[Suggestion] Change ESF engagement radar

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Demigan, Oct 25, 2019.

  1. LodeTria

    Engagement radar used to occupy the utility slot, not defence. It competed with Fire Suppression so was never, ever "best in slot".
  2. Pelojian

    making engagement radar go into the defense slot while still being 100% free to players would be good, also should add engagement radar to the default loadout, so newbies don't miss out because they didn't check the defense slot items "because they haven't unlocked anything yet".

    i think it's a bad idea to add auto spot to engagement radar, it'll make it harder for pilots to transition between newbie and relatively experianced if they aren't learning to look out for ground damage sources from the moment they take up the pilots seat.

    remember the biggest problem with new pilots isn't so much ground, it's gank squads in the air that farm the **** out of them.
  3. adamts01

    I'm 100% on board with lessening the performance gap between aces and average pilots. But your solution does the opposite. Whether in the defense or utility slot, engagement radar would be a bottom tier choice. It would barely be missed by vets, yet heavily missed by noobs.

    Let's consider if Engagement radar was free and buffed to the point it auto-spots and completely negates stealth. Vets would either run Fire Suppression in the Utility slot and Composite to replace useless Stealth, and noobs with radar would again be at a huge disadvantage before skill difference was even applied. There's just no instance where Engagement Radar in a slot would lessen the performance gap. Making Fire Suppression free and tying Engagement Radar to Scout Radar might be a thing to lessen the performance gap in air, but that would be an insane buff foitr A2G, which I'm sure we can agree would be bad.
  4. Demigan

    Lets make a few assumptions:

    1: if stealth wasnt useful for veterans they wouldnt use it and equip composite instead. Yet the lionshare uses stealth. Even Daddy, exploiteur extreme and probably the most potent air player overall the game has seen, ran it. Its entire outfit that spawned it also uses it still. So the first assumption has to be that veterans DO benefit from engagement radar and they WOULD miss it.
    Veterans would run anything but stealth if they didnt need it. A newb wouldnt have the skill to beat them and a veteran would find them anyway. The choice to almost universally use stealth proves that veterans are benefitting from engagement radar when it is active and have an advantage over other veterans by shutting it off.

    2: the current situation is as follows.
    - veterans have engagement radar versus the newbs plus stealth.
    - newbs would have a largely ineffective engagement radar and no stealth making them easy targets and highlighting their newb status.

    In the new system it would be as follows:
    - if a veteran choses engagement radar he's visible to the newb.
    - if the veteran choses stealth then the newb is almost as invisible as the veteran.
    - the newb will be almost as visible or invisible to the veteran based on that veteran's pick.

    So the end result is that the difference between the newb and veteran is smaller.
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  5. Demigan

    I was too late to edit. Stealth isnt useless, in fact before engagement radar I was one of the few who used it and it was absolutely wonderful to fly low, sneak up on those reverse maneuvering vets (especially before it became mainstream) and blast them to oblivion with a rotary. I even managed to kill Daddy a bunch of times BECAUSE stealth wasnt used by everyone and for some reason everyone flew like the ground could kill you if you got within 100m of it while cruising. Just like with vehicles the advantage of stealth isnt in its direct combat capabilities but what it indirectly gets you.

    But again, not auto-granting engagement means that the vets will not have engagment on if they pick stealth, which is an advantage for newbs over having veterans with both on simultaneously while negating the one used by newbs.
  6. LodeTria

    Which daddy are you talking about here? PaffDaddy? Cus he's on cobalt and you're on miller.
  7. adamts01

    That "useless stealth" comment was only if the super radar I mentioned were implemented. Maybe I worded everything poorly. Stealth is currently meta.

    My point is that Engagement Radar will always be an inferior choice. So you're basically taking it away from everyone. You're taking away something that benefits New players more than vets, which in effect widens the performance gap.

    Your other argument is that new pilots don't have certed ESF, so a free Engagement Radar would help. True, but after a single hour they could have level 2 FS and level 2 Composite, both of which would be better choices than Engagement Radar.
  8. InexoraVC

    Very good article here https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1083948549 ESF Top Gun Guide (Everything about ESFs)

    Few words from that article:

    Vehicle Stealth has always been a decent choice, but ever since all ESFs got engagement radar by default, the usefulness of stealth shot to peak levels. With this equipped, you have to be spotted manually to show up on anyone's radar, and for anyone not paying enough attention to their surroundings or relying too much on their radar for help, this provides a great way to sneak up for the kill.

  9. Demigan

    Daddy as in the original Daddy who deleted his account at some point. You've never heard of Daddy?

    ok that's clear.

    You are assuming that everything will somehow remain the exact perfect same.

    We know Engagement Radar is valuable because it makes Stealth so valuable.
    If all Veterans switch to stealth and don't equip Engagement, then only Newbs have Engagement radar. In effect the Newbs will only be a little bit behind as they still show up on the minimap while the Veterans don't. Compared to right now where the Newbs show up on the minimap and the Engagement Radar for the Vets but the Vets don't. That in itself is already a huge leap forwards over what we have now as it effectively removes Engagement Radar from Veterans but not Newbies.
    If you equip stealth you likely lose out against another Veteran who equips Composite armor for 10% more health.
    Those who equip Composite Armor would lose out to Vets who can detect them and sneak up on them with Engagement Radar.
    Those who equip Engagement Radar lose out to those with Stealth... Etc.
    I'm assuming the vets all have similar skill.

    Engagement Radar has shown us that powerful detection and detection avoidance are much more useful than plain Composite Armor. However those who equip stealth have only the Minimap as an early warning of opposing Engagement Radar or Composite using ESF, putting a Composite and Stealth ESF much closer to each other in terms of detection but with the Composite ESF having more health.
    Since a Veteran doesn't have to fear Newbies with Engagement Radar, what reason is there to use Stealth? Not much anymore unless there are enough Veterans who still do pull Engagement Radar.

    No matter which way you turn, it is likely that there will be a larger group of people pulling either Composite or Engagement Radar over Stealth, making it more likely that a Newb can detect and see the Veterans.
    If everyone still keeps pulling Stealth, then the Newbs will still win as they won't be as easily tracked by Veterans.

    Early on the Newbs have more to gain from Engagement Radar as it warns them and gives them an idea what the opposing Vets are doing and give them a small handhold to learn those techniques. For those who can't be detected because of stealth also lose the ability to track down Newbies as they've lost Engagement Radar.

    No matter how many times I look at this, no matter how I write it down, the end result is the same: Newbies have it easier in the air. Hell even if what you say is true and Composite is better for them then they would still benefit since they wouldn't be detected rightaway by veterans.
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