Coyote Missles "Helping" the "New players" in the air game.

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Scr1nRusher, Apr 28, 2014.

  1. DQCraze

    it is my hope that all esf pilots are shot into the sun along with all ground lockons and skyguards, so that I may liberate in peace.
  2. Ravenwolf Foxtrack

    A2A is a mix for me. I don't have them on my VS or TR, I have tom's on my NC, but the problem is trying to out-maneuver the coyotes. It is possible and I have broken their locks a few times. But when you are not as experienced as say, recursion or future crew crack head pilots, or even some of the ADK and 666 guys, you tend to just die.... a lot. I've been getting into the air game, and have had some successful 1v1 dog fights, and they are fun, even if I do lose them, but I find the lock-on's and flack can ruin the dog fight. Now I'm not saying take those out or anything, because they are needed. Just that if you are going to get into an aerial dog fight, be up for nose gunning. With that said, I do wish i had the 'yotes on board for air conflicts, and even more so for hunting libs and gal's. I just find that the majority of the time I'm using rocket pods as there is ground armor targets to take out for supporting the ground. I've used the lolrockets on gals and libs successfully too, but not as often when taking on ground.

    Over all, unless you are uber MLG crackhead gamer like the recursion and future crew guys that live 20 hours a day in game, you shouldn't worry about the cheapness of coyotes to bring a balancer to the air fight.
  3. bPostal

    At least we can agree on something, although my guess is that we'll both have to wait for the resource revamp before continuing on with that line of discussion.

    Just because the skill ceiling is high doesn't mean the skill floor needs to be incredibly high as well. ESFs should be just as easy to pick up and use as infantry or ground vehicle combat. The learning curve isn't so much a curve as a cliff and those who are learning to fly don't have any climbing equipment beyond weapons such as these.

    When I jumped into the pilot seat the first time I was curbstomped, but I was messed up so badly that I never felt like I had a chance to even fight back. Without the ability to at least begin to climb that learning cliff, what incentive is there to improve in the first place? It's not like you can go into the VR to practice anything beyond the basics. You can't practice dogfighting, you don't even have moving targets for gunnery practice.

    Your gripe with them is the reason I enjoy them. As I noted above, the beginning pilot such as myself is highly disincentive to even try flying. Pulling a mossie, only to lose it a minute later to someone who was able to fly so well that I couldn't even track them, let alone engage them, sends me back to the WG with a 15 min timer (I've since been able to cert it down), and a hefty chunk of my air resources gone. That doesn't send the message "Shoot some guys on the ground until your timer/resources is up then give it another go soldier!" It sends the message "**** flying. **** pilots. **** this game. **** everything. Nerf! Nerf! Nerf!"

    By their very nature, pros and noobs will use such weapons in different manners. A noob may use a JH (for example) at a tower fight. A pro may use a JH as a LA and fly around like a c*nt. Same weapon, two very different playstyles due to experience and inherent skill. If a pro pilot is able to fly in such a manner that I can't even get them in front of me (or tell which direction I'm getting shot at) then my Coyotes do me no good. As far as balance goes, Domination should never be the goal. As I mentioned above, forcing players into situations where their only chance at playing is a continuous and unabated curbstomping is a disincentive to continue playing. Make no mistake, as someone who's learning to fly and dogfight, you are being forced into such a position (BOHICA) every time you hop into an aircraft.

    Speed, Maneuverability and Firepower. Those are the hallmarks of ESFs in this game. If they are going to continue to be overwhelming in their flexibility and presence on the battlespace then care must be taken to ensure that they don't have a disproportional impact on the fight.
    Making it easier for the new and average player to hop into an ESF to take the fight to these lolpodding ********* is, in my mind, how you go about balancing it. The only problem is that this needs to be done in such a fashion as to keep personal skill as the primary factor. Weapons such as the Coyotes ease the transition and level the playing field; a playing field that must be level or risks attracting the ire and disgust of every non-pilot while doing away with the concept of balance (as it relates to the design philosophy of 'A BR1 can go toe to toe with a BR100') as we understand it in PS2.

    I'm using them as a crutch because I feel that if I don't, I can't even kneel let alone stand.
    • Up x 6
  4. Phyr

    Lock ons won't go away so long as effective AA remains behind resource costs.
  5. RebelRanger

    I started flying before coyotes were out, I got killed a lot but slowly learned, whether by flying or watching youtube vids. Now I'm a slightly experienced pilot. I don't think coyotes should be removed from the game, they do help people who fly, but they need a large nerf, probably with their damage. Coyotes should give a new pilot an easier time, but not like they're doing now. Here's some of the problems with coyotes that we should be looking at.

    1. No counters, due to the range coyotes are used at flares really do 0 good.
    2. High reward but not high risk.
    3. Too much damage

    So, there's what I find wrong with coyotes. It should be used to start out new pilots, but currently there is not reason why you wouldn't use coyotes.
    • Up x 2
  6. zukhov

    The only problem I have is that they can hit something directly to the rear if its within 15m or so.
  7. Rift23

    It is my sincere hope that they'll take air of PS2 when it finally leaves beta.
  8. Srazor

    Vanu Scythes don't need coyotes they have the best default nose gun in the game: Saron Lasor Cannon, it's a beast.
    Give me the same stats as the saron nose cannon on my mossy or reaver and i'll ditch the coyotes. SOE will never make the default nose cannons for all 3 factions have the same exact stats. Coyotes Stay!

    It's mostly scythes I noticed while dogfighting, that they don't have coyotes equipped. That's because they don't need them. They usually have rocket pods equipped so they can be versatile and take out air and ground targets. That's what I do when piloting a scythe.
  9. AssaultPig

    it would make more sense to call them the shotgun of the air

    I don't really get what the big problem with them is to be honest. There's a short range A2A weapon, a longer range A2A weapon, and an A2A fit that lets you easily pick your range (tanks.) People seem to feel like tanks+nosegun is the One True A2A Fit and everybody should just learn to use it without ever much reasoning as to why
    • Up x 2
  10. Monkeydmomo

    This game isn't a competitive multiplayer game it lost that chance a long time ago.
  11. CaliBased

    i have the coyote variant on my liberator tail gun. absolutely awful. none of my tail gunners land kills.
  12. Spadar

    I think my main issue with them isn't that they're effective, it's that the way they're used is extremely spammy. Once you've certed reload time a bit, they reload and fire so quickly that you can get away with almost exclusively using coyote missiles.

    In contrast, with A2AM you have a pretty significant gap between missiles that encourages the use of some gun play. If the Coyotes say had a slightly higher burst DPS with a longer reload is would open up more room for countering them and make them a little more situational. I still think that Stealth should offer some sort of passive bonus against them, like a reduced lock radius. Right now it doesn't really matter if you time your flares to interrupt a salvo of Coyotes because there will be another one coming a second or two later. Fuel Tanks don't really offer much against them as well, since they've shifted away from afterburners having a benefit to cruise speed (See racer buff). This means that a Coyote-Racer ESF can keep pace with an Fuel Tank-Racer ESF over vast distances (Entire map-lengths).

    As it stands if a pilot who has a decent grasp on maneuvering slots them and goes up against less experienced pilots, they can kind of just faceroll them while focusing on evading shots. Especially if these pilots haven't realized yet that if you keep making forward-flying passes on a hovering, coyote wielding opponent, you are doomed to fail.

    If the goal of Coyotes were to make green pilots with little understanding of the game able to put up a bit of a fight in the air, they've failed miserably. They'd make more headway by ironing out the mechanics behind flight to make it more intuitive. Like putting in a button for manually toggling your engine mode (hover or forward flight) rather than relying on a vague keybind (analog throttle) and aircraft movements. (Or you could keep nerfing it into the ground, that works too!)
    • Up x 1
  13. JoCool

    Can you stop those whining threads. It's always by the same people, here and on reddit. The "flavour of the nerf" again. It is really getting annoying.

    Equipping Coyotes, you forfeit the ability to run away. If you have Ext ABs on max level (I do), you can run from ANY Coyote user. Any Needler is way more effective in pursueing! What is it that people do not understand about that?

    Also, many people do not have the time to "become pro-1337 elite" with Needler or Rotary. And, many really seem to dislike this developing elitist-pilot crap. So, for the disadvantages that come with them, they can use Lock-On missiles. It is not like there are counters to them missing.

    Most of the reddit-leets just hate to adapt their playstyle and give up their 25% Fire Suppression. Ever flown with maxed out Flares? A guy answered me "they are useless". What about countering lock-ons with them did he not understand? -.-
    • Up x 1
  14. DQCraze

    I don't see why they can't Institute all the modern day aiming assist devices we have in our new US F35B. The world's top pilots use Em why can't we.
  15. entrailsgalore

    So, you personally asked every single new player in the game, and they all came to that conclusion? Do you have a Poll or something to show us your research?

    And since when did the US Military or any Military for that matter, stop using Lock on Weapons? I mean, I know Planetside 2 is a fictional game, but it is supposed to represent a possible near future, and since we us Lock-On weapons here in the 21-st century, it would be logical to assume we would still use them in the future. Did something happen where Humans abandoned lock-ons? Like... the targeting systems used in lock-on technology caused an adverse side effect such as warping gravity fields around stars, causing their solar systems to implode on each other, so we stopped using them?

    I mean, even if the game is a work of fiction, Lock-ons are a reality, and a game based on Pseudo reality, such as Warfare, Lock-Ons make sense. They may not be fun for you if you are the target of Lock-ons, but that is the point of them and why they engineered many many years ago. Why stop at lock-ons? Firing bullets seems pretty OP, getting shot by a sniper you can't see and dying instantly is frustrating enough, so remove all guns and we will instead use our fists. Vehicles enabling your enemies to get to bases before you do is also OP, everything must be fair so we should all run everywhere. Ressing other players? Super OP and unrealistic, when someone dies on the battlefield in RL, that is it they are done, so get rid of the Medic Class. How about Engineers? Make it so it takes 3 weeks to repair a tank, that would make more sense right? WAIT....we're taking Vehicles out of the game, so actually they are no longer needed. C4? It's too cheesy for someone to float above you, drop C4 all over you like they have diarrhea and blow you to bits, remove that as well. Infiltrator cloak? Not real and overpowered, remove it. Objectives? They are too hard, and it takes so much time to take bases, let's just remove those too. We should also get rid of Jetpacks, shields, spotting, Drop Pods, and respawn points...all OP and give players too much of an advantage. We all start at the Warpgate and then walk from there. Also Warping to another continent is unrealistic, instead we would have to swim to the other continents if we want to switch over, which could take days manually swimming.

    There that sounds like a more fun, realistic, and fair game right? Jeez just reading this over, I am wondering why SOE didn't just start with this from the beginning, sounds like a game no one would complain about, and one that you would be happy with! Because if YOU are happy, then the rest of us are happy as well! You know what we like so well, so we trust your judgment.
    • Up x 1
  16. Mxiter

    Coyotes helps new players:

    previously they were farmed by every ESFs decent pilots.

    Now they have a chance to beat rotary+rocketpods ESFs and to damages pure A2A ones.

    What is wrong to makes A2A fighter better at AA?

    It might deserve a reload speed upgrade nerf, but they are fine as close range AA dedicated weapon.
  17. Yuki10

    Coyotes are fine. And no - i don't even have them unlocked (never purchased), but i do fly quite a bit (mostly in a lib these days).
  18. bPostal

    To be fair, it's much, much, much harder to flare Coyotes than it is Tomcats. Coyotes are typically used at close range and even if you flare them (again, rather hard to do) then you've still got 6 more coming at you in a few seconds.

    A change to their lockon (or even removing the lockon and make them flak in that they simply explode if you're 'close enough') would be acceptable to me so that they're still useful to helping newer pilots like myself while not being overbearing.
    • Up x 1
  19. SushiCW

    It is, however, an extremely effective deterrent that requires little tailgunner skill to use as such. If your third passenger is a random gunner, it will keep you alive longer.
  20. SevenTwo

    Actually, making the Coyotes a type of dumbfire "flak" missile does make a lot of sense to me. It'll make them less useful at longer range, further defining the A2A lock on missiles (Tomcats etc.), while still giving "low aim" pilots a chance to do at least some damage up close against experienced nose gunners without needing perfect aim.

    The effectiveness of such an implementation would be inversely proportionate with range, as you'd have to lead your target as you'd do with a nosegun to get any decent hits, making nosegunning a much more valid alternative in anything but extreme closeup fights - which then also helps define the role of the noseguns (mid- long range AA).

    That way the Coyotes will stay an attractive rookie option for dealing with experienced pilots at "sniffing distance" (seriously, as a rookie you have zero chance in a CQC hover fight), while being an unattractive option to experienced pilots, who'd get more value out of other options (like running Fuel or other missile loadouts).
    • Up x 2