Cloaking takes away the fun

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by McMansikka, Oct 19, 2021.

  1. BlackFox

    The HA shield, MAXes... the game really would require a whole balance overhaul to be really good again. The difference is that they at least can be somewhat avoided because they are visible enemies and don't appear out of thin air
  2. VhynSeven

    Infiltrator is far from being broken... Yeah it sucks when you get decked from behind by a handgun or a knife, but realistically speaking, how many times does it happen compared to any other death you had?

    The thing is, when one gets ambushed by an Infiltrator, all he sees is there was an invisible guy next to him, but what he doesn't see is all the process that led to this situation. Infiltrator can't just hop around and takes shortcuts around buildings, nor he can forces his way in with extra shields or healing. He has to rely on careful positioning and timing. Plus he doesn't have the means to take more than one guy at a time, his kit doesn't give him a free "get out of troubles" card. Once caught, it's do or die.

    Once i a while I spot an Infiltrator trying to sneak around with his cloak, and it instantly gets me the advantage over him as my weapon is ready to fire, not his. Which result in his death, or at least I send him running to nrver be heard again.
  3. Demigan

    I hate this kind of thinking.

    Imagine the Unreal Tournament Redeemer being available for 750 resources to the HA. Its a mini-nuke that can be steered better than the Phoenix or fired as a dumbfire, when steering you can also manually detonate it. When I say "steered better" I mean "you can navigate through a building, do a 180 and go back through the same building" good steering. And ofcourse it one-hits pretty much everything in its AOE. Lets add the stupid limitation that only squad/platoon leaders can buy it. Its biggest drawback is that the missile is relatively slow and can be shot down, causing a smaller explosion.

    Realistically, how many times would you be killed by it? With the cost and limitations not much. But would it be fun and fair? No it wouldnt.

    Just because there is so much to die from in the game does not make it OK to die to something unfair and unfun. Infiltrators do not offer a good gameplay loop between them and their opposition. You are at a disadvantage if you dont use any tools since they will always have the first shots. If you do use the Flashlight you are nerfing yourself against everyone else and are still at a disadvantage against Infils, besides that realistically it only works against Stalkers. Or you are forced to play the very Infiltrators to be able to track them.

    We need a better gameplay loop between Infils and the rest of the game. Infils need to be more wary of their environment and not simply be able to start every fight with an advantage. The other classes need more tools and detection methods that have uses against other classes as well, besides that the tools have to be useable before the player knows an Infiltrator is around.

    The only other solution is making Infiltrators closer to other classes by making cloak unuseable for the opening of combat. A 2-second decloak would solve most of this, letting Infils get to advantageous positions but not decloak and fire before the latency system shows them doing so.
    • Up x 1
  4. MonnyMoony


    Lots of things fall into this category.

    HA shields for example. I have lost count of how many times I have got the jump on a HA, only for them to pop over shields and ping me in the head - showing little to no damage themselves.

    IMO over-shields should not be able to be turned on whilst the HA is actively taking fire. They should be a tactical tool, activated before performing a breaching manoeuvre - not a twitch reflex activated instant "I win" shield.

    One thing I don't understand though - why was the ability to deactivate an enemy cloak using EMP nades removed? EMP nades used to decloak stalkers, as well as cloaked vehicles. IMO that should be reinstated.
  5. csvfr

    Snipers need a couple of seconds to scan for easy targets, i.e. those who stand still or those who run in a straight line. When taking the shot a sniper must stand still for maximal accuracy which is needed to hit the head. If the cloak was to nerfed with 2-sec delays or so countersniping would be far to easy as the position of a sniper is known after the first couple of shots or kills. As it is now, the cloak is perfectly balanced to allow the sniper to take a shot and survive if immediately retreating behind whatever cover is used.
  6. Somentine

    Yes. But I don't think you get what Demigan is actually saying because:


    First of all, don't trust the death re-cap. Beyond Assimilate/Adren/Regen/any other recovery, the death screen is laggy. I've had people whisper me asking how I had full health and nearly full shields, when I had maybe 150-200 hp and no shields.

    Second, that's a user issue. If you somehow think 430 (450 - 20 activation), non-NWA shield, that also slows them by 25% is even comparable to being able to one shot people from basically, invisibility, then that's on you. Oh, and if you are the one getting the jump, you even have time before your client registers that they activated their shield, which means you can kill them at full energy (despite it being activated on their screen).

    Sounds like you just don't have good aim, tbh.



    If heavy assaults were invisible before they activated their abilities, sure, but they aren't. You can see it is a heavy, and you can tell which shield they are using the second they activate it, and you can see the negatives of them slowing down. It's not even remotely comparable to being killed, by the player that you didn't even know was there before, had rendered on your screen.


    Because it was broken af. The only reason it was okay was because HA shield was broken back then. EMP nades need a huge nerf or change (much like every part of Infil's kit, surprise, surprise).
    • Up x 1
  7. Somentine

    AH HAH HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa hahahaah

    no
  8. VhynSeven

    I'm keeping this one for this :

    The "unfair and unfun" argument really boils down to personal tastes and feelings. You feel like they are unfair and unfun. I feel like they are not. So who is saying the truth?

    All I see here is "but Infiltrator decloaked in my back and killed me before I could react". But at the same time it totally ignores everything the Infiltrator has to do to be behind you at that time. And no, cloaking is NOT a perfect invisibility, especially when moving around.
  9. Somentine

    Nearly everything about balance is an opinion. If the dev's put a gun into the game right now, that auto tracks and 1 shots you, it's only your opinion that it isn't fair or fun. Arguing that point is either invalidating every single change or it's like arguing that water is wet.

    As for infil, you're right, it's amazing that a stalker infil can sit in a corner and press C, go make themselves a cup of tea, come back and shoot me in the back with any number of combos that can kill even a heavy before they can react beyond pressing F.

    Or how about that bolter watching a lane with a weapon that out-ranges every single other weapon, can 1 shot, and can sit in 'plain' sight while being literally invisible at that distance? Really? They worked so hard for that kill? lol.
    • Up x 1
  10. BlackFox

    Yeah, imagine if snipers would actually need to change position after a few shoots... what hassle that must be /s
    • Up x 2
  11. csvfr

    It can take some effort to arrive at good sniping positions. Whether it is a on a tree top on Hossin, a mountainside on Amerish, or a hill on Esamir, repositioning is easiest through redeployment.

    Instead of nerfing snipers to uselessness, might as well remove the class altogether and be transparent about the fact it was done to inflate the ego of a subset of players.
  12. Somentine

    Holy Christ, dude. 1. Don't be a trash hiltop sniper. 2. Even if you are, the fact that you need to crutch on the only long range weapons that can 1 shot AND invisibility is just sad.

    Learn to play, my god.
    • Up x 3
  13. VhynSeven

    Sure, be that thrash corner-camping heavy that crutch on his shield and rocket laucher instead, like the majority of players, or his 100+ ammo LMG to spray-and-pray. Or be that thrash C4 fairy.

    Sarcasm indeed.
  14. Demigan

    Yes lots of things fall into that category, which is one more reason to shift away from murder being the primary method of achieving things. Killing should be a means to an end, not the end result. Instead it should be about attempting to create or destroy a secondary objective to proceed.

    Simple examples:
    Engineer can buy a 100 resource NDZ object that prevents enemy Sunderers from deploying nearby (but does not stop already deployed Sunderers). This lets defenders stall the enemy advance as they first have to clear the object before they can use the Sunderer Garage.

    Medics get a 200 nanite deployable AMS module which does not create an NDZ for other Sunderers, only for other AMS modules. It can be destroyed by concentrated small-arms and lacks a terminal, but allows you to open up multiple attack and defense routes more easily (you know, what the Router should have been).

    Such simple deployables have a significant effect on how the game can be played, and because players deploy them it changes from base to base and player to player where and how they are deployed or destroyed. It also puts a premium on certain less-combattive classes while also providing more depth to classes able to hunt down those deployables without having to mow down entire squads to get there.

    The effect on EMP's was a vague attempt to make EMP's less OP. Not letting it disturb class abilities was part of that.
  15. Demigan

    First of all, your "argument" can be used to justify anything. Like changing snipers to fire the projectile of an OS. Destroy everything in a horizontal (!) Path! OP? Nah thats just like, your opinion man!

    Second of all its not really an opinion. In the english language we have agreed that the word "good" without context means a positive thing. Now you could say "the word good means farting!" And then say its just our opinion that it means something positive. Now technically you are right, because you actively want to make it an opinion and deviate from the norm just to get your way. But in all reality you are dead wrong.

    It would be easy to set up some criteria to judge if the Infil is OP or not. For example games are about reacting to what the game throws at you. In poker its a combination of chance calculations and social interactions with your opponents while in games its reacting to the situation as it unfolds. So if you were to add a unit that prevents the player from reacting in some cases, then that is an obvious problem. And that is just one criteria.
  16. Demigan

    Nah, "good sniping positions" are usually the dumbest spots. Its usually the highest point with some cover that lets other classes get in close and kill you if they dont approach from the front.

    A good sniper will be able to snipe almost anywhere. Snipe down a street. Move to a buiding and fire a few shots out of a window, leave a mine as you leave for anyone who comes looking. Move to a boulder and fire from there. In fact that is not sniping, but a marksman. Those will not hold fire constantly and only fire at low hanging fruit, but actually support their team more directly. This also allows you to more easily move into a flanking position and then actually snipe for a bit by taking out valuable players, like a Medic keeping his allies up or picking off players regenerating their shields behind cover.

    The loss of direct combat capabilities isnt the worst. For snipers it means they dont have the ultra-easymode security of aiming while cloaked and then being behind cover again almost as soon as they fire, but that they are exposed while doing that. If that compromises your sniping spot it was never a good spot to begin with, just your cloak crutching it. If you cant make the range and getting there cloaked count then you never deserved using the infil in the first place.
  17. csvfr

    This is true, if a sniper bugs you out equip an infil hunting loadout and clean out the nest. But as snipers really aren't that much of a threat once you know where they are, most people simply ignore them.
    This is false, generally enemies follow clear, distinct paths from their spawn to the objective, and there are only a few viable spots that that have visibility over these paths. Targeting a sunderer parked next to some cover? Well then only the back area (50% of total) has clear view over the terminal and is free from hostiles randomly running to your position.
    Suppressing spawns, thinning the enemy forces, and allowing no-one to feel safe standing still does also help the team. A nerf like "cloak remains the same, but recharge time increased by 25%" would reduce the effectivness of the sniper.
  18. Somentine

    https://ps2.fisu.pw/player/?name=tounee&show=weapons

    Imagine being mad that people actually engage in combat, and are not sitting on a hill, invisible, getting a kill every couple mins.
    Imagine thinking that the Deci is more cancerous than a Bolter.
    Imagine thinking people that aren't 200 ivi 'spray-and-pray'.

    ^ Tell me you're a scrub, without directly telling me you're a scrub.
  19. Demigan

    Why just an Infil? LA's are faster and easier. Cross the buildings and terrain to get there, kill them, move to the next spot or wait for them to return, repeat.

    [/quote]This is false, generally enemies follow clear, distinct paths from their spawn to the objective, and there are only a few viable spots that that have visibility over these paths. [/quote]

    The "few" spots is "anywhere and everywhere, except some smaller indoors battles". While you can definitely focus on the main routes, where again virtually any doorway or window or piece of cover with a view of that route and more than +/-30m distance is viable, you can also focus on the people who work on the flanks. Those are also the people who are the most likely to come and kill you if you focus on the main route enemies so it also helps protect you. This has the added advantage that you are in a flanking position yourself and will likely pass some good opportunities to pick off people in cover of the main route. Its how I snipe, although I usually revert to SMG's or BR's for the higher flexibility and more hands-on dealing with multiple enemies it offers.

    But you dont have to try to farm the players at the Sunderer. You can also try to strike them as they leave its vicinity, which broadens the area. The problem as far as I can tell is that you expect headshots on stationary targets or targets moving in a single direction. I snipe at people who are dodging and running around just as much, which may not pad my bottom line but has a lot more value since I shoot more active and dangerous players.

    You can do those things just fine with a 2 second decloak time. A nerf to recharge time would only nerf the amount of times you can cheaply murder infantry from cloak and the speed with which you can get around cloaked, not reduce the effectiveness of the sniper.
  20. VhynSeven

    Given how you trashtalk people that prefer sniping than being a "manly rambo that goes balls first into the fray" , you might as well be the scrub.