Darkstar and Goose

Anyone else feel the Darkstar with a reduced 24 round overheat and the attachments force back of the line support only play, using gimmicky attachments? I just unlocked Darkstar a few weeks ago and had no problems as is. I just feel 24 round overheat in a frantic battle defending yourself makes it more unusable. 6 rounds is basically another kill and leaves you wanting to just shelf it more than it was already shelved by players.

Now the Goose is reduced as well to 45 rounds, yet NC and TR walk around with 150 round 167-200dmg lmg's which is much higher sustain, than having to manage a heat mechanic at 45 rounds. Basically making the other factions weapons even more OP.

Am I looking at this wrong?

the betel is at 40 rounds now (does that even count as an LMG?) and the cooldown reduce to the long reload time. Also made bloom on it 20% worse (as well as the Orion)

It's nerfed to oblivion and people who did the 5800 kills to earn one are being ripped off.

One of the reasons it was heavily used is the VS LMG arsenal is really lacking which made it bubble to the top. Now that it's effectively gone that lack in the arsenal is going to become really apparent.

Meanwhile I'm over here on TR running a butcher and chaingun secondary both with extended mag. LOLing at the guy with the supposed heat mechanic and unlimited ammo having to reload. LOLing even more when he flounders to switch to a secondary whille the primary cools down then 20% more weapon switch time because they nerfed the forward grip at the same time they added it to the betel.

It's a joke.

I'm done leveling my VS at the moment and am working through TR once more so it's a benefit to me. If I were a VS main I would be livid. Particularly if I had just finished 5x auraxiums to get this thing.

Yes.

The Betel has been the top performing LMG since forever, and not in a "it performs a tiny bit better" but in a "head and shoulders above the rest" situation.

Its also rather interesting that people always bring up the VS LMG arsenal being bad, yet more people have slogged through it to achieve the auraxium LMG than the other factions, again by a large margin. If the arsenal is so bad, how come so many more players subject themselves to them in order to achieve the aurax?

PLAYERS using it have been top performers. Higher KPU / KDR.

How do we know it's the players and not the gun? Simple, the HSR with it. The heat mechanic does not make bullets bend from the body to the head. It's got the same stats practically as the Orion and MSW-R but has a higher headshot ratio than both.

I think this common and false narrative about it being so good are what lead it to being nerfed.

Don't take my word for it...go play around on voidwell
Voidwell

Notice how the KPU of the betel is higher. Then play with the Q1 vs Q4 KPU and see what it shows. Turns out the betel shows it's best stats when in the hands of the best players.

Then look again and that HSR and ask how a gun with the same stats hits heads more.

it's not the gun. it's the player. Always has been. People who are good, can land headshots, and stay alive kinda dig the gun that doesn't run out of ammo. go figure.

Um... to get the only gun in the arsenal that's good. I just said that

It's also a FUN gun to play with. That draws people to it. The heat mechanic is fun stuff. But again I refer above. The head mechanic does not make it more effective.

So now they made the gun ******. The players that used it aren't going anywhere. Ain't nobody going to quit because of this, they'll just switch to something else.

You dont realize that Voidwell actually proves my point?

Look at the starter weapons and you see that the Orion as a weapon already starts with a higher headshot KILLS than its counterparts despite being a starter weapon. This is a nice nod to how the Orion had attachments for years that gave it some superior stats... except that the Betel somehow still triumphed over the Orion even in the Q4 area. Since its the same base weapon and the only changes are that one has attachments to choose and the other had locked attachments but heat ammo... the conclusion should be obvious.
And if you missed it, the fact that the orion already scores better at headshots is again due to the weapon, not the players.

Also if we add NS weapons to the mix... how odd, the VS superior skills disappear when they touch weapons with identical stats to the faction counterparts. Its almost as if its the faction weapons, not the players.

Also also that KPU can come from more than player skill. For example, the weapon being plain superior could bump up that KPU. weird huh?


Also we have stats from after the arsenal update and THE BETEL HASNT LOST ITS TOP SPOT YET. In fact it doesnt look like its actually losing any steam at all. We can draw another conclusion from that: VS players will lament any change as if it destroys their faction (just like when 0.75 ADS was removed supposedly made the Orion and Betel useless, remember that joke?). And these same players will still claim superiority even when its obvious its their weapons.

We've seen this before when 0.75 ADS was removed and players were oh so pissed that there toys were now useless and oh look the weapon performance barely changed a single percentage BUT WE WERE NERFED AND THE WEAPONS ARE USELESS I TELLS YA, and the Orion and Betel will simply remain superior weapons for years to come while the players remain the same average players they've always been, again as evidenced that the superior skill only really happens with faction specific weapons and magically disappears with NS weapons.

Oh really?
Voidwell proves your point?
And it shows when you add the NS weapons with identical stats to the mix that the "VS" (I never said that) superior skills (aka HSR) difference disappears?

That's very, very interesting. Because:
1. The Betel having higher HSR than the more accurate (foregrip/laser) Orion supports what I said: Better players use it.
2. Voidwell doesn't have the new NS weapons at all.
2. The NS-15 that is does have supports what I just said: Voidwell

C'mon man. How does that happen? You didn't go look but implied you did? You looked but lied about what you saw? I assume best intentions from years of chatting with you. I think you told me what you feel so surely about that you didn't check.

Anytime the betel is mentioned it becomes a discussion that invites peoples feelings about it. And that's fine, it has a higher KPU so people are gonna feel that. But it's not a better gun and that's what the facts say. I'm not trying to ******** and I don't have a horse in this race.

Yes it can. It can come from the weapon, the skill of the user, or the type of weapon (sniper < kpu than carbine). So you cannot make determinations from KPU alone.

HSR though is not affected by the heat mechanic. It doesn't have better stats. So what about the weapon makes it hit heads more? Nothing. It's literally the player's aim.

You cannot choose to ignore conclusive evidence in favor of some indeterminant possibility.

Too soon on new stats. Way.
But if it doesn't lose it's top spot after a nerf that implies again that it was the player. Unless you think we patched the human.

I'm sure the people with an emotional attachment to the betel will lament it being nerfed. And I'm sure people on the other side with the purely sething emotional reaction that causes them to spew caps will shout that it is justified.

I feel I can say very objectively that it was over nerfed and I scratch my head as to how this happened. 40 rounds on an LMG can't be said outloud without cracking a smile. I don't know how they did it. The defense of the change is even more comical to me.

Did we see that? Dunno. That was what 8+ years ago? Don't conflate two unrelated events. Or try to use apply justification for a previous event to a current one that isn't necessary.

it doesn't. see above. Stick to the facts.

This frothing and caps lock and side tangents hint to me that you're riled up about this topic or my point. Let me perhaps soothe this one matter: I do not think that VS players are superior players.

I think the superior players within VS (NC and TR have their own) heavily favored a gun. As a result that gun shows higher KPU. People have confused the higher KPU with it being a better gun. It's not. Look at the facts. Look at it's stats. It has one and only one thing that differs from other guns. That is the heat mechanic. And the heat mechanic does not affect HSR.

I don't get why anyone would defend a 40 round mag on a LMG. Doesn't seem objective to me.

You are normally smarter than this.
The Orion is a starter weapon, as shown by the average BR being half that of the Betel. If we compare this to other starter weapons and their aurax counterparts we see a similar rise... Except that the Betel gets far more power boost over it's starter weapon even though the difference is the HEAT mechanic. Weird huh? It's almost as if the weapon itself boosts the stats!

You don't understand my point. It's not about the new NS weapons or about raw NS15 data (which includes all factions). It's about when we compare identical weapons but filter for faction, then compare it. Say the sniper rifles that have copy-paste stats, or shotguns etc. Because with these you can gauge the skill difference of different factions with the same weapon. And what do you know? No significant skill difference there! In fact with some weapons the VS seem to be at the bottom most of the time. How weird is that for a more skilled faction?

It happens because you are comparing a worse weapon available to anyone with certs rather than after scoring a minimum amount of kills on several weapons. So there is a difference in the weapon's performance.

The facts say that especially the betel is a better gun. Especially when you stop comparing apples to oranges. If you look at the difference in auraxium weapons compared to the starter weapon they are based on (not anymore in NC's case but still) then you see that the Betel is miles better. Either because the VS players pull magic skill out of their Aholes or because the weapon has a unique feature that is far more powerful and allows for a different playstyle than the Orion it's based on.

The events are similar:
Years ago, weapons were nerfed and players complained that it destroyed their weapon (it didn't).
Now the weapons are nerfed and players complain that it destroyed their weapon (so far, it hasn't).

Because it's only 40 mag if you magdump. If you use it differently (you know, as most people do outside of a CQC slugfest) it will quickly have more bullets per mag than it's starter weapon counterpart. So far I've found that having more than 50 bullets on LMG's is actually not useful. You'll rarely need it and more often you'll be benefited more from a fast reload. Or if you've got it, a HEAT mechanic that makes you reload without needing to essentially take the weapon offline...

Top performers, who are very likely to choose the absolute best weapon they can access, collectively almost always chose the Betelgeuse over any other weapon available, for years.

Seems like a clear hint the weapon was performing better than the other weapons?

You can tell people are still salty about the goose since no-ones talking about how utterly terrible the darkstar is now.

TBH, Beetlejuice with 45 rounds is still more than any AR and carbine, 24 round Darkstar has 3432 damage per mag, which is pathetic. You need to make every shot count or you'll run out of ammo in anything more intense than 1v1s, and if you're a backline medic you can use objectively better weapons like NS-11A, CME and even the Pulsar at that point.

There was nothing wrong with the 32 round Darkstar, and it should return to that, or at the very least 28 rounds, so 28 x 143 = 4004, which is enough damage potential for four kills.

Nah the people playing the Darkstar are simply bad players! /s
I mean if the players using the Betel are just more experienced then the reverse should be true for the Darkstar!

The thing is, if you want to talk JUST the Darkstar, then you should make a thread about it and I'll listen and see if we can redesign/alter it to be effective. But if you add the Betel, the weapon that has been head and shoulders above the rest for literal years, then you should expect players to complain about it.

I already said "You cannot choose to ignore conclusive evidence in favor of some indeterminant possibility." You are again completely leaving out that:

This gun has a substantially higher HSR than other guns with the same stats. With. The. Same. Stats. The only delta is the heat mechanic. Heat mechanic does not affect HSR.

It's the player doing that.

So it's not that "almost as if the weapon itself boosts the stats!". Those stats are boosted by the player providing a higher HSR. You can't increase HSR without also increasing every other stat that is kill related. KDR/KPU/KPM etc.

It's because you're arguing with a point I didn't make. Watch what you say next....

I didn't say this.
Further more in my last reply I pointed out that I didn't say this.
Now you just said something about me not getting your point. I think you are not getting mine. Please listen to this the third time...

I am NOT saying the VS is a more skilled faction. Period. (please don't make me !#$ repeat this)

What I am saying: There are people within all factions that are skilled. Within one faction, VS in this case, the skilled people within that faction favor a particular LMG. So when you look at the stats of this LMG it shows a higher HSR and thus a higher KPU

No, but very close. That is a part of this. It does take that 5800 kills of practice before you can even start accumulating statistics on the new gun. Does that mean the new gun is OP because the players using it are more experienced?

I've been very careful to look at apples to apples. I am looking at same stat guns (and tossing in the other aurax ones too) Voidwell also parses player performance into quarters. What it shows:

In the bottom quarter the betel KPU is nearly identical to the bottom quarter of others. If it were a superior gun across the board this would not be the case. Fact.

In the upper quarter of players the betel KPU is higher than other identical weapons but so is the HSR. This is the player aiming causing both to be higher. The gun does not aim itself.

... And results in a higher headshot ratio? C'mon man. Stop ignoring a statistically significant flashing neon sign in the stats here.

You are describing why the gun is fun. Not why it is effective. It's effective because the players using it are better. The reason those better players are using it to begin with might be what you're describing here.

The equally better players on NC and TR don't have any one gun they have concentrated to because they have some fantastic choices. I realize fun is subjective but let me know if this seems in the right ballpark to you at least....

Equally FUN (to each other) TR guns: MSW-R, Carv, Butcher, Watchman. Equally FUN (to each other) NC guns: Godsaw, Gaussaw, Anchor, GD-22s, EM6, Promise.

On VS it's: The betelgeuse. Period. Then tied for second place in fun is an Orion and MAW.

All factions have good players but on one faction there is only one gun for them to gravitate to. They perform better so it performs better. It performs better so it gets nerfed. I LOL at the irony and you can too.

I don't know what else to say. It's comical and I'll be over here on the butcher or kindred if you need me

Fun is a factor. See other reply in discussion I'm having with Demigan.

Because I don't think anyone is denying that darkstar changes were bad,
Everyone is pretty much in agreement there.

But as demi said beteldouche has been in its own performance class for YEARS,
Hovering like frekking jesus 20ft above the rest in every metric.
It is long overdue that 'the ******' got a nerf, and was this even a nerf?!
It lost a few bullets per infinite mag but gained attachment access.

Hey vs...10 less than Infinite is still infinite.
You can still farm a few kills, switch to sidearm, and have your crutch fully 'reloaded' when you switch back to it.

Personally I consider losing 10 rounds but gaining attachments as a fairly substantial buff.

Could have fun as Light Assault, but plays Heavy.
Could have fun with C4, but uses medkits.
Grenade bandolier could be fun, but used nanoweave.
Sidearm? Commissioner.
Launcher? Decimator.
Implants? Chosen from same 2-4 meta options.

The typical tryhard loadout is clearly optimized for fun.
"But some people have fun if they perform better."
True. The Betelgeuse did exactly that.

The betel performs better because it's in the hands of the best players on that given faction. It's in their hands because it's fun. People mistake the skill of the user for the gun being OP when the stats simply don't bear that out. Mistaken correlation and emotions (that lead to things like "try hard" becoming a pejorative) by the masses led to a nerf that was stupid.

I'll try again.

The betel is the Auraxium version of the best performing LMG type in the game. The Orion is its only true copy, the MSW-R having a different recoil pattern and the Anchor having a different damage profile.

But there's more going on. As Auraxium weapon it stands to reason that experienced players use it, but we dont see the same increase at the other auraxium weapons compared to their carbon copies (besides that they are based on less well performing weapons). And those auraxium weapons dont have ground breaking unique abilities to set them apart in infantry combat.
The Betel does. Its HEAT mechanic is a useful tool for fighting. It encourages even more burst firing to make use of it, which *tadaa* increases the likelyhood of a headshot kill. What people often dont realize is that the killing blow counts for a headshot in the HSR, so you cant "farm" HS ratio by shooting MAX's in the face. And since its the last shot and COF grows with each shot increasing the likelyhood of a bullet hitting the torso it means that even more focus on bursting is good. On top of that the ability to reload without making the gun useless lets you win fights when enemies surprise you, fights where headshots are easier to pull off.
Games are strange things. The right sound can make or break two identical weapons. League of Legends had a patch which changed a particular hero and there was a noticeable change in performance and complaints, only for the devs to realize the changes never went live by accident and it was all in their heads.

But again, even the Orion, a starter weapon for crying out loud, performs better at headshots than the TR and NC equivalents. And not only do the VS start with such a weapon, they also get an Aurax version WITH HEAT mechanic? How can anyone wonder if its OP or not? Where the Butcher and GodSAW barely get 1.5 times the performance of the weapon they are based on the Betel does 3x as good! Damn right people pick it "just for fun", because its a cheap and easy power trip!

I think the illusion that the betel is a better gun is all in your head. Same stats but hits heads better? Must be the gun, not the player? Huh?

But Ok I'll try again too:

Why does the betel have a higher HSR than guns with identical aiming statistics (yes Anchor is a 167 dmg). Including the Orion which is technically better as it had a foregrip?

You mention bursting does this. Ok, yes that helps.
Does the gun burst itself? No.
Are the other guns incapable of bursting? Also no.

So what does the bursting? The player.

You are further supporting my point that it's the player.

Why did we nerf the gun?

No. It doesn't. it performs identical to the equivalents: Voidwell
The Carv and SAW underperform it's HSR but they are not identically spec'd weapons.
The recent starter weapon adjustment for NC, the GD-22S performs identical: Voidwell

I can. I didn't let my emotions about it get to me (I'm on the receiving end of it too) and looked at the facts.. I've just explained it above in many posts in great detail. It performs identical in the hands of average players. It outperforms in the hands of players with high HSR. The gun itself isn't OP other than the players are OP.

The GodSAW and the Carv underperform the Orion. The Anchor and MSW-R which are equivalent do NOT underperform the Orion. They and the Orion share the same statistics as the betel. Yet it has ... coming in a circle here... a higher HSR than all three of them. It. is. the. player.

I cannot ignore the HSR difference. I critical thinking won't let me pretend it away. If you want to change my mind on this topic you're going to have to explain it.

If you can't, then I suggest maybe you change your own mind on the topic. Maybe I'm on to something here.

This is anecdotal but I think it might help for some clarity...

I started as a VS main thanks to friends and was convinced all VS guns were hot garbage compared to the other two factions, especially TR. I *finally* found a serviceable LMG after trying around 5 of them. I auraxed it, then googled up what I should do next and some people said the Orion was fine. I went back to it and it worked well enough.

So one of two things happened, either I got good enough to manage with a "bad" gun, or I learned how to use VS weapons.

I'm convinced it was the latter, and that VS guns are mostly just the most wonky of the three factions. On the other end of the spectrum, I think its a common PS2 experience to get CARV'd up by some low rank noob, just because of how forgiving and intuitive TR weapons are.

I got the Betel myself and used it for one session and... it felt like I had enabled hacks. I chase directives so I shelved it for that reason, but I definitely feel like it warranted the nerf. I think the "better players use the Betel for some reason unrelated to the weapon's capabilities" argument ignores how there is a skill in learning VS weapons, but once you get it you're good and there shouldn't be an OP weapon to reward you for that knowledge.