Close Quarter Snipers out of control

When fighting against VS today, they had such a high infil op, that their own people started complaining over yell chat why noone was playing medic. About 65& of enemies there were cloakers, for some absurd reason. Only a few CQC snipers (they cane in all flavours: long-range snipers, CQC ones, SMG cloakers and stalkers), but the fact on its own was just hilarious.

My wall may be brittle, but your intelligence is non-existent. For some bizarre reason, you argue something, then get it dismantaled point by point and reverse to say "he doesn't know how to read, he's using strawman arguments".

It's getting a little old, you seriously bring nothing to the conversation, continuously circling back to: "I'm right because I didn't argue that, you're wrong because you can't read and aren't arguing against what I said". STATE CLEARLY WHAT YOU"RE SAYING, YOU BEAN!!!



No buddy, english is not my first language, and I'm wondering if it's yours either. I know you Americans are uneducated, but just because every alien that wants to invade the Earth in movies speaks English doesn't mean it's a universal language, much less everyone's first one (or second, or third for that matter).



Thread about CQC sniping: I calculate numbers in the maximum damage range. Bizarre thing, I though CQC meant CLOSE QUARTERS COMBAT, but maybe you can once again brilliantly enlighten me in that regard. Also, considering the 1hk range for the 700 damage model bolt actions commonly used in CQC is 200 meters, I'm pretty sure I covered the majority of CQC scenarios (as I mentioned before though, I'm simply using arithmetic, since I have no clue how algebra, basic or not would be of use in doing these simple addition/subtraction operations, but hey, I'm just a silly engineer). Please, show me how you do it.




I'd say just pick up the heavy, give it a try, it'll speak for itself. But would you really give up your ability to troll without being in a fight? Nah, that cloak is just too good in my opinion. Use a heavy like you describe, I'd love to see some recordings of you getting wrecked.

It's very interesting that they teach you words like "strawman" in first grade, but I'd like them to expand your vocabulary a little bit, and also maybe clearly define the different branches of math, since you seem a bit confused.




On a final note, you still haven't mentioned anything useful to the thread, however, you have succeeded in trolling me, if that makes you giggle

...
Our entire interaction has been you treating a (true) statement I made as if it was the crux and totality of my entire position. This is literally the definition of straw-manning, and the reason we have yet to move on to any deeper argument about class balance is because you continue to do it.

If you want to progress this discussion then by all means, let's move past this. But I promise you if you continue to fight on this hill we will do this dance until you either die on it or quit the field.

Kudos for the bilingualism, but I won't apologize for expecting basic reading comprehension from a person typing in English on an English-speaking forum. I would expect no less from myself were I to go on any foreign language forum.

As for your other statement, we're going to nip that right in the bud. This is a gaming forum, whatever personal prejudices you've got have no place here. Either check that crap at the door or buzz off. End of.

Gladly. Max damage range for the rifles in question is 10 meters. I don't think you fully appreciate how short this is, or how infrequently combat actually takes place at these ranges. Most commonly you see CQC sniping taking place at 20-50m.
At these ranges not only can the Heavy Assault shield quite frequently can tank a headshot (depending on the distance, type of shield, and how long it's been up), but assuming competent players you will almost never get a second try since you are well within their kill zone.

Very well.

/CONSIDER THIS A CLEAR BREAK IN THE POST/
I guess since apparently this needs to be said: just because what I am about to say is true, this does not mean it constitutes the sum total or even a significant part the reasons why I think the Infiltrator Class is fine. The following exists merely to disprove the misconception that the HA's shield is useless against them.
/END BREAK/

You know the Range & Damage numbers for both the high and low ends for a given gun, for example, the CQC weapons have a 700-400 damage model at 10 meters and 265 meters respectively. This is enough information to construct a line on a graph where the Y-Axis is the amount of damage dealt and the X-Axis is the distance at which that damage applies. You know what this looks like, as it is what is displayed in-game when you look at a weapon's stats.

What this allows you to do is to calculate the (near enough) exact damage dealt at a given distance, or vice versa, using the equation of the line: y=mx+b; where Y is damage, X is distance, b is the intersect and m is the slope of the line (rise/run).

Again, using the CQC rifles as an example:
m = (700-400)/(265-10) = 1.176
b = 700 (this one is tricky, since the line is flat for the first 10m, but for our purposes we'll treat the 10m mark as zero and account for it later)
So for a distance of 50m, your equation is y=(1.176)(50-10*)+700.
*Since we're treating 10m as our '0', we subtract 10 from our overall distance.
This gives you a damage, or y-value of ~653 give or take a point. You can use this equation combined with shield strength numbers and headshot multipliers to find the exact range at which you can no longer headshot a heavy.

The CQC rifles, for example have a maximum 1HK range of 36 meters against a fully-shielded heavy assault using NMG or Adrenaline Shield (670*2.1=1407). If the heavy is running Aux Shield that drops to 15 meters (694*2.1=1457). A full-health Resist Shield heavy cannot be one-shot by a CQC sniper at any distance (1000/.65=1538; 700*2.1=1470), and at full health, a heavy running both RS and AS cannot be one-shot by any rifle in the game (1588 > 750*2.1=1575).

So when I say that the heavy assault shield absolutely protects against headshots or that it isn't uncommon for me to score non-lethal headshots with a bolt action I am not talking about niche, 1%, golden bullet scenarios. Savvy?

If you are so inclined I'll even put it all into an Excel WB and throw it on GDrive and you can poke at it.

My accounts are no secret, so feel free to test that theory. My NC-alt has been entirely Medic+HA, and a lot of my recent play on my primary has been too. There are too many good players returning to get away with effective bolting all the time anymore.

I wasn't aware that the Argumentative Fallacies were a subject taught in the First Grade. Perhaps the one who is a bit confused here is actually you.

Pretty widely known that inf with a bolt is egregiously overpowered but balanced with any other weapon.

Buddy, you basically just proved yourself wrong.


Asides from the fact that people get sniped before they can even turn on their shield, as I mentioned before, this is a thread about CQC sniping. I'm pretty sure the snipers stay well in that 36m range, and I can assure you that no one uses resist shield or aux shield as a heavy.



So as I mentioned, heavies don't walk around max health with their over-shields constantly on, they usually just turn them on to help win a 1v1 engagement. Since no one spots the sniper camping a corner until they get instagibbed, there's not much a shield can do in that scenario. As frequent as you make this sound, due to the nature of the game, the extremely fast tkk of these sniper rifles means the guy is dead before he sees what hit him, with no time to activate his over-shield to defend himself. You also even proved that if he did, this wouldn't help him anyways against a cqc sniper. Also note snipers have access to 750 damage tier weapons, which would effectively increase the 1hk range, if that was ever a problem.


Bottom line, the shield will only be usefully in less than 1% of scenarios, where the heavy accidentally turns on his over shield while out of the 1hk range just before the shot is fired (if he turned it on after that, it would already be too late, it would not be processed by the server in time to save him from a headshot.


Also, once again, you say you aren't arguing anything, so why are you wasting everyone's time offering irrelevant information? You say you just want to correct the HA point, but for what purpose? You aren't arguing anything, and the information you provide from yourself seems to indicate you're contributing nothing to the thread. Maybe you should go create a long quarters combat sniping thread? Although I'm not sure for what purpose, since your not arguing anything, just stating pointless "facts". AKA simply wasting everyone's time going on tangents that aren't even related to the topic of the post.

Here's a simple equation to illustrate the problem with Infiltrator as a class.

Infiltrator: Specializes in getting the first shot
Bolt actions: Specializes in killing with one shot

Infiltrator + Bolt = Specialize in getting the first shot, which kills instantly.

The Infiltrator's actually a really cool and interesting class with reasonable counterplay, it's the bolt actions that ruin everything. They have significant utility to offer a team, which stealth classes in games often lack, and they actually suck in direct combat with less beefiness and weaker DPS using SMGs or semi-auto rifles. When they play properly, they ambush you down using their camouflage and motion sensors, and when they don't, they're punished with a rather lackluster arsenal.

Bolters are uniquely problematic because even if they don't leverage stealth and motion sensors properly, you discover them, and they just headshot you anyways. In close quarters. As a class specializing in long quarters. In direct combat. As a class ostensibly weak in direct combat. While still being the best pick class and offering utility to the team.

In short, bolt actions circumvent ALL of the theoretical and practical weaknesses of the class, and Implants make it even worse. One hallmark of an overpowered strategy is if the only thing that beats X is to play X yourself, and the best counterplay to a CQC bolter is a CQC bolter with better aim.

Seriously. Infiltrators shouldn't have the ability to cloak while using a sniper rifle.


Not sure why this was changed, infiltrators worked fine in Planetside 1. Everyone could use sniper rifles and infiltrators could only equip pistols and knives with their cloak.

Instead of removing the weapon itself, how about fixing the issues with it. Namely the cheat called "quick scoping".

For those not in the "know", quick scoping consists of abusing the fact that right after you hit the key to switch to the scope but before all the downsides (reduced movement speed, limited vision, etc) kick in there is a window when you get the massively reduced cone of fire. Combine with other cheats like Recurions middle-of-the-screen dot and macros that do all the button timing for you and the net result is can have all the benefits of the scopes accuracy without the downsides.
Now for real fun - ever notice that the bulk of CQC "snipers" are VS? Thats because there is no drop on thier CQC bolters. So now you have a pin-point accurate one-hit kill weapon useable from point-blank to 50m that doesn't need the scope's zoom to account for bullet drop without any reduction in movement speed. Oh and its on a class that is assured of getting the first shot in.
Can someone say built to be abused?

So the first fix is obviously to get rid of quick scoping both mechanically and by putting it on the same footing as stat-padding via ammo boxes. Then make the VS CQC bolt snipers the same as their regular bolt snipers who have bullet drop. Bet that would fix 3/4 of the issues with CQC bolters right there - no more getting killed by a strafing crouch-macroing chimp in one hit from 50m away.

Bolts just shouldn't belong to a class that specializes at getting the first shot onto someone. Infiltrator using SMGs, pistols and even battle rifles/semi auto snipers are fine because in direct combat against anything except an Engineer they'll be disadvantaged. Really this is a compromise, because even without cloak, corner peeking instant kills are bad enough. Even if I headshot you first, I still die anyways even though I played better, on which freaking planet is that remotely fair?

In an ideal world, Infiltrator would be split into two classes: Infiltrator which is completely identical except without sniper rifles, and Marksman with sniper rifles and a new, dramatically worse power.

Going to prove this are you? That will be a neat trick.

"Let me argue against hard numbers by assuming every sniper is fully cognizant of his distance to every enemy at all times. Also he never misses. And is always cloaked. Also the items that provide the clearest examples of a counterpoint to my position are irrelevant because I assure you no one uses them because I said so*."
-TRspy, probably

*Even if you could somehow prove that no one uses the RS that only indicates that snipers aren't the problem you say they are. RS basically gives you a hard counter to CQC snipers. It doesn't drain over time, lasts for 15 seconds and can survive a headshot from almost any sniper in the game. After which you have enough time to kill the offending sniper twice over before he can rechamber a round.

Logically, if CQC snipers were a problem there would be plenty of examples of people using RS, but you say no one uses it, so...
That really puts you in a pickle, doesn't it?

Turnabout is fair play.
Snipers don't wait around every corner with their cloaks constantly on. If a cloaked sniper runs around a corner into a heavy assault who shoots him in the face before he can decloak and fire his weapon, there's not much he can do in that scenario either.

And you continue to argue against numbers with feelings and suppositions, because at the end of the day they are all you have when your mind is made up before we've even begun.

So snipers engaging shielded Heavies outside of a ~40m band is a 1% scenario, but somehow using either a faction-locked weapon with a built-in 200ms firing delay, or weapons only unlocked after 4000+ kills is a legitimate counter to you?

Do you even realize the contorted mental gymnastics you are having to perform to reconcile your warped position with reality?

No, I said that I wasn't arguing that the ability of the HA's shield to block headshots was of consequence to the overall balance of the class you kumquat.
I have clearly and repeatedly stated a willingness to move past this particular point onto more relevant discussion on class balance, yet you cling to this battle like a drowning man to a rock.

I haven't read this full debate but let's call a spade a spade; assuming equal skill, the gun that kills instantly will win. Every single class has to aim for domeshots, and every single class will lose fights if they bodyshot and their opponent headshots.

No kidding. Got kicked from the server for supplying a single MAX that was shooting with Dual Falcon at a PMB.
High reload speed + tiny mag > high rate of resupply > lots of XP > kick.

Got in a support ticket about that and they said they'll try to tweak some parameters in the kickbot, but who knows. Cuz getting kicked for playing as intended shouldn't be a thing. But it shows in terms of that they are rather strict.

Idk, every time I've tried sniping in anything like close quarters and was dumb enough to get shot first, my crosshair has jumped and bounced around too much to get a headshot.

One thing that I think people also frequently forget in this sort of debate is that Planetside is not a 1v1 game. If I'm an infiltrator with a bolt action at less than 36m and I do manage to headshot that heavy, he's usually going to have a buddy. His buddy then kills the infiltrator while the infiltrator is rechambering. Any time an infiltrator is in a position where someone can effectively shoot back at him he's pretty much automatically ******.

Something I've already pointed out; at least 60% of bases are terrible places to try to use sniper rifles unless you really really buy into this cqc nonsense. You go ahead and try to Aurax 5 sniper rifles, it becomes quickly apparent that most of the game is just really not built for sniping. Almost everything important (control points etc) is indoors, many bases have massive walls and/or zero high ground in or out of the base. All terrain in the game that seems like it should be a good place for snipers to participate in a fight has Magriders on it instead.
Everyone with that same opinion, who thinks that infiltrator can be differentiated into a long-range only class, I do not hold it against you, but I do not think you quite know what you're talking about. Go Aurax even one sniper rifle with a 7x+ scope and come back.


Frankly, full disclosure, I would love it if the game were changed to bring back plenty of sniper battles, but imo the "combined arms" aspect of the game kind of ruins that. All bases are built to somewhat mitigate defenders being sniped by tanks, and everywhere else in the game is littered with tanks. Reduce nanite generation down to 5-20% of current levels and maybe there will be a place for a marksman class or somesuch, but currently I dont think that place exists.

I know well and good how niche it would become, that's a feature not a bug of the proposal. Pardon me if I don't want to be instantly killed out of stealth from an enemy with motion tracking at literally every range.

Infiltrator as a class is not fundamentally flawed, but bolt actions as they currently exist most certainly are.

Forget the Close Quarter Bolter that only veeeerrrry few people can even do effectively... Can we get rid of the Close Quarter 1-shot kill shotguns? It is really cramping my style. My KDR and KPM are going down with the Instaglib hipfire shotgun. They should only be allowed to be used for beyond 25 Meters. Anything shot closer than that and the player should be banned. Need to slow the reloads to. I say they should get nerfed.... like yesterday. I am going to put in a formal complaint to Daybreak Games and suggest the nerf. They should only shoot 1 pellet per round. That's it. My complaints have weight. Waaaahhhhh.

In no particular order:

1. Shotguns cannot be equipped by the Infiltrator and thus cannot kill you instantly out of stealth.
2. Shotguns are horrendous outside of an extremely limited range
3. Shotguns cannot be equipped by a class that can track your movement.
4. Shotguns' range preclude you from killing people from a distance utterly outside of their retaliation

OMG!!!! Can't you tell sarcasm?!?! Geeeez!

I wasn't talking about shotguns for infiltrators anyway... I was talking about shotgun in general... Wow... just... OMG

The point was that shotguns can't be equipped by a class that can easily secure the first shot in an engagement. If a class other than Infiltrator had bolt actions instead, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

https://voidwell.com/ps2/oracle?sta...,1894&startDate=2020-02-24&endDate=2020-03-24

Goes both ways. 'Lemme argue that a CQC sniper is sniping outside of CQC range, is not using his cloak and positioning effectively and is solely going up against heavies who just happen to be MAX health with their shield just activated (or are they all running resist shield with aux shield)?Trust me, I'm not arguing anything here but snipers are almost never used as 1hk!"


Wow, your intelligence really shines through your mongoloidic replies, and calling people citruses really adds to your credibility (but let's not call you a disabled ignorant idiot, because that might hurt your feelings again). Really, each time you elaborate you just dig yourself further into the pit of nonsense you created.


BUDDY, CQC snipers are a problem, that's why people are in this thread, that's why there's videos of people wrecking everyone by CQC sniping, and that's why almost every fight now is full of snipers! That's also why snipers were never allowed to be this powerful in Planetside 1, a title that actually worked well for quite a bit (I WONDER WHY). Instead of spending your time using cliche phrases or googling new words to make up for your complete lack of substantial reasoning, OPEN YOUR EYES!!!!! Just because you close your eyes and remain oblivious to reality doesn't mean you can impose your fantasies on others.


Really dude,what is wrong with you. Not to mention every post you change your mind "I'm not arguing anything, BUT YOU"RE WRONG, SNIPERS ARE NEVER A 1HK YOU ORANGE!". You literally proved in your last post that snipers are effective against any real target in CQC, just to tell me in this post that CQC snipers are not effective because when they snipe outside of CQC, a shielded heavy who just turned on his shield to block the shot might survive.


I'm glad all of this makes sense to you, you have unlocked the IQ of a baby chipmunk! However, goofing around doesn't mean you actually made a valid argument, or a concise fact of actual value to the discussion. At this point, you are either just trolling, or you are so stupidly ignorant that you can't even read your own posts and realize you've contradicted and changed your claims as many times as Nicki Minaj changed her hairstyle. I understand you're not the brightest thing out there, and I've met a few people as determined to pass off as complete degenerate beans as much as you.


Really, this conversation is getting nowhere, and if you know how to read, simply look at your "facts", other people's posts in the forum, and hopefully this might cause a flicker of intelligence that could travel up your nervous system and illuminate the empty cavity that was supposed to house your brain. I think I'm finished trying to enlighten you, if all you're going to say to defend yourself is:

a) "Strawman"
b) "I'm not arguing anything, idiot"
c) "I'm here to argue snipers are never 1hk kills, especially against shielded heavies"

I can only remain stupefied, at this point it's simply me constantly restating facts, wondering if you've ever played the game or are being honest (the devs never read the forums, I promise admitting snipers are a problem won't get them nerfed the next day), while you constantly switch up your claims and try to save face by calling me your word of the day. Here's a new one for you: find enlightenment, you piece of Buddha's hand! One that note, have a great day kid, hopefully you'll unlock critical thinking before you enter high school (don't do drugs, you already seem damaged enough).