Changes to Air on pts

So why not coordinate with other Top Pilots and head to the Test Server for duels, or coordinate and go to some Continent or region for duels? Why do so many Skyknights prowl the enemy Warpgate or cruise along the Battlefront lines (with no regard for their own forces) to jump and pick apart random ESFs?

That is ludicrous. Top Pilots do not need A2AM to pick apart lower skilled Pilots. Even non-Top Pilots do not need A2AM to pick apart lower skilled Pilots. The skill gap is already so wide, that Pilots of different skill levels are radically mismatched to the point that it is unlikely for the better pilot to lose. I am an average level ESF pilot, and I don't lose to lower skilled pilots in an even fight (unless maybe I'm running LPPA), and I don't beat higher skilled pilots in an even fight.

In addition, many Top Pilots use Fuel Tank, and that also is a massive advantage in A2A duels... but we don't hear Skyknights complain about it and wanting it nerfed. Indeed, when discussion has come up to make Fuel Tanks standard on all ESFs, many Skyknights lobby against it. It's just self-minded players wanting to keep whatever edge they have, while getting rid of whatever edge their opponent has.

If you are talking about two Pilots of fairly even skill level, and for those two to have A2AM be a massive advantage, then I am fine with that. But such a matchup in the skies is not common.

Pushing ESF duels exclusively into Nosegun Duels is just widening the skill gap on ESFs. Both the skill of experience (and a very cryptic learning curve) and the skill of raw aim. Any player failing one or the other is doomed to being far behind in that skill gap.

You support it because you are good at it and you like it. But is a wreck for a combined arms, non-skill segregated, large player population, mainstream intended, massive game.

The 2 main issues with Gals for ESF are:
1) can ESF stop a Gal Drop
2) can Gals fly into enemy Air space and farm/pressure ESFs with impunity, or fly into a zone and push out ESFs from that zone.

#1:
In what world would DBG allow for ESFs to stop Gal Drops. Doing do would destroy one of the (sad and limited) cornerstones of Hardcore Organized Strategy. Threatening the viability of a stunted Server Smash meta that has existed from the early game.

#2:
If Gals can fly into enemy Air space and farm/pressure ESFs with impunity, or fly into a zone and push out ESFs from that zone, then the game is broken. Giving some ESFs the ability to chase out the Gal is not gonna fix that.

And finally, what ESF is gonna equip anti-Gal Wingmounts? Are the Skyknights gonna give up their Fuel Tanks? Are the A2Gers gonna give up their Hornets and Rocket Pods? There just aren't that many Gals in the air, and of those that are in the air, many roll over and die from Default Nosegun spam. Maybe Server Smash can use anti-Gal lockons, but that is not the Standard game. And maybe Gank Squads will still be able to use A2AM vs. ESFs, in which case they can use em on Libs and Gals too.

The raw Aim skill hurdle mandates that even players getting high on the learning curve can only reach the levels their aim skills allow.

In addition, that learning curve is going to extremely hard for most players to make any headway on.

What you are advocating is good for a niche game with a very small (and dedicated) playerbase, and in an ESF (or Air) vaccum without other combined arms Units. And none of that is a good fit for the game that is Planetside 2 (or the game Planetside 2 needs to be to grow).

Again, you are advocating a game that is extreme in excluded playability. Both in a confusing and brutal learning curve and in huge emphasis on raw Aim skills that only a small % of players have. Put them together and you get the cesspool that is accessibility to the Planetside 2 Air game.

A2AM was a way for a group of weaker players to take on a stronger player. Now that is going away.

Planetside 2 (and SOE/DBG managers/owners) should decide if they want to continue making a boutique game that limits the number of players it can get and how much it can grow and how profitable it can be, or if they want to make a mass audience game that can fund its own growth and can boost its profitability ceiling.

Planetside 2 Air game should be copying the gameplay (or parts of it) from the most popular, mass appeal Air games out there. I do personally dig a lot of the current PS2 Air game, but it is a very poor fit (and looks to get worse with the patch) for the intended nature of the MMOFPS. SOE/DBG has a long history of releasing innovative games... and then progressively pushing player demographics out of their games. It's appalling and sad.

Reading and replying simultaneously, so forgive me if it's a little incoherent. Also, breaking one of the cardinal rules... I'm green-texting you because I'm not formatting this monstrosity.

When I first started playing, and then flying esfs, I gave all the AI noseguns a try. Wasn't good enough to really use AH, the Banshee and L PPA were beasts on infantry. Only the PPA remains the beast it was, and was the last weapon I aurax'd to finish all 3 esf directives, and I didn't even realize you could have 70 in mag till I started using....even though I only have 45. From my experience, esfs can rarely be targets....but the bigger birds...quite effective imho.


Coyotes will be much more used/usefull to new pilot, since full stealth won't deter them. They are basically useless now...I've had many players ask why they couldn't hit me with them. Stealth has taken a big hit that way.

Tomcats will make up for their esf kills in another way, pilots will realize they can fire their nosegun also, when it's lock/fire/wtfnow. Really good pilots now make much more use of nosegun, multi-tasking 2 weapons at once, if using Tomcats, while maintaining or re-acquiring missile away lock. Devastating to newer players, even if used by equally skilled player.....think changes are reasonable balance w/coyote buff, engagement radar for all, comp armor buff....throw in this madness on the ground that Cortium has created...lol...lots of new creative ways to die..

All good. I found the green text very easy to read and enjoyed reading it.

Fair enough. I do see many Skyknights who ignore their Faction's toils. I appreciate that you do not.

Beating lower level pilots is fairly trivial, unless they are in larger groups. I can appreciate A2AM makes it easier, but it's already trivial.

That's a mess to get into. Regardless of what jargon we choose to identify it by, I am talking about a battle where the sides are even in numbers and have the same level of ground pressure.

A much better pilot can win with a stock ESF. But that slips as the skilled between the 2 players gets closer. Running an A2A ESF with Fuel Tank is going to push up that player's power level vs. another player running Hornets or Rocket Pods (let alone if they jump them while doing A2G).

I am saying even if all players were experts, you would still have a major imbalance due to raw Aim skill.

I am all for keeping the current Air Game with the changes:
1) of adding a system for players to learn (VR duels, etc.)
2) reducing the advantage of Aim skill (either with Aim aids, or larger hitboxes, or something else)

I am a Designer at heart, and I prefer a game that is both fun and acessible... when it's not a niche audience game.

Nerfing A2AM is not going to help the low skill pilots.

Coyotes are a cosmic joke. Stealth should have no affect on them. Also, Stealth should have its affect split to remove its monopoly: (1) one Certline for "Jamming" which affect lockons, and (2) one Certline for "Stealth" which affects showing up on Maps.

Consistently we saw lower skilled players using A2AM in groups to deal with high skilled enemy ESFs. Removing the A2AM drastically reduces those groups being able to deal with even single high skill ESF. PS2 is not a game that should have single players able to take out large groups of players, especially in a Unit that has questionable counters.

We did not see Top Players using A2AM to take out gank squads. And we saw all manner of Loadouts of Top Pilots prowling enemy Warpgates and picking off lower skill ESFs.

And I have no sympathy for the removal of the Skynight enablers from the game. I *like* the high level ESF gameplay... in a vacuum, but I don't think it has a place in PS2 or any shared space, non-skill segregating, mass audience game.

I have a lotta hours into flying. I could focus more on dueling (and hanging with Top Pilots) to tighten up my A2A duel dodging. My aim is never gonna get there.

But regardless of my personal situation, I don't think ESF is in a good place for the game. I would make all pilots able to catch me on the learning curve: a curve they can reliable work on and id and follow.

Public Loadout "decklists", Learning curve training aids, Aim aids. And *maybe* manual directional control Engine direction. Also, take a look at other popular flight games and see what they do players there like. With that, I think every player could get on a level playing fields

I'd also add Perma Air Radar over enemy non-contested territory.

Skill based gameplay has it's place. I play SF2 and it's a great arena for skill: 1-on-1 in a vacuum where players can segregate by skill (and it also helps there is little downtime between fights and there is a vast wealth of top notch learning curve aids out there)

Agreed. I only reference your skill to get perspective. The discussion (at least for us) is bigger than your or my personal skill level.

Apologies then. I will not lump you with the group that shuns team gameplay in order to farm/grief/pad stats. But that group is definitely out there.

Agreed.

I think that the protection of Hardcore Organized Players tactics has led to them having a stunted meta. If Gals were more vulnerable, then they could be made more vesatile and also High Level gameplay could get more sophisticated (though it would need a lot more changes than that I think).

I just don't see ESFs running anti-Gal Weapons for such a narrow and infrequent need. At least outside of coordinate Squad ops. We typically see players stick to Weapons that can help them out for frequent encounters.

Like we already covered:
1) it is unlikely A2AM will threaten Gal Drops
2) the majority of Gals outside Gal drop (and coordinated A2A stunts) are undercrewed and easy to take down

Which would make the new A2AM either ineffective or overkill.

Perma Air Radar over enemy Air would hurt both Gank Squads and Top Players camping enemy Warpgates. Same goes for a dedicated Continent-wide Faction chat channel for pilots.

I don't like Gank Squads or farming/griefing/padding Top Players. But I'd rather have both empowered so they can at least engage each other, than just one.

It's not about "coddling", it's about "playability". The game "needs" for x bad players to equal y good players. Forming a ratio x:y, so that any side can overload with bodies to overcome any skill gaps in their team. It's just the nature of a shared space, combined arms, non-skill segregated, etc., game.

Fine, I can accept you like combined arms. You've just clarified it.

What about non-skill segregated, mass audience, high population, shared space games? What of that is important to you? I will wait to clarify which of those elements is something you're into.

You're predicting the Air players will all be clustered at the top of the curve in a couple weeks (or high enough for the advantages to be mild). I do not predict that will happen, I think they will stagnate along that curve and the performance gap will remain.

What games?

SOE/DBG have consistently catered to the hardcore player and top players and group players. I worked on Vanguard with lots of SOE people, I've known a lot of people at SOE over the years (I live in SD, some of my closest friends are ex-SOE) and still know some at DBG, it's in their culture.

I'm talking about cherry picking ideas that translate and work. I am not talking about blind, derivative copying.

I would definitely want x low skill (not new, but low: say 20-30 sessions flying) level ESF players with the right Loadouts to be able to take out 1 high skill level ESF player. With x being something like 5-8.

I would also want ALL ESF players to be able to see their place on the learning curve and what they needed to progress along it.

New players could stick to (Dev added) VR dueling (and training) in order to get down the basics of gameplay and flight control and Weapons/Loadouts differences/usage.

Air has been a very awkward fit for the rest of the non-Air game for a long time. But that is an entirely different topic. This topic is msotly A2A.

I have pretty ridiculous hours in ESF. I am not lamenting my lack of time in them.

I think his main issue is that the VS, as the underpop faction, need something - anything to help.

On my server the VS is usually less than 30% pop - the TR approaching 40% pop - and something needs to be done to redress the balance.

Nerfing a VS ESF gun and buffing the TR nosegun isn't really going to help, is it ? Unless people enjoy sitting in a queue in VR - in which case, top update...

The average player won't even notice the change. And as far as pilots are concerned. More of them will be prone to go to VS if they don't feel like they're playing the overpowered ESF.

I would say that is extended to all ground vehicles. Unless they are equip with an AA weapon they are pretty much all helpless against aircraft. Then there is the problem that ground based AA vehicles are hard countered by everything else. A Skyguard is pretty much helpless the moment an AV anything shows up (or hell even an HE Lightning/MBT is a threat).

Like I said, that is an oversight from SOE, but it could easily be fixed.

I think one of the reasons people don't do VS is partly a cultural thing. For instance, many people from China go TR and Korea NC. In the states we can be privy to this too. When I first logged I started as an NC hardliner, eventually being taken out of my vanguards protective shell and thrust behind the twin barrels of the prowler.

People don't identify with the VS their goals are shadowy, unknown and obviously alien. The NC wants freedom everyone knows this, TR wants peace/control at any cost. Not many people can identify with the VS. I think it would've also helped if each faction got an awesome trailer instead of just the NC. Trailers that explain each others ideals and causes with explosions/tanks/running and gunning kicka** s***.

I think thats a significant contributor to the faction imbalance.

With that I'm tired and delusional good night.

The problems you mention are connery-specific. And they got no air game. Though tomcats getting nerfed might open connery up to developing one. But as it stands...
And as far as emerald is concerned, it's not a cultural thing. A lot of pilot feel cheesy using scythes so they don't use them.

As a last note, VS searches for enlightenment and wants to follow in the trace of the vanus. I put their trailer up there.

I mean like the trailer where you got the NC planetman running and gunning through the TR being a boss and then only getting stabbed by a bunch of female vanu in spandex.

And that trailer was really meh imho (the one you brought up)... But then again I don't care tooo much honestly, With the whole faction balancing measures they've put up its been alright on Connery. Past couple days I've seen some pretty even pop within a couple % of each other.

Are these numbers still correct as of right now? Because if so they're pretty nonsense.

Vortek doesn't need a magazine size increase. It's still OP as OP gets, even with a .2sec addition to reload speed. The TTK is so fast.

Hailstorm (Maelstrom) gets a ton of buffs. Minor velocity decrease but a 11% increase in damage and 3 more rounds in the magazine give it the 2nd highest Damage Per Magazine (within 3% of the Mosquito) and still the fastest reload at 1.75sec compared to 2.6 for the Vortek and 2.5 for the M18. Think about that for a moment, 2nd highest damage per magazine, 2nd fastest time to kill, and fastest reload knocking more than 1/3 off the NC/TR versions.

Mosquito rotary gets 5% damage increase and 3 more rounds in the magazine? Along with the already trash 2.5sec reload it's now by FAR the worst rotary in the game whereas in the current iteration it's at least comparable to the Hailstorm while light years behind the Vortek.

Meanwhile the Needler remains the worst default nosegun, the Locust still the worst high capacity nosegun, and the Banshee is still going to be the worst as well. Speaking of the Banshee, why is it so hard for the devs to understand that cone of fire is what's holding it back so far? LPPA and Air Hammer work because of massive radius damage/spread. With the Banshee you have to get so close to hit moving targets that you're better off using the Needler. No joke, the Needler is better at AI than the Banshee.

Maybe I'm just at a loss because I play on Emerald or something, but I know on my server the Mosquito and Scythe are constantly dueling for 2nd fiddle behind the Reaver, and with these changes the Mosquito is just simply far behind both in every area except minor damage per magazine advantages (10%) on guns that have reload times 20-50% higher.

Given that the difference between the Saron and Hailstorm is 100 m/s, 50 m/s lost on both sounds like more than a small nerf. I get that this was probably considered "op," but this was I thought faction flavor, and the scythe more or less relies on it's advantage in mid distance hover fights, otherwise it's just a slower, pancake shape, mosquito. I'm also worried about the Banshee, I get that it was bad, but I'm afraid that it'll be hard to balance. That and the new viability of coyotes will make it suddenly the best AI nosegun. LPPA was only good against mindless infantry zergs, the downsides are too high, and now it will be bad in this situation as well. AH has always felt like coyotes, op when you can't get away, but if you can focus on dodging them, relatively harmless.

As for CA, I feel like they might as well just make it a 10% health buff/ damage resist. Protecting against some things, like noseguns, while not others (coyotes?), just seems like it will cause an unintended imbalance. I especially don't see why my tanks scythe should be nerfed against one of the few targets I can after, that takes half my ammo to kill, and usually requires a friend to put down anyway (Galaxies and libs). Especially given that rocket pods and hornets are already very helpful here, despite being a2g weapons, why make them more appealing in this role?

It is clear that the ESF Air-to-Air game is being overhauled (at the apparent oversight of PS2 Dev Wrel) to meet the preferences of Top Pilots. Accordingly, everything is being pushed toward a Nosegun based ESF-vs-ESF game. The Scythe's "advantage in mid distance (1-on-1) hover fights" is regarded as being very powerful in the meta that the Top Players are directing the Devs to force the Air game into. So the Scythe's balance is being heavily based on that narrow gameplay.

I don't like Wrel's proposed vision for Air. I consistently don't like the Air meta that most Top ESF Pilots lobby for. And I am sorry your Scythe is being stuck in such a tiny box and having its balance based on what works for the handful of Top Players.

I also am worried about Banshee. For me it's just another of those weapons that is just too easy to boost into being OP. And I think SOE/DBG/Sigil Devs have consistently failed to handle delicate tuning, frequently resulting in OP monsters that wreck gameplay, and then frequently with SOE/DBG leaving said monster in-game for months and ruining gameplay during that time.

LPPA is terrible vs. ESFs, but it has consistently been a powerful A2G Weapon (primarily vs. non-MAX Infantry). It has shown high usage numbers in Server Smash due to its AI prowess, and SS is not "mindless infantry zergs".

AH is a beast in AI, including vs. MAXs. And it can be effective in Air-to-Air vs. ESFs. AH hits levels of high power when matched with high player skill. In contrast, pre-nerf Banshee and LPPA are both high power even with fairly low player skill.

I think AHs biggest problem (like many NC Weapons) is its high skill floor and a high skill ceiling that has a high power level. Such things are a mess in a non-skill segregated, massive player shared space, pvp, combined arms game.

I don't know how to interpret the CA change. Nor do I know how to interpret the nuances of the Coyote change.

I wish they had instead fixed the balance in the Air game components that are already there. Such components have tons of time in active gameplay, and are much easier to adjust to provide better gameplay. But instead, they are just making a whole bunch of new stuff which doesn't have any in-game play experience tied to it.

They would have been better fixing the overused Certs like Stealth and Fire Suppression. Or fixing the underused Certs. Instead, they just make new stuff up that doesn't make use of the current meta and doesn't just tune/fix that meta.

DBG has done some notable good design work since emerging from the ashes of SOE. But this new Air Game stuff smells bad. Hopefully I'll be surprised and be totally wrong, and these changes will fit some great Wrel Master Plan that works great. But for me it seems they are neglecting to fix the system that is there, and instead are making a new untested system with a bias toward the preferences of many top ESF pilots.

I don't understand what this is saying.

"Coyotes are a cosmic joke. Stealth should have no affect on them. Also, Stealth should have its affect split to remove its monopoly: (1) one Certline for "Jamming" which affect lockons, and (2) one Certline for "Stealth" which affects showing up on Maps."

The new patch will have coyotes unaffected by stealth. The value of stealth is tenuous at that point, not showing up on engagement radar is a niche benefit. Composite Armor is now going to more or less give you 10% more health. NAR allows an ace to trounce noob after noob, again gives you a boost to effective health in some situations. I'm not sure stealth will be viable, sure you might win that first engagement, but when you don't have the advantage of surprise, it becomes worthless.

What I mean is I don't understand the changes to tomcats, to target Libs and Galaxies. These are easy to hit with noseguns. In fact, LPPA and Rocket Pods, also hornets, just wrecks large aircraft, especially valks. And the way it was explained in the patch notes, balancing the increased a2a missile damage with CA armor that only reduces nosegun damage, doesn't make any sense at all. I'm fine with the meta changing and all that, but currently if I'm flying a2a I run either default or rotary, and tanks. I don't see why I should have to use missiles just for large aircraft, especially given I might as well run pods and be able to hit all targets. My air superiority fighter has now become an interceptor of other ESF's, which also have the choice to get a 10% damage reduction.

So to me it seems like a nerf to fuel tanks, which I'm not happy about.

Yeah it's not very well fleshed out.

In theory making tomcats anti lib weapons sounds fine, since they help average or new pilots to engage at a distance where dalton one shots happen less often.

But the devs seem to have completly forgotten that a lib is faster than a reversing esf.
So without fuelpods, you have 0 chance to maintain distance ... and while you have to maintain the reverse flight to keep targeting the lib, it just has to burn straight for you until you get close enough for the dalton shell to hit you before you can react.


Overall it feels like tomcats won't have any real use again (except gank squads) ... not that i am sad about tomcats getting the shaft, but it feels like liberators gain much more from this than esfs do.


And while the nosegun dmg resist for esfs seems fine on paper it's a major buff to a2g and not a2a esfs.

For an a2a esf every second spent fighting a lolpodder above a fight (where else would you find a2g esfs to hunt anyways), is a second that you are very vulnerable to any form of AA.

In the end this will help a2g esfs to survive long enough for the ground units to start blasting you out of the sky.
If you guys thought a2g was bad before, prepare your butts^^

Gotcha.

Yeah, I don't understand what role A2AM are supposed to play now. I suppose in Server Smash you can form out A2AM Gank Squads to knock out Gals before they can Gal drop. But that is an extremely narrow and extremely infrequent application for Standard Game.

Making A2AM an anti-Gal and anti-Lib weapon seems silly:
1) there just aren't consistently enough Gal and Lib targets to make it worthwhile, and the XP from killing them is much lower than alternative options.
2) running A2AM removes you from A2G and put you at a big disadvantage in A2A vs. ESFs.
3) can the average pilot use new A2AM vs. Libs without eating a Dalton?
4) if A2AM is too good vs. Libs and Gals, then Lib and Gal players and Hardcore Organized Players are gonna freak out.
5) fully manned A2A Gals can be brutal targets for ESFs. Will these new A2AM make an ESF taking on a fully manned Gal now much more doable? And solo Gals are a (long) cake walk for ESFs, especially if the ESF is running Hornets or Rockets. Is that gonna get harder where A2AM are actually needed?
6) Libs typically run Daltons that OHK ESFs. So the best approach vs. a decent Lib crew is long range Nosegun or run. Will new A2AM work better as a method now? And like Gals, bad Libs are easy to just use Nosegun, Hornet, and Rocket on for the kill.

It' almost as if they're setting up the A2AM to fail. Unless they either:
1) make non-A2AM ESFs have a much harder time to take out Gals or Libs,
2) make A2AM *much* more effective at killing Gals and Libs, and/or
3) or expand the role and accessibility of Gals and Libs in the game so there are *many* more of them around.

Is all this a theoretical possibility, could it all be made to work? Sure... but not by the SOE/DBG I know. Plus it would be totally overhauling the Game to do so, and I don't see the corresponding changes in the game to support this. My money is on DBG just making the Air game more toward Top Pilots.

Did they say Nosegun would do less vs. Gals and Libs? If not, why can't you just use your Nosefun like before?

Yes, Valks will get more Nosegun resistance, but I was already having a randomly hard time with Valks using the repair exploit (stupid DBG). I usually just use Rockets on Valks, or gang up on them with other ESFs, or I just ignore them and fly elsewhere because I don't want to deal with repair exploits, or invuln exploits, etc.

And ESFs getting more resistance is a tossup. It should help Aces proportionately more defensively: even if all players use them, the Ace is the one who is going to be able to mitigate damage the most, so that corresponds to much slower ttk on them. But it also means Aces have to spend more trigger time on each target to take them down. I suppose a lot will depend on how much CA is used.

Was on test server and saw 2 new kinds of fuel tanks/AB, fast recovery up to 170% or greater capacity to 200%, both fun.

Nothing on that list actually needs a buff, they are all great weapons and perform fine.