Cloaking takes away the fun

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by McMansikka, Oct 19, 2021.

  1. csvfr

    Last time I was sniping a sunderer, I had maybe 4-5 kills before there where multiple countersnipers and at least one HA w/ battle rifle. Essentially it turned into a game of Whac-A-Mole where it was only possible to take one shot at a time and I was lucky not to suffer a bodyshot when retreating. The repeating gameplay loop of sniping can be put as:
    1. Be in safe position
    2. Activate cloak
    3. Move to exposed position
    4. Hold breath, aim, then fire (decloak on fire)
    5. Recloak and withdraw to safe position simultaneously
    After doing this a couple of times the cloak energy will be drained and a short break is needed to recharge. Otherwise there is a risk of decloaking unintentionally in between steps 3 and 4 and becoming an easy target. This is why a slower recharge time would make snipers less effective, as in combat effectivness and kills per minute, not less capable of performing only a single kill. It would shift the risk/reward ratio and hence nerf snipers without removing them from the game entirely. But with a 2-sec delay from decloaking until firing, countersniping would break the sniping game.
  2. Somentine

    Not only do I also snipe, but I do it better than most people in the game (and i'm not even that good at it), let alone on the forums. The difference is that I see it for how broken it actually is, and Hill-top sniping is one of the lowest risk, least impactful gameplay in the game. Even HESH tanks do more and risk more, and that's incredibly sad.

    You want to be a twit and sit 200m+ from a fight, in a super tacticool spot? Be my guest. Do it while having the longest infantry weapon in the game, the only weapon capable of one shotting at that range, while being able to be invisible? Yeah, no. Pick one or the other.

    Perfectly fine with cloak allowing an Infil to get to their spot, not with them being able to cloak and de-cloak at-will, and constantly.

    Also, FKN LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL at being called a scrub for not playing the game like a total *****.
    • Up x 1
  3. Demigan

    This is a perfect example of how OP this is. You "only" got 4 to 5 kills even though the amount of players trying to kill you kept rising with multiple countersnipers and a HA? Oh wait, you werent even dead yet and survived longer afterwards. Any other class in the same position would have to deal with the same problem only without the safety of cloak to line up your shot first and the safety to move off.

    Also how much time do you spend cloaked per shot? Unless there are no targets around I spend more time moving behind cover to shake off enemies pre-aiming at my previous position than I do cloaked. You could triple my cloak recharge and it wouldnt matter.

    Now you can easily argue "ah but that is your personal playstyle, most players dont fight like that". And that is correct, most players ultra-heavily crutch on the cloak. Increasing the recharge time just increases the time between shots, but does not take away the power of shooting from cloak or the pure piss gameplay loop it is for the opponent to be OHK'd by something they could not reasonably react against. Unless ofcourse you assume the short-ranged micro-AOE Darklight is somehow designed to locate a long-range sniper before the player knows he's about to be OHK's...?

    Adding a 2-second decloak time would not remove them from the game. It would at worst teach players how to utilize actual stealth tactics and we would only lose those who crutch so much on it that they cannot adapt, which is fine since they were actively making the game worse for more players than the amount of players that do like it.
  4. JibbaJabba

    No. This isn't purely subjective. There is an objective truth here.

    If your own skill does not impact the outcome of the engagement it will not be fun. It's part of the foundation of the operant conditioning in video games. You can prove this with a rat and a skinner box.

    I think the chief complaint would be more like "but infiltrator decloaked right on my screen and killed me before I could react".

    Your reaction time has nothing to do with the outcome. You are merely seeing what has already occurred on the network. The engagement is over when the decloak appears. The implementation of the cloak is broken.

    And this is objectively not fun for one of the participants. It does not matter to what great lengths or skill the infiltrator went to gain an advantage. Ultimately they crutched on the broken game mechanic (cloak) so that they could elude having to face the corresponding skill from their opponent.
    • Up x 1
  5. csvfr

    The first victim did not know about the threat. Due to firing from an unexpected angle and position outside their field of vision, even without cloak the first victim would still be OHK'ed. The only reason the enemies learned about the sniper nest is due to the kill-cam and tracers. Hence a 2-sec cloaking delay changes nothing, it only makes it easier to deal with snipers in a minimal effort way after-the-fact of the first kill.
  6. Demigan

    With a 2-second decloak time you have to attack from a low visibility position and can no longer attack straight on with a minimal effort way. It also removes the minimal effort way of hiding after the fact, meaning you can no longer beat multiple countersnipers and a HA unless you are actually good rather than crutching in the aforementioned minimal effort way.
    The added advantage is that it does not just hit snipers with a simple but effective and justified nerf, it also hits the cheap and easy SMG Infils.

    Also your solution is just as minimal effort as mine, less even since it doesnt have a big enough impact. 25% more recharge time? Thats nothing, just the reload of most snipers would put you close to max again.

    Also since you brought it up: we need more non-infiltrator tools to detect infiltrators in advance of revealing themselves, so that first player you are aiming for can actually react.
  7. csvfr

    It is true that getting to a good sniping position in the first place requires some effort and knowledge of the game. Whether it be by flash driving, valkyrie, or plain walking, the sniper has invested time in reconnaissance and transportation. This effort is unmatched until the victims get to that same position, maybe using an LA with a flashlight. Then deal with the sniper in the proper correct way in a 1-on-1 where the sniper starts with a disadvantage not having a close range primary weapon and less health.
    Note that by "minimal effort" I meant the opinion that countersnipers, who most of the time could ignore the sniper, should be able to engage the sniper on equal terms disregarding the positional advantage the sniper has. This is the same kind of lazy mentality that destroys the game; wanting a good fight but can't be bothered to bring a sunderer, hating the spawn shelling HESH tank but don't want to C4 it, disliking zergs but can't read the map and redeploy etc.

    25% more recharge time could in some situations imply having to take a longer break after every shot instead of getting two off. An alternative would be 25% less capacity, that would have a similar effect but also demand that the sniper gets the shot off faster. This type of nerf would particularly impact the crutchers, including CQC bolters exploiting the peaker's advantage who IMO are the real cancerous type as they can't be ignored like the long-range sniper can. These snipers are frequently right next to hostiles and would be killed faster and more often if not having enough cloak to do that.
  8. Scroffel5

    I think a higher delay would be nice, but you can't leave it at that. First off, 1 bullet doesn't make much of a difference, so only give the Infiltrator 250 shield to balance it out even better for those naysayers. Then, make snipers harder to use. That way, when we get better at them again, there's nothing these people can say against them, because many of the players now using them aren't good.

    For CQC BASRs, constant scope sway and poor handling if you have been running for 2 seconds. That way, you make it HARDER to hit the first shot, requiring you to be better. For LR BASRs, more scope sway and a shorter hold breath period, along with the same poor handling after you have been running for 2 seconds. Movement should really throw these guys off, but it shouldn't be impossible to hit a shot with them despite your movements.

    Make SMGs harder to use on the Infiltrator class only, too. How? I don't know, but SMGs feel too powerful with a cloak to me. I like the idea of the Infiltrator being a headhunter class, more of "headshots or die" since you have the cloak and are supposed to be ambushing people. Plus they shouldn't have all that many bullets either. I like where the Tomoe is at.

    I think these changes to the weapons will calm many people's complaints with dying to the threat that they couldn't see. True, if they don't play Infiltrator, changes to how hard the weapons are won't stop you from being annoyed that you die to one, but thats true for anything you repeatedly die to, even if it takes "skill" to use it.
  9. MonnyMoony


    That's just a variation of the 'git gud' argument.

    I could say the same about cloakers. I don't have an issue with cloakers because I know what to look (and listen) for.

    If you can't deal with them and they are causing you a problem in the game - perhaps you also need 'git gud'. It's a "user issue"
  10. Scroffel5

    Same here, I have no problem with cloakers, even when I am not playing as one. I know they are going to be my biggest threat if I let them get behind enemy lines or they are picking off my allies from range, so I go and find them before they do. And I never die to them before I know they are going to kill me, if that makes sense. When I am going to die to one, I know it. I see them coming, I know I can't take them. Its when it becomes a cat and mouse game because I didnt kill them and they didn't kill me that I have no idea what I am going to do, and thats as it should be. Also, if you get the jump on THEM, they are most likely going to die, so theres balance in the cloak there.
  11. JibbaJabba


    In one instance the player can indeed "get gud". In the other they cannot. Once this bit makes sense the need to fix the cloak becomes more apparent.

    Facing a heavy with a shield? A higher skill player can have a different outcome than a lower skill player.

    Facing a bolter who has just decloaked-on-fire? The higher skill player has the exact same outcome as the lower skilled player: Let the network tell you if you are dead or get to actually fight. /shrug

    Please spare us the bit about knowing what to look and listen for though ok? For the sake of an honest discussion assume your reader already knows this.
  12. Scroffel5

    Yeah remove decloak on fire.
  13. JibbaJabba

    It would have to be a bit longer delay to be impactful I think. A lot of good cloakers don't really rely on that anyway. I've seen suggestions of like 2 seconds or something. I think putting the cloak on a newly added weapon slot would do the trick. That way cloakers switching to a pistol would still be a pretty quick decloak-to-fire, but switching to a bolt would be slower. The "weapon switch time" is a quanta of time that most players are accustomed to dealing with. I think cloakers would adapt readily.
  14. Somentine


    If I wasn't already better than most people, sure, you could maybe argue that it is a skill issue on my end. Unfortunately for that argument, I am better than most, as both Infil and other infantry, and can actually prove what i'm saying through gameplay, stats, and footage if really needed.

    More directly, there is a vast difference from not being able to deal with someone who has already killed you on their screen before they even rendered on yours, and someone who gets the jump on a HA and still dies even after having both the advantage of aiming and shooting first AND the clientside effect of having probably around 300-500+ ms of time before their client even tells them they are being shot at.
    • Up x 2
  15. MonnyMoony

    They can though. They can be more observant, work on their situational awareness, use the kill cam to their advantage. It's completely possible to avoid, hunt or counter stalkers and snipers - I know because I have learnt how to do it.
  16. MonnyMoony


    If you have been killed by a cloaker and didn't see or hear them coming - then the chances are you already screwed up. You either gave them a sitting duck to shoot at, let your situational awareness lapse or didn't take the clues presented to you (like friendlies dying nearby on the mini map, not following tracers to their source or leaving a sniper uncontested because "somebody else will deal with it"). Cloakers depend quite heavily on the enemy lacking situational awareness or being complacent.

    I have seen cloakers run up to a sundy and knife half a dozen or more people uncontested - just because the enemy weren't being observant and were complacent near their spawn.

    You claim to be "better than most", yet the fact you are hear complaining about cloakers suggests that not really an accurate assessment.
  17. Somentine

    Don't be ridiculous, the whole point of Infil is that you don't hear or see them coming; if you do, then they messed up. Further, there are distances where Infils are literally invisible, and it isn't very far.

    Cloakers do not, in any way, rely on people lacking awareness, it is their whole advantage. Every other class makes sound, every other class is entirely visible, every other class can't drop spots.


    The fact that i'm complaining about infils could suggest that, if I couldn't back it all up with gameplay or stats. The fact that you bring up some of the most basic things, and even got some of them wrong, heavily suggests i'm responding to a bad player.
    • Up x 2
  18. JibbaJabba


    Yes, you can **stop playing the game you were playing**, break off and go hunt down any individual you want in this game. Be that cloaker, A2G farmer, Hesh on the hillside, you name it. You can also put yourself at a disadvantage in every infantry situation by running a darklight. You can also do that. Who sat down to play one night and thought any of that sounded like fun? And would pay for it?

    Please stop bringing up this point. It's the "get gud" point all over again. This is not the issue. I've got 7k hours in this game and get hackusated by cloakers. And even I know not to talk smack to Somentine (you should stop, just take his word).

    The issues I am describing are unrelated to the skill of the person being shot. That is in fact the problem. The skill of the cloaker determines the outcome. The person being shot cannot bring their own skill into the equation because they are not told of the shot by the network until the outcome is already over.

    I'm not complaining here about being shot while standing at a vehicle terminal. ok? My battlefield sense will tell me when that is risky and if I fail, I'll work on my battlefield sense. The infiltrator that kills me here did so with positioning and aim. They may have used the cloak during that positioning and that's fine! perfect even! That's what it's for. Even though I never saw him, my own skill did play a part in the outcome. I'll be mad at myself when I die. Not him. Not the game.

    What it's NOT for:
    I break a corner, see two guys so pull back and re-peak more carefully just engaging one of them and then if I did well, the other. And then I die. There was a third guy on the screen, invisible, or not visible enough compared to his buddies. No amount of skill of mine matters. If he hits me it doesn't matter. The other guys I could see may have been better players and overcome my skill. Dying to them is not frustrating. It might have even been exciting. But dying to the guy I can do nothing about? That's a cancelled membership. Sick of it.
    • Up x 2
  19. BlackFox

    I stop playing this game from now on as there are just two classes left: Cloakers and their targets. If it isn't a crappy noob of untouchable hill top sniper it's the guy with the Comissioner and his stealth cloak. There is absolutely no sense in playing as infantry in this game.

    In conclussion I'd propably spend money on a triple A shooter rather than on Planetside or even spend time to serve as content - the Steam winter sales are coming up afterall
    • Up x 2
  20. Somentine

    The problem with using the better player argument, is that even if better always = more knowledgeable and correct, there is always someone better, and someone better than them.

    That being said, there is only so many times you can listen to the same basic 'advice' or rhetoric used by players who are clearly just not as a good. Like, oh really? You can use your ears to hear things in the game? Wow, I didn't know that. What's that? If you see a dildar, you're saying there is a possibility that an Infil is in the area? No way, I never would have thought! What? Just always assume there is an infil at every angle and every corner? Sure, that seems like a very plausible way to play the game; that every time I take an engagement, I should just assume there is 3 bolters scoped on me, an SMG besides the guy I was going to engage, and a stalker waiting behind me. It's moronic that people think this is good gameplay.


    This is what I was getting at above. Not only does infil and their kit fk with a lot of awareness (mini-map tracking for simply moving, why? Why does this exist?), but even in cases where you play 100% perfect, peak, assess the situation, and engage, you can still be screwed out of more than half your HP by some dick-shooting bolter 10m behind the dude, who was invisible and shot you before they even render on your screen.

    Or how these players, like one of the dudes in here, complain that they can't kill a heavy even after getting the jump on them. Like bro, if you can't do it with all those advantages, why do you think playing any other class is going to help? The very fact they were able to even damage that player should probably tip them off that the class is carrying their fat weight.

    Like there are some absolute trash infil players that either kill me or cause me to die, when on any other class they would be literal fodder who end up being a net HP increase with adren + assim. And the people think this is okay, and assume that an even better player can't make the game absolutely cancerous because of Infil's ivi scaling (some even believe infil to be a weak, low impact class) are just ignorant.
    • Up x 3