Cloak is not useless

Discussion in 'Infiltrator' started by Loui5D, Mar 17, 2013.

  1. Ztiller

    There is a big difference between comparing specific details, and comparing an overall functionality. You are comparing specific details about the cloak and weaponry. I am comparing the overall usefulness of stealth classes in general.

    That is your opinion. I consider the infiltrator to be extremely useful.

    Yep, that's the exact reason why i dismiss it.

    And i always bring an infiltrator. Maybe they think it is weak, because there are so few good infiltrators? Also, i find that a lot of outfit leaders completely lack any sort of strategic and tactical thinking and just want to overwhelm the enemy with sheer numbers.

    Yes, bombercon was one of my favorite profiles. However nobody ever brought a Bombercon or Meleecon to AvA. Most people didn't even bring Bombs at all. It was always snipercon, except for some extremely unorthodox recons who differed. But they were an overwhelming minority.

    The rest is once again just your personal opinion, and you still know why i think you are wrong.

    Still your opinion. Apart from blowing up vehicles in a general sense (I've probably destroyed more vehicles with my infiltrator this weekend than most Heavy Assaults destroy in a month), there is nothing that the Infiltrator cannot do that the Light Assault, or Heavy Assault can do.

    Like Demon said, i'd like to prefer if this did not turn into yet another stale battle between the two of us, since it should be well known that we don't agree, and i have told you why.

    I have ill answered what i feel necessary about this post, and i'll not reply to you any more in this thread.
  2. Rhyl

    I don't think we're underpowered but.. if the class itself requires more skill than other classes then that does make it underpowered. If it's easy to be effective as another class and hard to be effective as another class then the easy to play class is better. Sure you can dominate if you put in more time and effort with the harder class but then again if you put that same amount of time in the easier class you will simply be even more effective. As mentioned multiple times, in the leader boards, killing power wise we are completely outclassed severely until the 40's. The best infiltrator is in the 40's whereas every other class completely dominates him. So either the infiltrators (killing wise) are played by inferior players or everyone else is simply better than us at killing.

    You've mentioned about how you've cleared entire "trenches" of enemies within minutes. You don't match the killing power or the k/d ratio of those in the top 40. So obviously they can do the same thing but better. Not bashing you as a player but I think your argument is flawed. However, I don't think our class is about killing power anyway. I just don't know why in multiple threads you bring up how fast you can kill to prove a point when other classes have done better than the BEST infiltrator in the game.
    • Up x 1
  3. Ztiller

    Not necessarily. For example, the scoreboard does not distinguish from vehicle kills with Heavy Assault or regular kills. Neither does it distinguish from time played. If someone plays 3x as much, and accumulates 2x as many kills, he will still be higher on the board. My guess would be that the players with the most kills gets them from Liberator gunning or Prowler He-spamming etc.

    Also, take for example the Heavy assault whos sole job is to kill as much as fast as possible. The infiltrator on the other hand have different jobs, like hacking or scouting. The Heavy assault kills enemies and literally nothing else. So for him to have loads of kills does not come as a surprise.

    Don't forget that the Infiltrator is probably the least played class, giving us a much smaller pool of players to reach higher on the scoreboard.

    Excuses aside, just because the infiltrator does not top the scoreboard over most kills, does not even remotely mean that the class is useless. I believe that the people who believe the class is useless are simply bad at it. I just came from a session where i cleared Prowler Hill from tanks and sunderers 2 times over in 5 minutes. And it's like the 15th time this weekend. No other class in the game could do that.
  4. Rhyl

    Of course not. I have never once implied the class is useless. Even said that in my main body. I just disagree that we are the ultimate killing machines. Even with the smaller pool of players and even with engineers and heavy aside. The top infiltrator is still number 48. It's not so much that the infiltrator "just" drops off barely. In terms of experience efficiency we're on the lowest. The top infiltrator if you check his time played has more time played than many of those above him. Not that it matters. He's still lower than even the medics. Am I saying we're useless? Absolutely not. I feel useful many times and there's been quite a few times where I feel the reason the base fell was because of me or at least made it fall that much quicker.

    I too have hacked turrets, dropped important sunderers, etc. My favorite was when Terran were using a bunch of armor to road block our own armor as heavy assault bombarded them with rockets. Preventing them from gaining a foot hold into the crown. I cleared the way with their own turret, our tanks pushed through, and we ended up taking the crown. So yes. I don't share the same sentiment of those who believe we are a weak and useless class. What I would like to see, however, is that hacking turrets/terminals doesn't stop giving exp after awhile. Medics don't stop gaining exp from healing/reviving and neither do engineers for supplying ammo.

    Really aside from bug fixes and that issue? It's all I really want. I'd also like to be able to hack unoccupied or nonmoving tanks but that's a wish list and not a need. I don't believe we have the most killing power. I don't believe we are the most experience efficient. I do think there's an experience deficiency in our class (which can be aided by the above fixes and possible spot bonuses for tracer dart kills. Just minor easily implemented things.

    I'm merely commenting on your whole "We can be the most deadly and feared class" then bringing up how many people you killed with your sniper rifle. Again, I just don't think we're measured by our killing power but in our power to disorient, confuse, and wreck havoc. That's all.
    • Up x 1
  5. Transvestosaurus

    If the Inf is so useless, how come there are currently 1,396 discussions on the Inf board, more than any other class and almost as many as the Medic, Engi and MAX put together?

    I was under the impression that Inf (despite what people say about it being UP) is one of the most popular classes.
  6. Ztiller

    I have a feeling it is because this community have a deep love for whining. About everything. People seem more content with the other classes.
  7. Dr. Euthanasia

    Oh, you mean like right here?

    Funny how you didn't respond to that one.

    It's an opinion supported by statistics and the collective experience of an overwhelming majority of Infiltrator players. I've yet to see you prove the Infiltrator's effectiveness at anything other than killing players who aren't doing anything of tactical significance. Moreover, you haven't attempted to quantify how much better the Infiltrator is at this than another class in the same situation, or how easily the Infiltrator can get into that situation compared to another class.

    I want to see a video of you in a full squad or more, playing nothing but Infiltrator, and doing something which actually helps the group of people you're playing with complete their objective. No editing except to fill in the gaps of uneventful travel time and waiting for bases to flip without action. If it contains anything other than you killing players who could have been taken down far more easily with a shotgun or LMG, hacking terminals, and spitting out recon darts, I might just take these claims seriously.

    Once again, because the sniper was actually good at singling out important targets and because they stayed dead. The death of an individual in Planetside 2 doesn't matter, and even the ability to kill dozens of players is meaningless without context. A tank can kill that many with almost no fear of retaliation, but you can't take it indoors. An Infiltrator is very much the same thing - potentially the most lethal class in a few niche situations (although not as many as a tank, and not as lethal as someone in a tank in any of them), and nothing more than dead weight elsewhere. This would be approaching "alright" if those situations the Infiltrator was uniquely powerful in were actually important, but they aren't. Capture points are primarily indoors, as are generators and SCUs.

    Except traverse unclimbable terrain, absorb significantly more damage, carry shotguns, engage aircraft...

    But even if none of that mattered, for everything that both they and an Infiltrator can do, they do it better than the Infiltrator.

    I'll argue with anyone who tries to defend the current state of the Infiltrator. I don't need to convince you that I'm right, because the other people who read this will still receive my argument indirectly. With any luck, someone who works for SOE is among them.

    There's no logical connection between those two things. You could just as easily say that the Infiltrator subforum is the least content and the strong desire for change is what has spawned such active discussion. And indeed, that's a lot closer to the truth than the idea that we're all just so happy with the class.
    • Up x 1
  8. Rhyl

    Actually it's been confirmed we're the least popular but that doesn't mean anything. Number of posts don't always determine popularity. Not to mention everyone loves the idea of playing stealth classes but unless they're severely overpowered can't stomach playing them for a length of time. I think the number of posts is because if you look in other forums people ask for advice, loadouts, discuss a bug or two here and there..

    And in this sub forum so many people have, in their mind, what their view of infiltrator should be like. Arguments tend to draw more people to post more often. This is because people have issues letting things go. This forum is filled with everyone fighting over what they think the infiltrator should be, it's role, and capabilities. Right now we have some glaring bugs but with those aside I think the infiltrator is more or less fine. This is my opinion of course and I do believe we could use SOME tweaking but it's really minor stuff.

    I would not, on the other hand, tell someone they are bad or to "learn to play." if they're not happy with the current rendition of the infiltrator. Especially considering many people playing this are verteran ps1 players who are used to something that is much different. I never played ps1 so I never experienced this.
  9. Whateverworks

    There are so many posts because so many people are suggesting fixes for a class that is viewed as having little to do in game.

    Medics are (for the most part) a well designed class with a lot to do on the battlefield and has good weapons. The forum is quiet because we're in a good place and don't have anything to complain about. As a matter of fact, someone asked recently why the medic forum was so quiet in the medic forums; you might want to go see what the answers are.
    • Up x 1
  10. Stordito

    cloak it's not useless

    it warns the enemies of your presence, it deny your ability to shoot freely, and reminds you there are other class with better tools for the job.
    • Up x 1
  11. Transvestosaurus

    TBH I don't visit the Inf board much. I am in no way stealthy and lack even the very basic skills to be so (I usually play Engi and blow stuff up try to blow stuff up but usually get caught...)

    So there ya go, I learned something new today.

    But still. It seems like there are an awful lot of Infs about. I'll accept the numbers if there actually aren't. But they definitely make their presence felt every time I'm defending something. One guy coming in the back with an SMG is worth ten of the idiots running at the front door. Maybe it really is just one guy, over and over... maybe it's you... you **** :p

    In fact, after getting MOAR EXPLOSIVES I was going to cert an SMG Inf. Looks fun.
  12. Rhyl

    Yeah, I can survive for 4-20 kills at times. People will respawn, come to the same spot, and then I'll kill them just for them to come back and repeat. It's pretty fun. I am pretty much nearly 100% a CQC infiltrator and use the Sirius. I also use Nano Armor Cloak which many claim is "worthless." but I totally disagree there as well. That being said, the SMG isn't an I-win button that most people think it is. You still need to be stealthy and catch your opponent off guard. I mean, heavies can use one as well and even without one they have more health/shields than we do. Combined with their heavy shield you probably won't win a head to head fight with one (although I don't think we should). Favorite tactics include trying to lose LOS, run them down on ammo and catch them on the reload, or even sometimes dropping proximity mines as they give chase to either weaken/finish them off.

    I will say this if you decide to try Nano Armor Cloak the first level really sucks. It only becomes decent when fully certed. It was an investment and I haven't touched hunter cloak since. Another good trick is to not rely 100% on cloak. Learn to get around without cloak and you'll learn to appreciate cloak even more when you need it to find cover/get in. With Nano Armor Cloak I try to save it as much as I can and it's great to use when trying to break los. It lasts long enough to do just that and allows you to take a few more hits which can be the difference between survival/death. I also will use it while reloading or switching weapons. Fading in and out to take an extra bullet or two.

    Just some general tips with my experience.
  13. Ztiller

    Oh man, this is absolutely hilarious XD

    You want me to play as an infiltrator, but i'm not supposed to use anything that makes the class special? And i'm not supposed to kill enemies.

    Why don't you show me a video of you supporting the team as an engineer. But you're not allowed to kill enemies that might as easily have been killed by a Heavy Assault, you're not allowed to deploy ammo, use the repair tool or place explosives.

    Oh, and please show me a video of you supporting the team as a medic, but you're not allowed to use your Medgun, ability or C4.

    And then a video of you playing as a Heavy Assault. But you're not allowed to use the Rocket launcher. And you can't kill any enemies that might as easily have been killed by an infiltrator or Light Assault.

    Haha, seriously dude? Just wow! XD

    This community is so obsessed about how the infiltrator can't support the team, that they have forgotten how to play the game in the first place.
  14. CanadianAttackBeaver

    Just to chime in; this is ridiculous.

    If you take the lowest skill players, the classes requiring less skill will be better represented on the score meters.

    If you take the highest skill players, the classes whose mechanics require skill to be used effectively will, at the least, be represented on the score meters similarly to the classes with simpler mechanics.

    A steeper learning curve does not equate to an underperformance by any class.

    You would have a valid point if you stated that the perceived underperformance of the Infiltrator class is due to the difficulty of the general player base in achieving success with the class mechanics as they stand now. This would support an argument that the difficulty is impacting performance, but does not necessarily equate to proof of being underpowered. The importance of this could also be determined by the proportion of players playing as an Infiltrator; if it's relatively equal to other classes, then players obviously don't care about the curve.
  15. Rhyl

    Good points. I have no argument for that.
  16. Vaphell

    he asked you to show the priceless unique quality you introduce to the team for the fact you are an infiltrator, not a good all-around FPS player, something that can't be achieved by the LA with few shotgun shells or C4 bricks.
    Imo hacking terminals is not it, otherwise your allies would value terminals more than destroy them on sight for puny xp, nor is farming vehicles with AV turrets at Crossroads Watchtower, pretty much the only place in the whole game where it's a viable tactic with somewhat predictable results (all these juicy targets concentrating on the Crown).

    Organized play is about the management of luck and unpredictability, about adaptability. Infiltrator is 50% made of luck and his adaptability tanks as soon as vehicles show up. That means YOU CAN'T DEPEND ON INFILTRATORS in team play - if you want to limit upredictability, limit your exposure to the extremely situational wildcard the infiltrators are, simple as that.
    • Up x 1
  17. Ztiller

    And then he asked me to do it without using the unique abilities given to me by the infiltrator. I'm supposed to contribute to the team in a unique way, without using any of my unique tools. Just like asking a Medic to contribute in a unique way, without using his Medgun.

    He also told me that i am not allowed to kill enemies that could have been killed by someone else. Which makes it an absolutely ridiculous point that literally made me laugh.

    I have already posted a video of me blasting 6 Prowlers in 45 seconds, who were laying siege at Tawrich techplant, and was pummeling our Sunderer. But of course that doesn't count.

    Infiltration might be 50% luck, if you have no idea what you are doing. But to us who do, i assure you that luck is just as irrelevant to me, as it is for a Heavy Assault.
  18. Dr. Euthanasia

    It's not me who has forgotten how to play the game, it's you who has apparently forgotten how to read. Here's what I asked:

    "I want to see a video of you in a full squad or more, playing nothing but Infiltrator, and doing something which actually helps the group of people you're playing with complete their objective. No editing except to fill in the gaps of uneventful travel time and waiting for bases to flip without action."

    Go right ahead and do whatever you think makes the Infiltrator special. You can kill as many players as you want - just don't expect me to be impressed unless it's clear that another class would have been less effective at killing them and their deaths serve some constructive purpose to your empire. Likewise, I won't be impressed by you dropping recon darts because that requires no skill and can be substituted with a radar-equipped Flash, and unless I see you hacking terminals to actively deny enemy players from spawning vehicles while they still control that section of their base, I'm probably not going to be too amazed at your ability to walk up to a screen and hold down E. I'm well aware of all of these capabilities and they aren't enough, so go ahead and use them, but don't expect it to change my stance even slightly.

    Now, if you can show me something else, something that would have been impossible or unreasonably hard as another class, I might actually start to believe that the problem here really is a lack of good Infiltrators rather than your distorted perception of what a good Infiltrator is. I've done something that fits this description precisely once, and it was the most fulfilling experience I have ever had playing Planetside 2. What I'm asking is that you prove the Infiltrator is as worthy as you say it is, and show me something like that.
  19. Vaphell

    no, he did not forbid you from using class abilities, he asserted that terminal hacking and probe spamming are low value in the grand scheme of things and he wants something with more substance.

    the closest thing to that would be creative tactics involving smuggling people using wraith but that's a recent development.

    like i believe you. If you run away cloaked from a guy that chases you and your battery is drained, meeting the guy with the pump action around the corner (or not) is a matter of bad luck/luck. You have no idea what's waiting for you most of the time. You run upstairs with pistol in hand only to meet engie with his turret pointed right in your face. HA can enable his ubershield, what do you do? Yes, i am sure you foresee all of that.
  20. Ztiller

    Here you go, jump to 1:40

    6 Prowlers in 45 seconds, single handedly, who were pummeling away at our defense and Sunderer, effectively breaking their siege.

    I am quite certain that no other class have managed to do something like that.

    And if you're going to whine about it not being in a Squad, then just use your little fantasy and imagine my squad defending the Tech Plant, because i undoubtedly contributed more to my team in those 45 seconds than most platoons can do in 5x that time.

    And with that i will stick to my word and not answer you anymore in this thread. Although i'm sure you will find some way to dismiss this video.

    Meeting a guy with a pump action around the corner is a matter of luck for ANY class, not just the infiltrator.

    Also, the skill part is to make sure that your battery doesn't run out at that point.

    Ha can enable his ubershield, but it doesn't necessarily save him. Medic, La, engineer will die. Infiltrator can cloak and escape. Just because you can't, doesn't mean i can't.