Coyote Missles "Helping" the "New players" in the air game.

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Scr1nRusher, Apr 28, 2014.

  1. FireclawX

    How about instead of arguing about Coyotes being OP'd or not helpful enough for new players... Lets try to fix them.
    It's obvious that their broken as hell.

    Step 1: Make them like flak. Increase their spread so they can only be used in close quarters.
    Step 2: Lower the cert cost to 500ish, so their actually helping the players who their supposed to help.
    Step 3: Implement a higher skilled all around range secondary weapon for experienced pilots who have certs to spend. (Not sure if the tomcats actually fit this role atm) It's always an option to modify one or some of the existing weapons to fit this role.
  2. Epic High Five

    I find the loadout of Airhammer/Coyotes works well because if I want to be useful and productive I'll fight on the ground. If I'm up in the air it's to harvest skygod tears. These two weapons harvest more tears per mag than any other weapons ime

    If you change the Coyotes then I'll have to go back to ramming. Don't make me do that it's far less efficient
  3. Whatupwidat

    Aye, then we can rename the game "Airzergside 2" and finally scrap the entire land-based aspect of it :rolleyes:
  4. Paragon Exile

    Removing lock-ons, or nerfing them, would be a boon for everyone. SOE could possibly include a weak flak gun for heavies instead.
  5. Whatupwidat

    Considering I only ever get kills with my lock-on AA rocket when the pilot is being a derp - I see no problem in them whatsoever.

    Maybe have chaff/flares be default or a slot on their own for every ESF would be better than removing the infantry's only real multi-use AA weapon?
  6. TheBlazing

    The reason why there is so much lock-on hate, and why lock-ons are so goddamn hard to balance, is that they are unavoidable.

    Take a look at this. (Skip to around 1:56).

    Can you see how many lock-on missiles the guy is getting towards his plane? And can you see how almost every single weapon in the game is a lock-on? Imagine that in Planetside 2 with its wonky lock mechanics.

    In Ace Combat lock-on missiles can be easily avoided, and thus, can be made easy to use and highly spammable because half-decent pilots will be able to dodge most of them anyways; also not the much better red ring-style lock direction indicator. They are also surprisingly good deterrents - see how the huge flying fortress keeps launching missiles everywhere, but the risk of being hit for real only presents itself when the pilot actually aims at the enemy and aligns in preparation for an attack? That's a deterrent - I have played that mission myself it works wonderfully - I can easily dodge all of those missiles until I decide that it's time to strike and come closer to the flying fortress, and in that moment the "detterent" becomes deadly if I hang around for too long.

    TL;DR: Making lock-ons Ace Combat-style easily avoidable but also easily usable could not only make them more fun, balanced and skill-based, but also make them better deterrents from the point of view of ground troops.
    • Up x 1
  7. entrailsgalore

  8. Liquidrider

    They are fun against infantry mainly because they are effective and a Reaver's rocketpod has a slow fire rate. I will use coyotes when they are being used on me or if I am in a 3+ v 1 situation.

    Trust me, I hate coyotes more than anyone especially since all I do is pilot. They are incredibly in-balanced and I am not defending them. I am just tired of getting killed by them in a 1 v 1 fight. When you get down to the needy greedy I will do what is necessary to win a battle in the sky's for my Faction, my outfit, my platoon, my squad and my goose.

    I do hope SOE adjusts coyotes. Because a skilled pilot is bad enough, but one with Coyote is just evil :)
  9. Silkensmooth

    Hmm you dont see the skill because its all about learning and practice. What exactly do you think skill is? You learn a skill. Then you practice it to get better at it. You just defined skill and then said it wasn't that.

    Coyotes are lame because someone with less skill can win with them. They arent a sidegrade, they are a clear upgrade. Pilots that i can not beat with my nosegun i have no problem beating if i equip coyotes.

    In a game that is based on aiming you literally do NOT have to aim the coyotes. Just be close enough. I have hit people who werent even on my screen just by flying close and spamming the button. As long as you are within 10 meters they will hit every time.

    When you get skilled at using them, because yes there are ways of using them that take some learning and practice, (not nearly as much as a nosegun but some), you become unbeatable by anyone who is not using them.

    Coyotes are not fun to use. The skill ceiling is so low you are soon hitting your head on it. I, and i would think most people that play a FPS, prefer a higher skill ceiling that allows for continual improvement over a long period of time. If i can master something in a few days i will certainly get bored with it.

    Most of the people who advocate for coyotes and imo the even worse a2a missiles are the type of people who don't want to compete. They want to outnumber their opponent every time. They will happily use the most cheeze weapons on a regular basis. And i believe based on most of the conversations that i have had with people in the game are a very vocal minority.
  10. Silkensmooth

    Then you are bad. All you have to do is lock on people engaged in a dogfight and collect certs. No skill and no risk. Yay so much fun for everyone.

    Go fly an ESF for a while and you will find yourself constantly running from invisible people on the ground. Not such a big deal if you are running an A2G loadout, but when you have only ab tanks and a nosegun its re tar dead. You cant retaliate and you spend all of your time running from these things.

    If you find yourself in a dogfight and some invisible guy on the ground starts locking you, you will die every time, with no way of evading the lock or retaliating.

    Sounds fun right? Can't imagine why the game pop is dying.

    Instead of just fixing things like splash damage and thermals they sell a million lock on weapons and now everyone just hates everyone and its a huge mess.

    Lock-ons are just a very frustrating and unfun game mechanic for the vast majority of the playerbase. As a game maker i would try to reduce frustrating game mechanics so that people feel that they are dying in 'fair' fights rather than getting farmed or cheesed.
  11. Teshrrar

    No, it's not the problem of lock-on, it's the problem of the air game be a different game than Planetside 2, a particular game for the "exclusive" players who want have a PvP on a game which should be a WAR game. The air today how you guys want just serve to annoy the ground and isolate who want to be overall but can't fly, and you are the "fun seeker" who wants fun for everyone, right?

    I put my ESF on air today just to destroy those players with no purpose. You guys don't wanna fight a war, just feed your egos. I wanna see the air game have a purpose, be part of the war. You want your own minigame to hunt some numbers and feel "special".

    The technological air game of PS2 should have ONLY tech weapons, for a single purpose: the air help the ground win the war! The ESF certed for ground should fly low and be the only with the capacity of stop in the air. Wanna farm the ground? Take this risk. An ESF certed for air should never stop in the air and should be responsible for hunt the Liberator, who should fly high to avoid AA. Now you need an AA ESF, you have a purpose. Now the ground have fun putting those farmers down, because if you take your "Helicopter ESF" without ground colaboration to detain AA, you will fail. If you take your AA ESF without other air unities in the air, you have no purpose. End of minigame, start the air war.

    So keep assuming wherever you want about anyone who ask for a decent air game in PS2, I don't give a ****. Just don't deny which a HUGE number of players want the end of this stupid minigame and act how you and the less than 1% who want to be "exclusives" are right.
  12. Whatupwidat

    No skill?

    Yeah, because in the middle of a firefight, stopping to aim a rocket launcher into the sky and NOT get killed by ground infantry requires absolutely zero skill whatsoever.

    It's a combined arms game dude - not "AIR POWER SIMULATOR 2000".

    Get used to it :)
  13. Silkensmooth

    The combined arms argument has been used to defend zoe max, vanguard shield, prowler lockdown velocity, AV mana turrets, strikers, lock-ons, splash damage, the list goes on and on.

    You can quite safely fire a lock-on from inside a spawn room. From a deserted base where you are just hanging out waiting to ambush planes. If you lock-on to people in the middle of an intense firefight then you are an idiot.

    That has nothing to do with lock-ons.

    My suggestion for lock-on launchers to bring them in line and to make them perform the task for which they were designed is to make them dumbfire coyote style missiles. That way they would be able to easily hit hovering or slow moving planes close to the ground with greater ease than the current system, while preventing griefers from just locking onto every plane that flies within 450 meters whether or not it has any intention of attacking the ground.

    Lock-ons are currently very similar to the way av mana turrets were in that their range is excessive. They are nearly impossible to run from, and their source is not rendering. If you try to follow the lock trail back to the user with only a nosegun then it is very likely you will die long before you have a chance to kill the lock on user.

    By changing the rockets they would become almost useless at range, but far more effective up close where you really need them.

    For example, say im in a base and there is a lib overhead killing me and my team mates. So i decide to get a lock on launcher and shoot at him. Im probably going to die before i get a lock. BUT if i had a dumbfire coyote that would lock on just like coyotes, i could jump out fire a rocket and duck back in before the lib has time to target me.

    I could do the same thing with a dumbfire, but obviously its pretty hard to hit a lib thats circling with a dumbfire when you are trying to pop ion and out to avoid getting OHK.

    When im infantry i dont need to lock onto a2a ESF that are just flying by, or engaged with other ESF, and due to rendering issues its not a good game mechanic to allow me to do so.

    Its no different than AV mana turrets. When im locking onto air with my striker i never die. I'm never at risk. With something that costs no resources i can easily take away someones vehicle. It's boring and unfun, and as someone who cares about the game and my fellow players its not something i find myself wanting to use. And i certainly don't enjoy dying to them either.
  14. Whatupwidat

    So.... "It kills me so I hate it" ?

    Good argument - could use almost the exact same one for grenades :rolleyes:

    Also, the idea that there's some people sitting in deserted bases with lockon launchers waiting for ESFs to fly by is just....well absolutely ******* mental to be honest.
  15. Silkensmooth

    Except that grenades cost resources. Grenades are one time use unless you have a bandolier. Grenades are pretty easy to get away from. Grenades arent guaranteed to hit anything. If you are throwing a grenade at me then i can render you. There is very little chance you will hit me with a grenade, and every chance that i will kill you when you come running in the room.

    See thats pretty balanced. Grenades are zero skill weapons, but they are also very weak weapons that are easily countered by skill.

    And its not mental to see people at deserted bases using locks and flak. Go fly by the crown when an enemy faction owns it and no one is attacking it. You will find someone manning at least one of the AA turrets and often you will find lock-on users. This is when there are no enemies anywhere near the crown.

    But you like to pull your lock-on out and try to hit planes with it in the middle of a firefight, so im inclined to think you dont know how to play very well.

    Btw, how much flight time do you have? I just love it when people come and talk as though they are all knowing when they have never even been in an ESF or a lib and had to deal with lock-ons.

    Typical ignorant forumside warrior.
  16. Epic High Five

    Lock-ons should wreck aircraft. This is a combined arms game after all you can't just entirely exclude infantry from a whole type of combat going on
  17. Bujias

    Can we leave the G2A lock ons alone they are not game breaking as the really disgusting A2A lock ons, besides thats what the thread was created for.

    Look i don't want everything in a silver plater kill me with flak or g2a lock ons its annoying yes but i get what they are for in the game i use them if have the need to, and im not saying this as a pilot, i say it as a player who enjoys tanking infantry and air.

    But the air is really bad right now dedicated pilots quitting left and right, tons of discussions and complaints about the new OP no skill required weapons, boring gameplay where whoever has more a2a lock ons win, skill don't matter half as much as it does in the ground, it use to be the most difficult part of the game, skill use to matter more than any other place, not anymore, a good tanker by himself can make a difference in a fight, a good infantry guy will do the same, a good leader can change the flow of an entire fight, on an esf tough there is no way to make a difference anymore, unless your using AG, wich just creates more hate for pilots and ground guys going against anything pilots beg for like in the coyotes discussion, so many ground guys that have defended coyotes just because it pisses most pilots off... realize this, the more coyotes there are the more libs and AG esfs you will see, as dedicated A2A esfs are a lot fewer and a lot less skilled to get rid of those amazing lib crews.

    Please give me back the fun gameplay i had in the air, im getting tired of always tanking or ground pounding i wanna get back in the air, i miss my fights in the air where skilled matter and i could make a difference, and im not even that good, but i use to be able to do it, i guess i still could with coyotes, but any half decent lib crew would chase me away, if im getting farm by some lib or AG esf i want to be able to pull an esf and kill them without 5 no skilled esfs being able to destroy me in half a second because they have coyotes, yes i get it, 6 vs 1 i shouldnt be able to kill them all unless im amazing like some ground guys or some tankers are, but at least let me kill the esf farming me like i was able to do back in the day, im able to kill a max before the 5 guys with less skill on point destroy me, im able to kill a less skilled vanguard or magrider before they realize whats happening, why cant i do that in an esf anymore? Yes i guess i could use coyotes, but it makes on difference if im alone, besides the fact that i find not satisfaction in such an easy to win weapon, its like using exploits/hacks or something where is the fun in push and win?
  18. GaBeRock

    G2A Lockons are pretty broken right now, in the sense that, despite being an air-deterrant, they're better at killing dogfighting ESFs completely ignoring the ground than A2G planes screwing with ground, because libs/galaxies are too tanky too care about them, and A2G esfs can easily duck behind cover. With the valkyrie update in mind, they should be short ranged weapons (200 meters to start the lock) that do more damage (50% of an ESFs health, twice as much damage as they currently do to galaxies. At that range, a team of two lockon heavies could annhihilate any air farming that infantry that puts itself at risk (a fair tradeoff, since the rockets take no skill, and cost no resources) but at the same way they don't interfere with those dogfighting ESFs not interfering with ground.

    Afterwards, skyguards could use some more dps to libs and galaxies, to reinforce the idea of pulling vehicles to kill vehicles, rather than pulling infantry.

    As for coyotes, they're strictly better than AB tanks for dogfighting, and need to be nerfed. I no longer bother to run nosegun/ab since I know I'd be killed by any coyote scrub anyways, and lolpods are necesary to do enough damage to kill libs and galaxies before they can escape to freindly territory.