Darkstar and Goose

That is a bit misleading. The kills on Voidwell are the total kills. So if the Butcher scores the same amount of kills per player but has half the amount of players using it, then the Betel will have more kills.

This is why the Betel is OP:
https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...02106&startDate=2022-03-28&endDate=2022-04-22
of all guns, none come close to the a s s kickery of the Betel. Its there in a night and day difference. We are talking about a weapon who on its worst days performs still more than 10% better then the next in line, on average 20+% better and at times more than 50% better than the next best performing weapon.
and this is after the arsenal update.

I already said I'm not going to debate this further with you. You are immune to logic it appears, seeing that of others as faulty but yours is perfect. That's fine, you don't need to convince me. It boils down to opinion and mine is that the Betel has been nerfed, not as badly as the Eclipse or worse, the Skorpios, but nerfed for me. I continue to use all three, and work towards others, even after this episode, for the challenges therein. You apparently don't see any challenges. Have you ever actually fired a Betel? Perhaps if you have, you find it better than say, the Godsaw. That's fine too. If you choose to play a faction that doesn't have the Betel, that's on you. Me, I play VS because I dislike the attitudes of NC and TR in comparison with VS. It needs to be said I dislike those same things in VS where I see them. In many ways I dislike this game because of the way it breeds such caustic ways of thinking. Nonetheless I like the ideas of VS versus the ideas of NC and TR and from my perspective, VS should have the weapons it has where NC and TR have the weapons they have, and none of them should be nerfed because any other faction dislikes them.

Like I said I'm continuing to use these directive rewards for the challenge. They are, after all, still "fun", with their heat mechanic, hobbled as they are now. And no, I didn't read your response. The little I did read suggests it's just more of the same, delivered in a way to either belittle me and my logic or intimidate me. None of it works since I have already decided your argument is faulty.

On CERES, VS is usually underpopped, the underdog, when I'm playing. There, I see plenty of TR and NC directive rewards, and VS (at least when I'm playing) is usually the lowest pop.

And now I see the point of this argument. Betel has the highest KPU. But then, it would, wouldn't it? Even if it's just a decent gun, you don't have to reload it, so you don't have to reequip it. That doesn't mean it's the best weapon, only that it has more kills per equip. At least the way I'm reading it. Even on CERES, this KPU stat will likely show the Betel higher than all the other LMGs, since it's not total kills but kills per equip.

This point is entirely logical, but the times I've personally reequipped for the purposes of ammunition are rather low. This is a personal preference, there might be players around who do this very often. But normally there are enough engineers around to make this a non-issue in most fights that are not in the size categoty of 2v2. So while I had not considered this aspect before - thank you for bringing it up - and certainly accounts for a portion of the difference, the question then is how large that portion is. It's likely not the entire difference.

In addition, there is one scenario in which Goose users will die less: It is highly unlikely they die because they are caught while reloading. This also will increase the KPU, and definitely has something to do with the weapon having an edge over others. The portion of the difference this accounts for, however, is probably smaller than the one from not reequipping, but it should not be discounted.

Another point to consider (technically) is that redeploying regularly would tank the KPU. But I doubt that Goose-users redeploy siginificantly less, and instead assume - on the grounds I don't see any evidence to the contrary - that the amount of redeploys per faction and player is relatively similar. So while this factor should be mentioned, it can probably be safely discarded.

What is illogical is that you say I am the problem while you simultaneously contradict some of Jibba's points. You dont even know what logic he has used to "prove me wrong".

Also about KPU: It's Kills Per Unique USER, not per unique PULL. This is easy to verify: each death would constitute a new pull, so the KPU would never be higher than the KD of a weapon. Yet if you use Fisu as well for example the KPU is always higher.
Besides that you could "game" that system by using the terminal a couple of hundred times to tank the KPU.

Also on a day with say 400 uniques it would mean 50 users can only die 4 times before quitting the weapon. There are a lot more than 50 users per day.

Its based on a wrong assumption. Also if it had been true then the high amount of Betel users would already torpedo this argument. If a weapon with 50 to 200 pulls scores worse because its re-pulled at a terminal more often, then the Betel being used 200 to 400 times who dont re-pull it as often shows the weapon being a magnitude more popular.

I

Interesting. Thanks for clarifying the KPU measure. Yes that does seem to indicate a preference for the Betel, but I thought that was a given for some reason in this argument. Yes this does show that the Betel is somewhat more overused than other LMGs. The question then remains why? You hold that it's the weapon, I get that. It would seem though that the players choosing that weapon for whatever reason is also important.

At the end of the day, people will use the weapon which they like the best for whatever reason. Part of that is bound to be ease of use and ease to get kills. The Betel is still reasonably easy to use and with a 40 shot heat mechanic, no problem getting the kills. The heat mechanic cool down works well enough that I am yet to die of the Betel locking up. Not so the Skorpios, which again and again lets me down.

But you're not talking about the Skorpios, but rather the Betel. It seems fine to me. I can see why people like it. The Orion is definitely more reliable but maybe not as much fun. I think the devs are going to have to rethink this version of the heat mechanic in the light of what it has done to the likes of the Eclipse, Darkstar and Skorpios. But for the moment the Betel is still workable.

I put lashing arounds on the darkstar... gonna arax this before it gets nerfed into the ground.

I've never used the goose, from my understanding, VS has the least amount of heavy play, and the only thing that was worth getting was the goose. It's not worth playing heavy unless I'm using ground locks against mosquito swarms.

The naginata's fun though, might get into heavy to use that for a little while.

Lashing on the Darkstar is a gimmick tho. Medics aren't to be point holding with a lasher. Also, the ROF of the Darkstar begs it to have a 30 round clip as the heat mechanics overheats hit too fast. There's absolutely zero reason to want to unlock it at it's current state. Giving it an optional reload is of no use unless you overheat. For that matter, might as well go use something else.

Yeah heavies on VS have the weakest options for LMG using a decent ROF and clip size. So again, comparing how the Goose used to be to it's current state, why would I want to choose that over SV 88( which I love) that has a 75 round clip, high ROF and can be used medium to long with controlled fire and CQ? Hipfire isn't the greatest but certainly doable.

I could give a crap less for attachments that potentially make my aim worse and also give me a little over an assault rifles clip size at the same time. I especially don't feel the need to carry healing attachments especially if I'm playing middle on a push, I'm rezzing and healing not shooting. If I want to play aggressive, at what advantage does Darkstar have that I can't get from any other weapon, like the Pulsar? Seems redundant.

No YOU don't even know what logic I used to prove you wrong.

-Post #38.

4 pages in. You still haven't explained how the heat mechanic makes it hit heads better.

C'mon Demigan. Explain it to us all.

I explained it several times already. Read it back.

You mean where you said that the heat mechanic makes the gun (not the player) burst fire and that's why the Betel has a higher HSR? LOL. anyway.

I've been thinking about this post in relation to the Betelgeuse and the VS directive reward weapons in general, and trying to put my finger on what exactly is the problem with them. It suddenly hit me when I thought of the phrase "Directive Reward Weapons". They are no longer rewards. I can't say about the NC or TR weapons, although I've heard that they have had pretty impressive buffs generally. But certainly, the VS directive reward weapons are no longer better than the standard or default models on which they are based.

This thread is about the Betelgeuse so I will restrict my comments to just that weapon. It used to be that it was like an Orion in every reasonable way, but with a heat mechanic, and this was the only 'extra' feature to make it a reward weapon. Some people didn't like that, which is rich given how their own directive reward LMGs are really arguably rewards. A Gauss Saw which trades a smaller magazine for a quicker reload is certainly a reward. The magazine of a Gauss Saw (100 rounds at 500 RPM) seems endless in comparison to the 50 shots of an Orion at 750 RPM. Even halving this magazine size would still give a gun which outlasts an Orion between reloads.

But the Betelgeuse is now NOT an Orion with a heat mechanic. Rather, it's a hobbled Orion - 40 shots which is ridiculously small for a high ROF LMG. Yes, it will cool down if you let it, but with only 40 shots, in a heated firefight you run out very quickly, and then the large magazines of either NC or TR will take you down. Trust me, I've seen it first hand. In comparison, the Orion is much more dependable. That extra 10 shots really makes a difference.

I am now running one fit in each class of Infil, LA and HA, that use Skorpios, Eclipse/Skorpios and Betelgeuse respectively, and then a duplicate of that fit using the base weapons, so that I can switch between one and the other as I need to depending on the engagement. I'm finding that I'm generally dying A LOT MORE using the reward weapons than I am using the standard weapons. This should not be the case. Directive reward weapons should be better than the standard weapons, but these are now not. I'm gradually getting closer to retiring all of my directive reward weapons as a bad joke by the devs on VS, complicit with the bleaters in NC and TR who complained about something simple that only added a unique mechanic to the base Orion being OP.

You can complain all you like, NC and TR. All you have done with the help of the devs is basicly push people back to the Orion, which is now the better weapon. VS has been well and truly shafted by the devs with this one. Maybe VS is dominant on PC. Even so, it wasn't their weapons, and nerfing the Betel won't change a thing. VS is the underdog on PS4, so this is a really low blow by you devs. I hope you're happy. You've ruined one of the unique things that still made VS worth playing.