Ok so I can understand both sides of this particular battle. On one hand, LA are extremely limited by their range and therefore are limited on play styles. On the other hand, giving LA a fully decked out suite of weapons that were specifically designed for a class (much like carbines and LMGs) would be pretty over powered. Optional explanation, skip if you want. Since the details of that last sentence are a bit hazy, let me explain. Carbines, ARs, and LMGs were built for use by a single class as a primary weapon. These weapon categories are there fore created with a number of flavors in mind. In other words, ARs feature a full range of choices from CQC to long range options. Giving LA 2 fully decked out weapon classes opens them up to options they probably should not have, any more then a 2 year old should have a gallon of gasoline and a zippo. So instead of debating whether or not LA should have access to "assault" rifles because of a name and little more. We should be uniting and pushing for a much easier change that revamps carbines as a weapon class. What I propose is pretty simple. The long range carbines (Razor, T5 AMC, and Pulsar C, as well as the burst variants) have their minimum damage drop reduced from 2 damage tiers to 1. Razor and Pulsar C would have a minimum damage of 143@75m much like the long range ARs. The T5 AMC would have a minimum damage of 125@65m. This gives these carbines the AR level of damage at range. To compensate, increase their hip fire CoF to 2/2.5/5/7 stand/move/sprint/jump. Adjustments would have to be made to RoF and more tweaks to accuracy might be needed to rebalance the weapons. The Razor and T5 AMC would also need further adjusting (possibly a 2.5 CoF for both, and a magazine nerf to 30 or 35 rounds for the T5) to prevent these weapons from being overly versatile. The Pulsar C is designed to function as both medium and long range carbine for the VS, so it probably shouldn't be beaten as badly for it's buff. With that done, the rest of the carbines still need something to differentiate them from their long range counter parts. Here is where I suggest that many of the carbines be given a .75x movement multiplier. The carbines I'd pick for this would be the dedicated medium ranged ones (Jaguar, AC-X11, Solstice, Trac-5, and Mercenary) as well as the short range/CQC carbines (Lynx, GD-7F, Serpent, and VX6-7). This gives each empire a total of 3 .75x movement carbines. The Lynx and Jaguar will probably need a minor balance pass to mitigate the lost advantage they held for it.
You have to remember this also gives engineers access to extremely powerful medium to long range weapons which could cause issues, I don't necessarily think the .75 ads move speed is required on 3 carbines per faction, instead just give the ADS move speed to the CQB carbines, cause I don't think that a TRAC-5 should be able to peek like an armistice. all the default carbines are perfect as is. Also I don't really agree with the hipfire COF loss, as if you're using a long/med range carbine in CQB you most likely will die instantly. I agree with the T5 AMC nerf to 35 rounds, but it would need to be rebalanced after that to not become the new NS-11c. But is your really wanted that too i'd suggest nerfing the razor to 25/150 ammo cap and increasing ROF to be on par with the merc. The pulsar C should get a model change and reduce hipfire accuracy very slightly so it' barely noticable, but increase reload speed. Also the lynx and jag aren't going to have their ads move speed reduced/removed, too much outcry from the TR community.
I like the idea of it. I get where you going with it. Make the "long range" carbines more AR like. Adjusting the damage dropoff would be a must, but also a velocity buff as well. I do believe all carbines should have the .75 ADS movement speed, considering the carbines are supposed to be for more "mobile" troops. Why LMG's and AR's have these as well is odd to me. It would make carbines more attractive. The cries and whines of the HA and Medic would be loud if they took the .75 ADS off their weapons, so I know that wont happen. But what if carbines where open to Medic and HA as well? What if AR's where open to HA's, Engi's, and LA's? Would they be as attractive to use over LMG's and AR's...even if only in some situations? I see HA's and Medics using SMG's and Shotguns quite a bit. I can see where they would choose a carbine over them. I guess I just wish more weapons were available to more classes. It just makes sense to me. SoE would make money off more people buying different weapons, and people would not have to be "stuck" into low flavors of weapon choices. Of course, if that never happens, I wouldn't mind for those carbines to be redone.
i don't agree with your idea word for word, but the concept i definately like and hope SoE gives it a ganer, thumbs up and bump to help
Carbines are designed for indoor/close confines so unless they were specifically made to hit longer ranges, they should represent that. SMGs were designed for the same purposes but are inherently weaker (since they fire pistol rounds rather then assault rifle or rifle rounds). The move speed on the defaults is meant to balance them and bring them in line with the rest of the carbines. The burst variants would benefit from the same buff to minimum damage as the long range carbines, the S variants have their attachments which makes them heavier in general, and the other 2 types of carbine (short/medium) gain the .75x modifier. I don't think that .75x modifier is something that should be restricted to the short range carbines. It's a useless feature on a weapon you would generally hip fire with. The mediums would benefit the most from this change, and since the defaults are balanced more for medium range then anything else, they should benefit from the same enhancements. As they are, the long range carbines are just glorified mediums. Their hip fire CoF matches the rest of the carbines down the line and without that nerf they would be better then ARs. The nerf helps bring them in line with the ARs, curbs their effectiveness in medium/short range combat, and makes more sense since they are weapons designed for longer ranges, they would be a bit more unwieldy. The T5 nerf is meant for the same reason as the CoF nerf. DPM is a lot more important in short range combat, and leaving this weapon at 40 rounds would make it too easy to just slip into a short/medium range combat while still retaining a natural ability to reach out and hurt someone. It's still superior to the NS-11C (hell the repeater is superior to that POS) in bullet velocity which is a defining factor for long range carbines. The Razor doesn't need any such nerf as long as it and the Pulsar C get that CoF nerf, which relies on a smaller magazine size to actually make that inaccuracy count.
I'm personally fine with longer ranged oriented Carbines being slightly gimped versions of their AR counterparts. If you want a truly good long range weapon then pick Heavy or Medic. What I'm not happy about though, is the fact that close range Carbines are no better than close range ARs in their role, even though the AR weapon class is generally for longer ranges and Carbines for short range. Not only that but the close ARs are barely penalized for specializing in close range unlike Carbines (Lynx's severe horizontal deviation, 3 tier damage dropoff and awful muzzle velocity) while the AR version (TAR for example) still has the benefits of being an AR which is its high muzzle velocity, lower recoil and less damage dropoff. All I want to do is give the carbine weapon class a couple buffs that would benefit them at close range, regardless of whether the Carbine is geared for close or long range, just like how the AR weapon class generally have high muzzle velocity, low recoil and low damage dropoff for simply being being identified as an assault rifle. Suggested buffs would be to give all Carbines a .75 ADS movement multi (srsly how can an Orion have that and not a Merc/Trac-5 etc -_- it's like twice the size lol) and increase the MAX damage range from 10m to 15m with soft point ammo drawing that out even further to 20m. That potential 20m max damage range could be OP but idk, it would need to be tested I guess. These buffs along with the Carbine class' generally superior reload speed would bring the weapon class up with the others.
or we could always allow the LA to equip something other than the jet-pack and allow ARs while that is equipped. maybe a "assault shield" that allows you to equip assault rifles and replaces the JP with a smaller, weaker version of the NC MAX shield?
I don't see the removal of the jet pack in favor of a riot shield would benefit this class. Essentially the LA is the same as an engineer in weapons (sans the Battle Rifle). The saving grace is the mobility offered by the jet packs. The riot shield might've been a better choice for the HA to use instead of the overshield. Huge absorption but cannot fire kind of thing but that's a different topic. Wolfwood is on the right track for the long range carbines. Hip fire accuracy needs lowered, projectile velocity needs to be upped, and damage reduction shouldn't be as severe. The firing rate could be tweaked to bit a slower but also tweak the gun to have less overall bloom.
We could, but that doesn't solve the real problem with giving LA ARs to begin with. The class would have access to two fully versed weapon categories. No other class has that kind of advantage. Since each category has it's own specialties and weaknesses that gives LA a huge advantage. Never mind whether they can get on rooftops or not. It's versatility and selection we just don't need. Right now TR LA has access to 13 weapons for it's primary weapon slot (6 carbines, 5 shotguns, 2 SMGs). Handing LA ARs would increase that to 19. It makes no sense for us to have that huge a selection when a small tweak to 6 weapons would give each faction 2 choices for long range combat that can actually compete at long range combat. Which really is all we need/asked for. Options to be competitive at range.
I definately agree with you here. Another option is giving the LA access to the battle rifles. We share virtually all the same primary weapons with the engineer but this one. However, the LA might break forumside's opinion of how "weak" and nearly "worthless" battle rifles are.
I don't get why engineers get battle rifles over LAs. Give LAs battle rifles and take them away from Engineers would be appropriate...?
That is true. LA are meant to be primarily a combat class while Engies are support. You'd think the more combat oriented class would get the BR whilst the support only get the carbine. Engies deal damage with turrets. Their combat efficiency without it shouldn't be as versatile or better than a LA
I rather like wolfwood's idea. BRs are just things that try to be what a sabr-13 succeeds in being (awesome) Pronouncing the differences between carbine types a little more is entirely a good idea, although maybe not in the way he is choosing to go about it. we may not get along, but wolfwood is more intelligent than some people (and Canadians) give him credit for, consider the concept of his idea more carefully, rather than just nit-picking through his post and saying "eww I don't like your changes to the razor so I disagree with everything."
Oh yes I want it nerfed by raising it's minimum damage and making it a worth while long range carbine. Yeah totally a nerf... Putting it on par with ARs and giving it a role other then glorified slightly-longer-then-medium-range carbine. Absolute nerf, would make the thing useless! Never mind that the same "nerf" would be applied to both the Pulsar C and T5 AMC. Never mind that I actually suggested more nerfs to the T5 AMC then the Razor (reduction of magazine size). Never mind that the Pulsar C would actually benefit the most from this whole thing. Never mind that the rest of the post is all about buffing other carbines as well so that their roles are better defined apart from ARs and other weapons. Yeah it's all because I want the effing Razer nerfed. You caught me Ghoest. I'm only glad you aren't the super secret agent the US government has assigned to put a stop to my dastardly plot to rule the world. Using bobble head dolls.... No seriously, if you thought about the effect this would have on the general LA opinion of long range combat, you'd realize that perceived medium range would increase as well. The side effect of this being the ACX's obvious plight of being corn holed into a set 20m field of range would probably get adjusted to be more in line with the default carbines. Which could now be done because the "long range" carbines would retain their superiority over range. In other words it would probably get a buff to increase it's field of effective usefulness, probably an extension on when it meets it's minimum damage so the damage slope is reduced so it does more damage further.
Yes, let's give a class with a jetpack that is capable of reaching places any other class cannot a mini sniper rifle. What could possibly go wrong?
