Could the standard AV weapons be fixed now?

Discussion in 'MAX' started by Makora, Aug 16, 2013.

  1. Makora

    Seriously! SOE, you are practically DEMANDING that TR and NC use Fractures and Ravens as the "default" AV option.

    What is wrong with them: Convergence. Almost all Max weapons center their aim at the point you are aiming at. Meaning right and left gun will always aim at the center of your screen.
    Not so with the pounders and falcons, the point where the projectiles line up enough to hit infantry when aimed at center is 30m.

    Now I know what most of you are thinking: "Those are anti-vehicle weapon, why should you be shooting at infantry for?!" Well lets ask our dear friend Comet. What makes it so special that it is the only standard AV weapon that does not suffer from convergence?
    Maybe because it has only 2 rounds in a magazine? Nope, the Falcon has only 1 shot per every reload. So ammunition is not the deciding factor. Pounders have 4, but you really need those 4.
    Same with trajectory; the pounder has the most drop of all three, with Comets flying VS straight. Granted the Comet has the slowest projectiles, but 90m/s vs 100 of the pounder and falcon isn't really that big of a difference in my opinion.
    Damage wise the pounder does the least damage of the three in direct and indirect damage. With 425 direct and 75 indirect up to 0.5m dropping to 1 at 3m. Comet deals 475 direct and 80 indirect at 0.5 down to 1 at 3m. Falcon deals 875 direct and does same indirect as the Comet.
    Reload wise the Comet is the fastest with a 1.5 short and 1.75 long. Pounders have a 1.75 short and a 2 second long reload. Flacons got the stick with a 2.1 second reload (seriously, 2.1? why not a solid 2)

    Granted, the Falcon can OHK a standard infantryman. But that you have to reload per every shot makes this weapon decidedly unsuited for AI. The Pounder needs 4 direct hits to kill an infantryman, with 4 shots in a magazine and quite noticeable drop. Comet needs 2 hits and because it actually has working convergence, those two shots (with a 2 shot magazine) are quite easy to land without as much guesswork as to just how much to the side you have to aim.

    So, options.
    We either add convergence on the pounder and falcon. Or remove it from the Comet. The most straightforward "Buff this or nerf that" approach. Comet is a standard AV weapon, just like pounder or falcon. So it should get no special treatment.

    Second approach is a bit more creative. We don't mess with convergence, we change other aspects. We leave comet as is. Convergence is it's shtick, the special thing.
    For falcon we buff the projectile speed. Like really buff it. it's practically a rocket launcher, lets make it into a proper rocket launcher.
    As for the Pounders, we buff the AoE damage and range. It's name is "M3 Pounder HEG" HEG standing for High Explosive Grenade. It might be a grenade, but by no means is it "High Explosive". This would turn this weapon into a proper mortar system with some solid indirect fire support capability.

    So, ideas and views on this? I know convergence on the Pounder has been a hot topic for quite a few people. Haven't heard that much talk about the Falcons but then again I don't Forumside that much.
    • Up x 1
  2. Shatters

    Sidenote: falcons are more like 40m/s, The tooltip is wrong.
  3. Makora

    Felt so too, but it's the only official source I have and hearsay is not a reliable source.
  4. Purg

    The Comet also has convergence, just further out than the Falcons and Pounders.

    You're right though, the Comet is a devastating weapon (especially when you turn ZOE on) where the other two aren't valid options versus the Ravens and the Fractures. For me, the NC have it the worst because of the low velocity of both of their AV options make hitting fast moving vehicle difficult if not downright impossible at times.

    I've said it a dozen times before and I'll say it again, allow the user to adjust the convergence on the scroll wheel in 50m increments. Aim center mass on a tank 90 degrees to you at 300m with Falcons and there's a decent chance both projectiles will pass either side. If you ranged it between 250-350 convergence, both projectiles would hit.
    • Up x 1
  5. Makora

    I don't quite follow you about the Comet. The comet is accurate at all sensible ranges. Even point blank it simply won't miss unless you can't aim. I have never noticed it to miss targets when aimed at center mass.

    As for the incremental convergence... it's an option but it's basically inventing a square wheel. Why muttle about with mouse scrolls when you could simply have it automatic like 98% of the other MAX weaponry in the game. It's kind of a weird idea, I can't find use for such a system unless you are purposefully trying to miss something in order to hit something else. and if it's small enough to not be hit with the blind-spot when close, then it's too small to cover you from fire.
  6. Purg

    I was firing on an AV turret yesterday with my Comet that was ~200m away. I had to aim the pipper to the left and fire one arm to hit it. Aimed at the turret and fired both and the projectiles crossed and went either side of the AV turret.


    I'd prefer if all MAX AV weapons had to have convergence dialed in for maximum effectiveness.[/quote][/quote]
  7. Van Dax

    honestly it sounds like you didn't test the comets out.
    1. it takes 3 hits to kill within 30 meters, the comets have an arming range or reverse damage falloff. ZOE adds just a tiny bit more damage to make it a two shot but we aren't balancing the pounders against lockdown are we?
    2. it does indeed have a convergence range, go to VR and fire some shots at a distant hill, you will see they cross over like the falcons and pounders do. however it seems like they start out closer together than the others and have a less aggressive angle.

    3. Your only points and complaints are about the lack of anti infantry ability, these are specialized av weapons they should be incredibly inefficient against infantry.

    what should actually change is less drop on pounders and higher velocity on falcons, the pounders already do the nearly the same damage per shot as the comet with double the magazine so they do need some downsides. In reality the fact that the fractures take the best qualities of the comet, more than doyble the velocity and 5 times the magazine with no deadzone will make sure that no TR ever uses the pounders even if they were brought in line.
    • Up x 1
  8. Pikachu

    Limitation
    There is no good reason why we can't have MAX AV weapons to be as useful against infantry as the rocket launchers of HA. All it does is taking away fun. These weapons would not somehow be overpowered against infantry nor would it hurt your brain. All it would do is to add more fun to use these weapons and give the MAX a very limited ability to shoot infantry outdoors. Improved AI capabilities for MAX AV weapons would not replace their AI weapons.

    Convergence points
    First generation MAX AV weapons has always had a minimum range for their closest convergence point and it doesn't add anything good to the game. We don't need it. The second generation has no minimum range, they can hit infantry when they are standing toe to toe with the MAX. No weapons should have a minimum range for it's closest convergence point.
    [IMG]

    About damage
    Falcons can not kill infantry with 1 hit. There are only rumors and VR evidence that they could do it pre-GU07 when they had 750 direct damage and 250 indirect. Comets seem to require 4 shots to kill and at random moments 2 shots with ZOE. The results in VR with comet does not match real game. Also there is no reason why we must have such low indirect damage. Even pre-GU7 MAX AV weapons had too low indirect damage to be meaningful. They had 1/3 of their direct damage, while HA rocket launchers have 58%. We should have that ratio too for MAX AV weapons.

    Projectile
    Pounder has way too much drop to be useful and doesn't need the the amount of smoke it makes when it travels in the air. Fracture has way less smoke, it's hardly noticable. Falcon has thick smoke trails as well and it also makes smoke clouds on hit since GU07. We don't need that cr*p. Also the change of turning falcon projectiles from shells into glowing rockets was not needed either, it just ruins the fun. The speed buff for comet from 60 to 90 was agreat but changing falcon from having a constant speed of 90 to having a initial velocity of 50 and then slowly accelerate to 100 is idiotic. Even at 50m range the velocity is almost still 50m. They should have a constant speed of 100.

    TL, DR
    Buffing MAX AV weapon's effectiveness against infantry would not make them overpowered or make their AI obsolete. It would just make them more fun to use.
    • Up x 3
  9. Spookydodger

    I believe it isn't that Comets converge. I think ALL MAX weapons suffer from that.

    I think Comets hit more easily because their projectiles are bigger. Happenstance that doesn't really address the issue, certainly.

    At the very least they should allow us a way to configure our aiming distance like the way that WW2 fighter aircraft used to have their guns set for different convergence distances, if they aren't going to put in true convergence for whatever reason (perhaps aimbot hacks?)
  10. Ronin Oni

    Fractures > Ravens > Comet > Falcon > Pounder > Vortex


    TR/NC AV costs more, but works better.
  11. Ronin Oni

    ^This

    Though cheap players would 2x Pounders for sure if they had less drop. It really is ridiculous amounts. Can almost mortar with it lol