Cloaking takes away the fun

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by McMansikka, Oct 19, 2021.

  1. McMansikka

    So, I think the cloaking mechanics in the game are broken. I don't talk about snipers but these front line, running around knife in hand or ramming people with cloaked flashes, kind of players.
    Recloaking time should be increased or not be possible while moving. Or some other ways for other classes to spot cloaked players than just the light, that knida sucks. (Maybe something like the night vision scope that was in the launch of the game, but maybe not so op.).
    Cloakers have their time and place, and are good class for tactical stuff, but the cloaking is broken.
    Also whos idea was those invisible flashes? They add nothing valuable to the game. Please tell me if they add something.
    Daybreak keeps introducing new broken guns and fixing them, but a core component, a class, is pretty broken.
    • Up x 5
  2. MonnyMoony

    I agree that wraith flash, and particularly roadkill cheese needs to be addressed - but cloaking isn't really broken.

    I believe one of the reasons you see so many cloakers these days is that it's the only way to stay alive for more than a few seconds. Players are adapting to what the game (and the other players) throw at them.

    I was playing on Indar a couple of days ago and was running stalker at Ti Alloys. I would decloak to engage an enemy and would just about get a kill before BOOM - Hesh spammed from the hillside near Allatum, BRRRRRT, dead from a banshee mossie or WTF was that - roadkilled by a sweaty tryhard Harasser.
    • Up x 2
  3. JibbaJabba

    Maybe someday they'll fix it and I'll come back and pay money again
    • Up x 4
  4. honeybaddggger

    @RPG_Wrel You guys need to do something about cloaking, it is really being abused and not a good game mechanic as is. And if you're just going to reply "we think its fine", don't because you are wrong, it is not fine. That is all.
    • Up x 7
  5. JustGotSuspended



    This is an issue. You say cloaking isn't really broken then admit it's the only way to survive for huge periods of time. While I do agree the vehicle cheese needs to be tuned down - and cloak vehicles removed - there's definitely some work that needs to be done regarding the cloak for infantry.

    As you say it's the go to class for people who want to play infantry easy mode and survive for a while, and on top of that score some kills with 1hk or other powerful weapons. Just like being blasted by a banshee when you walk out the spawn isn't very amusing, instantly dying to something you couldn't see even if you tried isn't particularly entertaining either. There needs to be some sort of rework to allow for some counterplay against the infiltrator class, without having to pull a vehicle or infiltrator yourself.

    Cloak in a shooter will always be controversial, and it's even worse in an MMO fps as there are already so many things to focus on, it just adds another layer to protect cloak users from ever being noticed.

    But planetside has really outdone itself buffing the class over the years. It'd be quite interesting to hear from the dude that thought adding infinite cloak, nano-armor cloak, 1hk, emps, recon and smgs to the class and didn't realize it's been broken beyond belief for years now.
    • Up x 2
  6. JustGotSuspended

    LOL

    maybe someday I'll wake up being a trillionaire
  7. InexoraVC


    Yes, really doesn't matter how high is your skill - enemy does see you and ADSing, but you don't.
    • Up x 3
  8. JustGotSuspended

    Exactly. And then given the fact they are given weapons that have very low or no ttk, and on top of that the decloak isn't forced first on the client - good luck reacting to them.
  9. eib1980

    As far as I learned the countermeasures for cloak infantry are a heavy assault with a flashlight attached and anti-tank mines for invisible flashes. To me those tactics work very well.
  10. PlanetBound

    Maybe remove weapons from infiltrators.
    • Up x 2
  11. OldSchoolD

    Kill with cheese, die by cheese. The bad use it, and everyone else resorts to it to get rid of the pest. Maybe you were the one who triggered those vengeful cheese riders? We know it's a downwards spiral of cheese these days...
    • Up x 1
  12. Demigan

    Tl, dr:
    Extend decloak time to 2+seconds for any cloak.
    Reduce Flash damage when running infantry over.
    Flash receives damage from ramming MAX's.

    Long version:

    The solution to cloak is very simple: extend the decloak duration.

    Adding a cooldown before a cloaker can cloak again has little effect on their biggest complaint: being able to kill you essentially from stealth. Especially in scenarios like snipers who can simply wait the cooldown behind cover or cloakers who prey on solitary people it would have no effect since they can still ram a knife in you from cloak or a bullet in your brain.

    Extending the decloak on the other hand has a massive and positive effect. For example lets say a decloak of 2 or 3 seconds, with the sound and weapon lock extending that time. Cloakers can then no longer insta-murder you from cloak and players are better warned for attacks. A 2 second decloak would push it into flanking attacks only, which to me is what cloak should be designed for, 4 or 5 second decloak would make cloaking just a way to get to a position or escape.

    Flashes while cloaked would need to deal less ram damage. In fact at 90km/h they should not OHK infantry anyway. Not because of Physics, a 300kg quad ramming you at 50km/h is likely already lethal, but because its better gameplay wise. The Flash would also need to slow down for every infantry hit, and receive equal damage when ramming a MAX (and since a Flash has less health the best you can hope for is a mutual destruction).

    That would solve all cloak problems in one go.
  13. brutes359


    Put a phoenix launcher on the back of a cloaked flash and then tell me that it adds nothing. I agree with this post whole heartedly, but I disagree that cloaked flashes are pointless. If you have a cloaked flash with a backseat phoenix launcher, you effectively have a cloaked precision missile system that is all terrain and moves at high speeds. Added bonus is that the heavy can still pilot the missile while the flash is cloaked. Decloak, fire, recloak, move. Me and my buddies have killed so many sunderers this way.

    And don't even get me started on the C-4 delivery quads. one LA or heavy on the back with c-4 and a mad enough driver to deliver you straight to an enemy tank or sundy is an easy and effective way to trash them.

    The issue isn't the cloak itself. Its that there is no counter to them. There used to be in the form of the thermal optics, but they torched those because everyone used them FOR THEIR INTENDED PURPOSE, and then complained that they were op....nevermind that they killed your peripheral vision.

    So don't nerf cloaking, add a counter to cloaking. Lock on missiles should still lock onto a cloaked vehicle. Just because they aren't reflecting light, doesn't mean they don't have a heat signature. That will deal with the cloaked flashes. Then bring back thermal optics for dealing with cloaks, or maybe even add a special optic that ONLY spots cloaked targets. Or you could add an optic that acts like the current thermal threat detection, but it highlights infiltrators that are cloaked in a colored outline. All of these things would work and deal with the issue without further need for nerfs.

    Or how about a deployable EMP field generator that fries cloaking systems in a certain radius? Like the blast dampener generator, but instead of reducing explosive damage, it knocks out enemy cloaks on infiltrators who enter its radius. this way infiltrators will have to deal with it before they can attack, effectively forcing them to alert their target that something is up. It might not deal with sniper spam, or DMR users hiding in plain sight, but I would help MASSIVLY against the SMG abusers that I see getting the most kills in indoor fights, (second of course to the legendary C-4 Fairy).
    • Up x 1
  14. McMansikka

    This is a good point. Sounds effective.

    You also have good points that maybe the cloaking itself isn't the problem and I totally agree that some counter measures would be better and more fun than just nerfing the cloaking (which will prob never happen).
    I remeber when thermal skopes showed cloackers and those were good times. It was op tho, maybe something similar but something more balanced could be introduced. I don't like the flashlight as only counter measure and it has problems but I guess better than nothing :D
  15. Scroffel5

    You guys go about cloak nerfs all wrong.

    What is the problem with the cloak? Answer: You can't react to it if it is done correctly.

    What are you guys trying to do? Answer: Artificially nerf the cloak by changing values or giving hard counters.

    Why will this not work? It's simple; balancing by numbers need to be very exact to find the proper balance, and even then, it can change based on how the default or veteran player's skill levels change over time. You remember in FPS games 5 years ago when people couldn't aim and you could, so you were automatically better and smarter than most players? Yeah, look at the way things are now. Everyone has gotten better so if things don't get harder, everything is automatically easier and more unbalanced than it was before everyone was oh so good.

    Therefore, you need to balance things, yes, by changing values and giving hard counters, but more than this, you need to target your nerfs to player's thoughts and senses. If you want to make the cloak more fair, along with a change to decloaking numbers, make it HARDER for players to USE. If its harder for them use it by default, you will automatically have less problems as it will require a more skilled user to use it. We can do this by adjusting how the visibility of different cloaks and how it interacts with your movement. That affects how you play. And we don't necessarily need to make every counter a hard counter to it.

    Take Stalker cloak, for instance. You can be cloaked forever if you don't outmove your timer, but the visibility of your cloak is the exact same as the Hunter Cloak. How fair is that? A removal of primary weapons doesn't fix that, because you are being attacked from stealth regardless. There is no way to find a stalker without using gear. In fact, there is no way to find any Infiltrator without using gear, let alone for hearing them decloak. So I propose we change the visibility of the different cloaks in different states so that we are able to find them. For Stalkers, they are obviously supposed to be a Quantity over Quality option, as we see from the duration of the cloak. Therefore, why should we not lower the quality of said CLOAK, and not solely the class? Why can't the deep cloak of a Stalker be more visible than the deep cloak of a Hunter? Wouldn't it make more sense from a story standpoint?

    What can we do for the Hunter cloak? I think its visibility is fine where it is, as it is supposed to be Quality over Quantity. However, I think that since it is a Hunter and since you are getting the jump on someone, why not make that your only option, unless you can score all headshots with your high headshot multiplier weapons? Therefore, lower the HP of the class to 750 in all, granting you 500 health and 250 shield health. Being 2-3 bullets down in a fight seems more fair, does it not? If need be, you could simply create a modifier so that you can have 1000 HP, just like every other class, but you take more damage to certain types of weapons. That seems reasonable, does it not? Of course, this change would be in conjunction with a longer decloak time, maybe changed to whatever the average ping on the server is.

    WRAITH CLOAK

    As for the Wraith cloak, you are going about that wrong too. You want to stop getting roadkilled as easily and as often by lowering the damage of it. No. That doesn't make sense. Instead, change the way players play with it when they want to roadkill. Lorewise, you could make a "PSA" that new technological advancements have upgraded to cloak to, instead of simply making you transparent, it causes things to phase through you by bending matter and light around you. If you change the cloak to work reasonably within these parameters, i.e by making you non-collidable while cloaked AND for things to look warped around you, you kill two birds with one stone. Now you can find a cloaker who is hiding by noticing things around them looking wonky, similiar to what they are now, but they can no longer roadkill you while they are cloaked. That forces players to drive up to you uncloaked to roadkill you. They can drive around cloaked, find a target, and uncloak when they get close enough. Is that not more fair?

    COUNTER-MEASURES

    As for finding new counters to the cloak, you are even going about that wrong. You want counters that were either previously in the game or things you have to equip. Why don't you see how problematic that is?

    Do you not hate having to use the Darklight to find any Infiltrators lurking in the shadows? It forces you to give up a slot in order to find a CLASS, a very important part of the game! Thats terrible! Thats stupid! Why not instead give us tools to PASSIVELY find Infiltrators using our sight (looking for warping around Infiltrators that would be unnoticeable to anyone who isnt actively, closely looking for them), or our hearing by making their decloak sound either more targetted or just louder? That way, you are ABLE to find Infiltrators who aren't cloaked, but it is harder. Thats basically how every detection type tool in this game should be. You should be ABLE to do something without it, but it would be EASIER to use one than to learn how to do that something without it.

    Why not also add passive obstacles for Infiltrators to overcome? If we have suggested this once, we have suggested this twice. Why don't vehicle headlights and base spotlights illuminate cloaked Infiltrators just like a Darklight does? If that were the case, it would make playing as Infiltrators more of a challenge, albeit a fun one. Imagine having to not only be situationally aware of what players may possibly see you move, but also have to watch out for a light that is lighting you up?

    Of course, we can add those hard counters, such as a deployable spotlight to illuminate Infils or triplines to decloak them for a specific time or EMP grenades for another class or whatever else you can think of. But the bottom line is that the only counter can't be just changing some numbers. As players get used to those changes, the changes won't have made much of an affect.
  16. Demigan

    Phoenix on a Flash is a fun thing, not an effective one. The DPS of a Phoenix against Sunderers means its only effective against undefended one's. Shield Sundies can even regen parts of the shield if your flash driver remains at a distance, which means you run out of ammo before the kill. You are faster and more effective with a deci+fury cloak flash than with a Phoenix. Or just fire the Phoenix point blank to increase the DPS.

    We did some platoon ops with Phoenix launchers and it was cheap, fun but impossible to coordinate. After each shot the players had to find out where they were in relation to their targets and leadership in order to effectively fire at the target, then fly a limited vision missile to the target (unless you remove HUD).
  17. Demigan

    Increasing skill requirements is OK in a matchmaking game but its an unnecessary gateing system in a game where the newby can have to fight the best player in the world. Easy to learn, hard to master should be the goal.

    I say my idea of 2 seconds decloak would work wonders. It changes the way cloak is used on the attack, even for players who "get used to those changes" they cannot suddenly kill someone from stealth anymore.

    As for countermeasures, they need to be both passive and active. Being able to see shimmers when moving is great and when they sit still I dont think its a problem if they are almost invisible. But to have more way to detect them is great.

    Example: every player can pick between two passive options of geiger counter in a new slot. One picks it up all around them and the other only in a small cone in the direction they are looking. When cloaked an Infil now sends out radiation that can be picked up (you respawn before you get cancers or radiation sickness anyway). The AOE geiger counter has a limited range but warns you if an Infil is nearby and cloaked, tipping you off to look for one. The directional one has more range and gives you more detailed information to find their exact position, but does not warn you if one is sneaking up on you. Ofcourse just like EMP radiation the geiger teller would not be hindered by obstacles, which can be an advantage or exploited by the infiltrators.

    Then there are more active options that need to counter more than just the Infiltrator. Darklights are solely for detecting Infils and take more important choices. They would need to have more options to deal with other classes as well. For example being able to create a light flash effect on enemies by momentarily flashing the darklight or letting a darklight aimed at your screen obscure the people and terrain behind them, which has been done in other games already.
  18. G.O.A.T

    I love cloakers, easy as hell to kill, weak as hell....Most of the time you can see them a mile away....Only a few are actually good but those are the top top players.....The rest of the infiltrators are easy kills for LA/HA.


    So yeah, infiltrators are pretty well balanced and should be no problem for most players.


    Invisible Flashes are fun, that's what they add fun......You can take out a flash easily, specially if you have aware teammates....Stop making it sound like it's impossible lol.


    BTW I never cloak....I just play infantry and know how easy cloakers are to kill.
    • Up x 1
  19. V00D00 5M1L3

    The idea with the 2 different "geiger-counters" is not bad, but it requires combined efforts of at least 2 players to pinpoint stalkers, and is unlikely to happen quick enough, before the stalker retreats. It also forces solo players to rely on the "traditional" methods of catching cloakers, like shooting whole magazines into corners, lobbing grenades into every room, darklighting every square inch of the map, running along the walls, hoping to stumble into them, etc. ...

    But what about "decloaking" UBGL-grenades, with greater AOE lasting a few seconds to reveal cloaked stalkers, painted in their faction colour, like the darklight does...? Would probably make weapons with underbarrel launchers a bit more attractive options than the meta cheese...

    What about "disruptor field generators" as deployables, similiar to Motion Spotters, that make the cloak frequently "stutter", as long as the cloaker is in pulse range...?? Sounds like an effective DOA, cloakers have to bypass or disable first, before entering a certain area safely...

    What about unobtrusively "decloaking traps", attachable to any surface, just like C4, rendering the stalker pants down after triggering them by proximity switch, let's say for 5 seconds...??? - "CONTACT!!! - FIRE IN THE HOLE!!!" ...

    All 3 suggestions could be implemented as optional deployables, or grenades with relative EASE by the devs, and would not only instill uncomfortably uncertainty into usually too self-confident stalkers, but also counter their cloak advantage INSTANTLY ON DEMAND, if used in a sensible way and forces them to **** or die. Giving every class one of these options to counter their cloak should be sufficient to nerf the Infiltrator class into oblivion forever, and get back to the business-as-usual A2G-, HESH-, Roadkill-slaughterfest causing dozens of kills/sec for a few, while dozens of just-respawning noobs get insta-farmed repeatedly a hundred times before rage-quitting finally... Good idea! But this won't ever happen, because the devs never take a look into their own forum, ahaha...

    Now serious - as Stalker-main i got OHKd hundreds of times cloaked, crouched, static, not even camera moving by BR100+ veterans, that swer, they could "easily see me sneaking along", although i used DEEP OPERATIVE (activated!) and proceeded with extreme caution... if THAT isn't enough assurance, that the Infiltrator class can ALREADY be countered by experienced players just by means of PLAIN EYESIGHT, i really don't know, what else is enough... Just ask the one above!

    I got backstabbed a hundred times, got headshot from above, was lured into clusters of mines, and did the same as stalker myself to foes, and can tell honestly, it's hard to kill overpowershielded HAs, wielding easy-cheesy meta-weaponry, yes - but to ESCAPE ALIVE, kill another foe, and another and become a SEVERE threat behind enemy lines is a total different story... That requires skill, experience, patience and sometimes cold bloodedness 2nd to none, and is everything but easy to achieve by just a shimmering CLOAK. The cloak is barely more than an unreliable tool to get into position - nerfing it even more, means rendering it useless! It's totally broken on NSO Infils already! You could as well erase the whole class from PS2 and call it another game then... Problem solved, case closed. However - no more fun for G.O.A.T without Infils, then. So sorry for you... pfff...

    I apologize for the walls of text, and my clumsy english - it's not my native language...
    I also apologize for my rant. Playing as stalker is sometimes not very rewarding, even, when you hecticly support half the faction by recon darting the whole hex, countersniping every Infil popping up, and hacking every single terminal and turret sweating for half an hour non-stop! There's no "thx" in the end. Imagine that, before you judge the "Invisibles" the way you apparently do!
    • Up x 1
  20. brutes359

    well then...1 paragraph of suggestion counter items and three people write a great wall of response text. Dont I feel loved. But truthfully, there is no real reason not to add some form of counter to cloakers.

    If thee argument against hard counters is going to be used for infiltrators, then it also begs why it exists elsewhere as well. Why did the archer get added? MAX suits only only have around between 5-10 ft ranges anyway? Why do tank mines exist? or rocklet launchers?

    Can cloakers be countered? yes, they can, but people shouldn't have to gain near perfect 20-20 vision with telescopic perception to spot a cloaker. And adding a tool that must be within 5 feet to spot a target that is capable of instant killing you with an SMG is not practical. Nor does it offer a counter to cloakers using snipers or DMRs. There needs to be hard counters for those things. Thermal optics were that counter for a long time. In light of their nerfing, a deployable anti-cloak Generator would be perfect. it must be placed, can be destroyed, but gives off around a 10-15 foot anti cloak field. Infiltrators can still destroy it before approaching, but it gives the other player a chance to at least know they are there.

    Just because something can be countered if your good doesn't necessarily mean its balanced. A good LA can can kill anything in the game. So can a good MAX. But that's the key phrase, a GOOD player. not an average player. This goes double when you consider how many long standing veterans the game has now. Newbies need counters to those players if they want to stand a chance.
    • Up x 2