, in the middle of being shot at.

    Not everyone is playing a Heavy-Assault at times, or is sitting next to the magical terminal, or would not be head-shot attempting to use a terminal - if they ain't permanently a spawn-warrior.
    • Up x 2
  14. iller

    If we're gonna talk about G2A solutions... Honestly nothing beats multiple double Walker Sundies.... or Ranger/Walker combo if all you can manage is 1 driver and 2 gunners. (and if you're only going run SOLO all the time, then this MMO isn't the game for you. Go make some go****ned friends)

    unlimited ESF's don't cost anything other than a couple minutes of your time if you own a Racer3 ANT and an Air Terminal.
    (the same logic doesn't apply to lightnings since you can't just pull one from the same location and bring it to the other side of the continent in under a minute)

    The only thing this clip demonstrates is that Scythes have a massively unfair advantage when ramming into the other 2 ESF's
    • Up x 1
  15. InexoraVC

    You "melon", go and play another game if you can't find a countermeasure to ESF g2a :)
    PS2 is too rude for you :)
  16. Blam320

    Or, how about we actually level the playing field and give ground units a non-impotent way to remove farming ESFs from small fights. Unless literally everyone pulls HA with lock-ons or Burster MAXes, that farmer isn't going to go away for good. They're always going to keep coming back. At least tanks need to work around the same terrain restrictions as Infantry, which is part of their balance. ESFs have zero terrain restrictions unless fights are completely indoors, which is why people flock to Biolabs so often.
    • Up x 1
  17. InexoraVC

    That is constructive.
    I'll suggest to add a "bomber" option for an ESF: dropping the bombs are fun. Requires a skill. Can choose AV or AI bombs.
    And decrease ESF/Valk/Liberator/Galaxy resistance to small arms (e.g. primary infantry weapon) damage. So squad on the ground will be really dangerous to air even if it has no lockons.
    And add AntiAir Auto Cannon for an enginner. Some kind like spitfire cannon but it hits the air targets as Walker does. This would be useful to prevent SLOW aircraft (Lib mostly, but slow Valk and ESF too) hover above the battlefield and farming ground targets.

    P.S. and decrease Dalton A2A damage ! :)
  18. LordKrelas

    Imagine for a Brief moment, that ESFs had to Specialize, to deterr a ground-unit, that had higher agility, faster-speeds, and the faster TTK.
    Now imagine those Pilots being told, that when that Ground Unit finds them, to already be specialized specifically for that encounter - which means the first other Pilot that finds them will kill them without breaking a sweat.

    Once you imagine that, now consider that 90% of the game, is ground units put into that position, without the ability to always reach a console, just to attempt to deterr the opponent that Picked the fight, and can disengage.

    The Pilot that picks a fight with an AA Group able to win, is a rare pilot -- as they have every fight to pick from, and don't have to stick to that fight once they've chosen.
    A Ground unit can not disengage from the Pilot', if they're not ready for the fight; they die instead.
    If the pilot is not ready nor willing to engage the AA Unit, the Aircraft can disengage, using a booster which can't be countered.

    Once air is gone, or isn't the singular opponent on the field, that AA unit is a free kill to anything near it - or to an Air unit in the 360 degrees of sky, that they don't see , and against ESFs, most AA units have limited effectiveness - and are reactionary.
    The moment, any larger Aircraft comes in, such as a Liberator, AA becomes near useless even when not reactionary.

    If you can't pick the fight, and are not idle but fighting the enemy, you can not suddenly nerf yourself & have AA equipment, before that Air Unit either disengages, or kills you.

    How exactly is anything going to hit the ESF, if it is flying by at max-speed, dropping bombs behind it? Every current AA Weapon relies on a stream of slow chip-damage.
    Hitting an Air unit, with small-arms, is incredibly unreliable - and only one of those isn't entirely immune to them - on top; How far is this reduction?
    Demigan has an idea or thousand: Make AA Weapons less specialized, so they can work outside of deterrance, so people don't get debuffed so hard', just to scratch Pilots.

    A Liberator is not slow, in the slightest, it even has built-in boosters.
    Walker Spam, might either do nothing, or add to the cluster-****.

    Dalton had reduced Damage, so it didn't one-shot ESFs, Pilots demanded it One-shot again.
    Got to fight the Pilots on that one, specifically the Lib pilots.