Can we finally all agree on removing SMGs for infiltrators ?

If i could, i would have prefixed this thread by "mad man debate" but I honestly think that and have been for a long time.
A few things to clear up first :
- I dont think SMG infils are extremely OP (just a bit), the problem is somewhere else.
- I don't think all classes should have a CQC DPS role.
- I play lots of infils these days and I love it, but not with a SMG.


So, this cleared up, why am I saying something so controversial, yet, so brave ?

I think that SMG infils are frustrating for everyone but them. The same can be said about a LOT of weapon/class/vehicle but still, hear me out. Over the years, i put PS2 into the hands of many peoples, and the one complaint they all agreed on which made them quit the game, was the infil smg. Claymores, vehicles, HA, even shotguns you can manage by outplaying them/playing intelligent. But infil SMG is one of the best cqc ttk of the game usually, and can be litterally sitting on you before you know it, killing you in less than a second. It's one of the most frustrating things in the game because in the heat of the battle, the subtle sounds and cloak can be easily missed, while the infiltrator just has to look around to be sure he wont get destroyed right after his cheap kill. You can kill an infil smg easily if you see him, no worries, if you don't you'll die, and the conditions are not there for him to be seen. I can go on killstreaks with my standard cloak and a secundary weapon, i don't even want to try and find out what i could do with an smg. It's unbalanced, and above all, litterally is one of the main reasons people quit the game (technically, the cloak+short range kill would be but smg is one of the most used cloak short range kill).

As I said, i'm not all for infiltrator having good capacities at short range, it shouldn't be used as a damage dealer. Its abilities should stay in the long range kills, the hacking, etc.

What could be done to "replace" this ability for the infiltrator :
- Making it overload generators/cap points faster.
- Making it protect the points it captured so that you need at least 2 people to retake it. (for example)
- Making it able to hack sunderer/galaxy terminals.
- Making it able to hack tank mines.
- Making it able to hack jump pads.

Lots of things that don't have to do with killing peopke in .52 seconds

An infiltrator is supposed to infiltrate, not 1v4 some poor guys that are already fighting with someone else.

Short answer to your question: No, also it's not really a 'mad man debate' as these posts are dime-a-dozen.

Long answer:

I can understand that it may seem frustrating to you to die to a cloaker with an SMG, but let's be honest here. Dying in a videogame is not fun. LA with a shotgun, HA with a point-blank rocket launcher, ESF's, HESH tanks, etc.

I put PS2 in the hands of many people too that ended up quitting, their main complaint? Heavies. Across the board. But frankly, they're speaking out of frustrations rather than experience. Same for the people you introduced PS2 to.

The same TTK can be achieved using other means, such as shotguns or LMGS/assault rifles. This entire game is based around the same TTK. Now again, I understand you're speaking from frustration but we cannot start nerfing classes just because they're frustrating in your eyes. Else we wouldn't have combined arms in Planetside2. Or really anything but a COD shooter.

That's the whole point of the infiltrators, it's an infantry killing class with high-risk/high-reward gameplay with 0 counters to any sort of vehicles.

Most weapons have a downside, that of an SMG is straight up range. You can throw bullets harder and farther than an SMG. So the whole idea of it is to make sure that said infiltrators with SMGs do not get close to you. Which can be done with area of denial such as mines, barriers, turrets, holding an angle, increasing awareness of yourself and using darts.

Again, we understand your frustrations. But please remain objective.

They are infiltrators, they are your anti-infantry DPS class. They ARE the damage dealer, along with Light assault.

As for long range, people are still going to complain (they always are) even if infiltrators were just sniping in the game. Even then in PS2 sniping doesn't hold much value regardless, nor is it very practical. (no-head bug, ranges beyond 500m being scuffed, etc)

Also 'hacking' in the game is a gimmick at best, it doesn't get used a whole lot except for hacking a terminal and pulling a sundy.

1 - This will likely annoy 'veterans' even more because of ghost capping potential.
2 - It's not really a point-hold class, but i can somewhat see what you intend to do.
3 - It will take approx; 0.51 seconds for someone to call for a nerf if that ever made it to live PS2, as more reasons to kill off fights is generally not appreciated by the community.
4 - Interesting, but also very niche
5 - This, sounds a lot more fun but most jump pads are universal with only a few mainly in towers who are faction specific to the one that hold the base.

All of planetside weapons are based around the same TTK, and yes and infiltrator infiltrates your backline and eliminates targets of opportunity, that's the class's entire shtick and I'm afraid "poor guys that are already fighting with someone else" is also not really an argument since we're playing an MMOFPS here. You're bound to get shot from all directions, if you don't want that, get in cover, and most importantly cover your flanks and don't tunnel-vision on enemies in front of you.

To sum it up:
- "People quit because XYZ" is subjective at best, and there's no data to back that up.
- There's so many low-TTK weapons out there, including vehicles. SMGs don't even have that low a TTK.
- SMGs also have absolutely no range.
- If you see the infil, he's basically a free kill.
- "Frustrations" and in general "feeling like it's OP" is not really an argument, or grounds for nerf calling.
- Long range isn't as viable as you think, and hacking is a situational gimmick at best.
- Infiltrators are made to be Anti-infantry, as they have 0 counters to vehicles.
- "I'm shooting someone else" Is also not an argument in an MMOFPS.. Or in an FPS in general.
- Raise your awareness, seek cover, cover your flanks, use area of denial.
- Don't let frustrations dictate your game, or forums posts.

"Can we finally all agree on removing SMGs for infiltrators ?"


short answer: no

and no i´m not an infil main ...


you want DBG to fix the damn decloakperiod

what would also be neat for medics and MAXs to have recontools, too
like why is it that the class who can attack from range and cloak is the only class to use recontools? and the one countermeasure against it is a giant not even properly working "shoot me" sign of a torchlight

Interesting answer, but I said I don't feel like smg infils are that OP, I kill them a lot actually and i'd say more than they get me.

The problem is really subjective, for sure, but it's a point to consider still : It create frustration and makes people leave the game.
It's just frustrating to play against, and makes the game less fun overall. Heavies on the other hand are the go to class for most people, so it's normal to see them over represented thanks to their versatility. But you can spot a heavy from afar, he's slow and glowing with his shield, etc. All this makes it easier for people to drop him and it's also normal for a heavy to win most 1v1, after all he's built to. You could say the same about the infiltrator, but my point for it is only that it creates frustration and a feeling of lack of balance. I can die 3 times to a heavy no problem, i also can work around him with superior mobility or better aim, but you just can't kill something you didn't see and even with the best situationnal awareness, sometimes an infiltrator doing nothing will just have the drop on you because you couldn't see him (hossin...). That's frustrating, not because he will always win but because when he does you feel robbed and that nothing you could do could have changed the outcome, and that you had no time to react.

I'm concerned about the game and keeping new people coming to play, and seeing this (just as scatmaxes, or mustangs to name a few) makes it hard to convince people to stay. Over the years, i brought maybe 15-20 people to this game and i'm the only one playing it still. If half the people had stayed, imagine what it could have given the community over the time ?

Also to consider : If posts against smg infils are so prevalent, doesn't it mean that there's a general feeling against it ? We should consider that too. I was there when they added smgs to the game, before that infils had a few options for medium range but nothing on short. They wanted to sell smgs, so they put it on every class. I'm still surprised they didn't give them the shotguns too when these where introduced.

This is an old mistake but it's been a problem since the first day it appeared, and it wasn't in the game forever.

It's mistakes like these that create conditions for people to leave the game and not return. You play 3 minutes, get ganked by someone playing smg infil and go like "how am i supposed to deal with that ? this is dumb."

All other threats you can see/hear coming but this one.

And again for the record : It's not a personnal vendetta against smg infils but we shouldn't as a community consider that such a toxic playstyle is ok : It hurts beginners a lot, and a lot more i'd say than vehicles/maxes.

not quite when it comes to connection/lagissues the player has no impact on
and then stuff like hitregistration ... you may see that you hit your opponent yet for some reason you die too, or first even ... maybe because the opponent on his end saw you first ... this can happen with any class theoretically but it gets worse with the infil when he is able to immidiatly shot after decloaking .. so under circumstantcen the affected player wasn´t even able to hear the infil decloaking, or heard it but already died ..

and this is an issue that has plagued the game for yrears

couldn´t finish:
the problem here though is not that the infil has an smg .. the problem is the responsetime other players have that comes to the infil decloaking in their face and immidiatly firing ... the same can still be true for an infil sniper or scoutrifle infil ...

Then how come the frustrations?

People leave the game for variety of reasons:
- The game has been on life support for x amount of years before it got a small development team.
- They introduced new mechanics and gadgets such as implants and utility/tactical slot gear that have created problems.
- Construction is pretty much dead content at this point.
- ESFs, Liberators, Hesh, Heavies, C4 Fairies, Shotguns, etc..
- Nerfing things into the ground to a point where they become obsolete (Adrenaline shield, Nano-armor cloaking, HLX Crossbow and Powerknifes)
- Ad infinitum..

The point is, people leave for a lot of reasons some understandable and some not so much. You can leave because there's barely any development, but if you hold a grudge that revolves around a specific class that people (not saying you do) refuse to counter, or don't understand how to than frankly it's not on that class.

For you, yes. Again, a very subjective opinion. People don't like Point-blank shotguns and rocket-launchers either, or ESFs or any of the things I mentioned above.

Yes they are, and that's a problem. Heavies have been the 'meta' for eons now, there's a reason as why most sweaty/salty veterans play them. Mainly because they have some of the overall strongest guns, that are good across the board in terms of range, accuracy, damage, and ROF. However as Infils? Forget it, to a point where if you play as Infil or LA, you're considered to be weighing down the squad.

A Heavy can turn around and in the same nanosecond activate his 450 HP shield, that instantly gives him an edge over you. No matter where or how you engage him. Unless, you one-shot him, or have enough firepower to burn through the should before he turns around and decks you. Any frontal assault on them is straight up a loss.

Infiltrators are indeed build to go 1v1, they are supposed to be the infantry-killing class. They have 0 answers to any sort of vehicles for that reason. They are the ones that will punish you for your mistakes as infantry.

And that is why people get frustrated by Infiltrators, they punish mistakes. You got your rear towards an entrance that isn'\t being watched? Dead. You decide to only focus on enemies in front of you? Dead. You don't get into cover? Dead.

They're designed to take opportunity kills, they wait for to slip up, and yes this may feel frustrating but it's a reminder that there's still areas people can improve upon. In a squad setting I never die to Infils, because we play as a cohesive unit, we don't play alone and end up dying to an Infil. Infils punish lonewolves/selfish/farming players.

Can you though? If it's just you VS the Heavy in the same skill bracket, the Heavy will win by default because the press of their magic button gives them an instant 450 HP over you. In a game where TTK is everything, and balances around 1000 HP -> 0 HP. This means that they effectively 1.5x times your TTK to them.

You have to catch Heavies off-guard with their shields down or reloading to counter them, and who does that? Infiltrators. It's why you see a lot of Heavy mains/salty vets always complaining about Infiltrators.

No, but you can know where they are. And infiltrators, especially those running SMG have to get close. And close-range cloaks are VERY visible. They're more of a negative than a positive at times, as getting spotted whilst getting close as SMG infil = guaranteed death.

Thing is, there is a lot people can do to change the outcome. And there's a lot of time to react. People just don't do it.
Because most often than not, they feel like entitled to a point where they should be able to beat them without countering em.

Again:

- Area of denial.
- Awareness.
- Not tunnelvisioning.
- Take cover.
- Darklights
- Recon darts.

It feels like there's nothing you could do/no time to react/ no counter, keyword is 'feels like' because they catch you with your pants down. They catch you when you screw up, and punish you. There are counters, you do have time, and there's plenty of things you could do to prevent it, but didn't thus you die.

I understand this, however this is also a very common and debunked argument used to justify nerfs.

The 'new player experience' is very subjective. Again, I had plenty of people trying out the game leaving because of Heavies, ESFs, shotguns and the like. Besides we unfortunately do not get a whole lot of new players, and there's no credible metric that SMG infiltrators are the cause for leaving, as I've said before people leave for A LOT of reasons.

Not to mention, that new players are prone to get killed by infiltrators as again, they exist to punish infantry for mistakes. And frankly, with some of the people I've seen? This is also 'veterans' btw, they really really have no right to say anything when I'm killing their team 2m from them and they still continue to not pay attention. The situational awareness of Planetside players, is really bad versus other competitive FPS games.

And lack of situational awareness, is not grounds for any sort of nerf.

I'm gonna be real with you, most of those posts are 'salty veterans' with the awareness of a undercooked potato. With a hefty emphasis on salty, they rater complain on the forums, Reddit, other media and rage-telling/rage-yelling in-game than improve, or even consider the notion of countering the infil, because:

- They feel entitled, like they shouldn't have to deal with them
- They feel too good to deal with them.
- They feel like they have 'nerf' their loadout (by that I mean equipping a darklight on their secondary)
- Rule #1 Planetside: Everything I get killed by is OP.

Whilst really, it's just them getting caught with their pants down and being reminded: "Hey, you're not as good as you think you are. Just because you have a 3.0 KD farming newbies with an LMG and overshield, doesn't mean you're invulnerable. Now keep calm and respawn, whilst you take some time to think about your situational awareness."

This annoys them, and thus some of those salty vets rush to the forums to post with the exact same arguments.

If you were there when they added SMGs, you know how crappy they were and underused. To a degree, they still have worse range than a one-shot shotgun.

Their posts, is also part of the reasons why a lot of players just don't bother with the forums. Or Reddit. Or in-game chat.
It's incredibly toxic, and I'm just glad you're very approachable about your frustrations.

However you have to understand why I call these posts 'dime-a-dozen' because of those people that ruin it for others.

You think that going around a corner to get Deci'd by a Heavy isn't grounds for "how am i supposed to deal with that ? this is dumb."? Or walking around suddenly an Ambush LA flies into your face with a shotty? Or say go in a building and getting scattermaxed to death? Or trying to get back to the frontline and being instantly deleted by an ESF or Hesh AOE tank who sitting on a hill farming respawns?

Nothing about SMG infils is a "Toxic playerstyle". What we shouldn't be condoning as community are those salty people that start yelling obscenities in yell-chat, or whisper/tell someone in-game or go on the forums, and write a paragraph on how the thing you just died to is considered OP. (Again, not saying you do this. But the majority on here, does.)

"But Sumowning, isn't that a whataboutism?" - No, it's just the reality of the game we play. It's an MMOFPS, where 300+ people can be in a base, there's literally 100+ ways to die out there. Of course some are going to feel unfair until you learn how to counter them, both as newbie and veteran.

The beauty of this game is that you can play the way you want to play, and be effective in one way or another.

You just gotta accept your death, 'take the L' as some would say, keep calm and respawn, and do better next life.

By fix, I assume you mean increasing it? Which is calling for a nerf.
Despite the problem lying with the fact Clientside is a thing for everything and everyone.

Everybody talks about the 'decloak' and nobody talks about the 'recloak' also suffering from the exact same thing.
The amount of times I died after cloaking, because I bet on their screen I was still very much visible.

Hell, I'm sure I've killed plenty Infiltrators that already cloaked on their screen but weren't on mine and I still killed em.

The darklight works. A few years ago when it was actually bugged, you might've had a point there.

As for introducing recon tools to other classes, I'm not against it. But I highly doubt it will increase people's situational awareness, as they just wanna shoot what's in front of them. So in the end it'll just lead to the same old complaining.

Again, nerf-calling on ground of clientside?

Clientside has been around for eons, let me tell you it isn't as bad as you might think.
I've played other MMOs and we should be considered lucky xD

Same thing, with Ambusher jets. Most of the time, you're already dead before the LA even lands near you, because clientside. Or a Heavy whipping out his Deci and one-shotting you in the face around a corner.

Please, networking issues =/= class issues.

with unsolveable networkissues the change has to be made on the class

They're not unsolvable at all, besides network issues affect every class positively and negatively.
You'd have to change em all, if that would be the case.

See:

they affect infils THE MOST, THAT is the point ..
and no you´d not have to change every class in that regard

right, clearly you have the understanding and insight how to fix networking issues with thausands of players pretty much accross the globe miles appart from the servers they access for their gamessessions ...

oh please let me hear your simple and costeffective solution ... i´m all ears ... eyes rather ...

Does it though? I have made a point before, and I'll reiterate that one:

LA with Ambusher jets. Most of the time, you're already dead before the LA even lands near you, because clientside. Or a Heavy whipping out his Deci and one-shotting you in the face around a corner. Engi turrets shooting at me a good 2 seconds after cloak, or hacking it and even then still firing a shot at me 3 seconds after. Or let's say, you redeploy into a galaxy/valkery and fall to your death, that's straight up network lag no realizing you are in a vehicle.

I've died a full 2 seconds after I was in full-cover of a container by a scatter MAX on the other side.

The reason why it doesn't affect something like say.. A Heavy Overshield, is because a Heavy overshield has no delay.

I've died a full 2 seconds after I was in full-cover of a container by a scatter MAX on the other side.

The only thing it affects on an infil is the cloak, both negatively and positively. Much like any other aforementioned issue, at times it helps in other times it screws you over.

The issue arises when people hyper-fixate on that time they died not hearing the cloak before getting shot, and then wanting it getting nerfed. Should we nerf all those other aforementioned classes that benefit from network issues? No. That's silly.

You can't treat the symptom, and only 1 symptom of an issue just because you have a particular annoyance towards it and therefor punishing a class with a unjustified nerf, despite the class suffering from the same pros/cons from bad ping as the rest.

Well, actually yes. I do. I work in IT, and networking is included on my resume, so I indeed have an understanding of how to create, maintain and fix networking between thousands of clients.

However to accomplish that, I'd have to have a much more detailed map of the network and since I'm in fact not an employee at DBG, I simply don't have access to that. Nor can it be very cost effective, because realistically IT is an expense and naturally companies will minimize this.

Regardless of that, there's a few things you can do to minimize the impact it has on end-users. Or rather, things you shouldn't do. Such as.. Shutting down regional servers, as this will result in those users going on other less effective servers, which has already happened, and hence why there's such an upsurge in network related issues atm.

1. Extra users means more loadbearing on other servers.
2. Extra users with higher ping, naturally causing more complaints.

In this case, money was chosen over ease of use of the end-user and that's not something any IT personal can fix as that is done by higher-ups who again, see IT/networking as just an expense.

So the only thing people can really do, is ask for region lock and bringing back other regional server to take the load off.

regionlock with as low as the general playerbase is? no, that´s not gonna work out, at worst you would kill off already small populations even if you were to add new servers (i mean people ask for server MERGERS which is the total opposite of what you are sugggesting)..

annnd no .. it´s not the only thing people can realy do, they can ask RPG to mitigate the issues of the infil decloak period ..
RPG can be willing to actualy do something about it that doesn´t include walling/potentionaly killing off populations for better networkstability .. i mean if people keep being pissed off about it they as well may choose to leave (and already did so) .. in which case you will have less players/targets willing to keep up with the broken infil scrap ... inclusion of regionlock may likely cause the same ...

People ask for server mergers, because of population reasons. Which again, is fair. But they don't know the impact it'll have on server performance. Because the servers stay the same, just the pop doesn't.

"annnd no .. it´s not the only thing people can realy do, they can ask RPG to mitigate the issues of the infil decloak period .."

Right, and the LA/Ambusher. And the Heavy, and the engineer, and the medic.. and the etc..
See where I'm going with this?

You can't start balancing classes around a network problem, you'll get Elder Scrolls Online levels of BS.

So instead we should be punishing populations of Infiltrators for an issue that is not always in effect, an issue that is but a symptom of a bigger problem, a problem which affect other classes/weapons than just Infils but people rather not acknowledge that.

There's nothing broken about Infils, there's a broken part in the network system, or in the way it's handled.

You're not incorrect about the regionlock causing issues, however it actually addresses the overarching problem rather than punishing a playstyle for something that is not on them. Something that plagues other classes as well, both good and bad.

Another option would be beefing up the servers, and/or optimizing the network infrastructure. Which I'm not sure to what degree it can be optimized, as I don't work there.

is a bit funny when most people complain about infils than pretty much any other class when it comes to said networkissues

if you want to call it punishing infilltrators, i call it giving every other player (recieving infils included) a fair enough chance to react to a decloaking infil ...

there obviously is a problem with the network but appearantly RPG don´t seem to be capable/having the resources/be willing to solve the Network issues thus going for a low hanging fruit approach may offer quick results ... .. you know stuff that is easier to revert than hardwarerelated actions ...

It has the easiest visually/auditory indicator out of all classes.
Infil shoots you in the head, audio/visual are delayed and not in sync..
Heavy shoots you in the head, no audio and the visual is him popping round the corner a split second later than normal.

Both happen in that split second moment, one is more visually/auditory distinct that any other class.

People normally just accept this as clientside and move on unless it's very egregious, like me for example with the scattermax I was referring to. A whole 2 second in the middle behind a container and I got killed with the death cam pointing literally on the other side of this container, at that point it's very obvious.

Also, I have to say it. There's a bit of a bias against Infils in general, this is nothing new. So it doesn't surprise me if some just use the network issues as thinly veiled attempt at getting a nerf for the class/weapon they dislike.

I do, you'd be punishing a whole class for a symptom that's causing issue. This symptom is part of a problem, which again is networking, which affects everyone both negatively and positively.

There's always an issue of how you perceive the issue, you'll only ever see the negatives.

You can have 99 victories, but only be remembered for that 1 defeat.
You can have 99 kills, but you'll only remember that 1 death.

You might've killed someone in the same manner, that would've made question: Clientside?
Most just ignore this and move on, some don't.

There's plenty a time reacting to an infil decloaking, however network issue might screw with this. Same way it screws with peeker's advantage on all classes. Because really that's what it is. Difference being that with peeker's advantages you have better reaction time and can shoot faster, it's why people don't like around-the-corner-shotguns.

That's an even bigger problem, how many times have you not enjoyed a mechanic/weapon/class in the game. Only for DBG to choose the "low hanging fruit approach" and making said mechanic/weapon/class obsolete?

We really really want to encourage this?

Take a look at the HLX crossbow, it was overtuned and then got that same approach and now it's a meme weapon. Or the most egregious example being the Powerknife, which is now basically obsolete.

With a lot of problems they've taken the easy route and it ended up with them losing a good chunk of players, because those players and I know you do too and everyone else playing PS2, know one thing and it's the following:

^That this part rarely, if ever happens. They don't revert things that are under-powered.

Which is exactly why some weapons are still refereed to as meme weapons, and in the rare occasion that they do bring back obsolete weapons to a playable state. It takes YEARS, for them to do so. And by then they've already lost those who invested themselves in the mechanic/weapon/class.

Why do you think the crossbow hasn't been touched since ages? The last time I've see someone using it, was like 6 months ago. Or Powerknifes for that matter, ever since the arsenal update. (the arsenal update being one of those rare exceptions where they actually revived a bunch of obsolete weaponry)

So let's not go down that route, because again this will result in all class needing a nerf to compensate for network issues. That's not going to be pretty.

No we cannot agree on that.

1. When Infiltrator is not using SMGs, who else will? Every other class has better automatic options that simply have that one advantage SMGs sorely lack: range.
2. The problem aren't SMGs, it's the decloak synchronization. I am frustrated too when a Infiltrator bolts me while still decloacking on my screen. Fix this and SMGs aren't so problematic anymore.
3. It takes a lot of skill and risk to get yourself into a position, where SMGs truly outclass other weapons. Look at it from that POV: where is a SMG the strongest? CQC? You got overbuffed shotgunts against you. Mid-Range? Any Carbine and Assault rifle will outdamage you? Long range? What? Ever seen the pathetic range on a SMG? SMGs are never best. They just serve a very specific purpose: get behind enemy lines and guerilla tactic your way around enemies.

I have many hours on my Infiltrator and the amount of times I go "good thing I got an SMG to duel that Heavy/Medic/LA" is far behind the amount of times I was pissed off because I lost the DPS battle or got spotted too early for my SMG to really shine.

Maybe the problem here is also what smgs can do : In a game where litterally any weapon give you the same mobility and jump height, 90% of what they're supposed to be good at is gone.
I agree with the decloak problem, even though the problem is the same with shotguns and corner and is about the hit detection.

But you could remove SMGS from infils and still make them playable, if were added to the game weight categories for weapons, with smgs being just above handguns in this, giving them the best running speed, walking speed, and ADS speed, and a better jump height than other weapons, and of course at the other end of the spectrum you would get LMGS and heavy weapons, with which heavies couldn't jump high, and would move slower.

Using a smg would be a tactical choice then and the range problem would be the downside of an otherwise extremely mobile weapon. SMG were created in the spirit of having light weapons for CQC that would help the wielder be mobile, and i'm talking real life here, and we could borrow from that.

And of course, fixing the cloak for infiltrators would help here : A good infil right now can kill people even with a handgun, if he surprises them, so a SMG is overkill and gives a feeling of unbalance

I always felt like this was more of an issue than anything, there's almost no reason to use SMGs to begin with on any other class other than Infiltrators as V193R described. I'd love for them to add a movement speed buff/jump height buff/penalties to weapons.

Honestly, right now fighting a heavy feels like I'm playing a CoD game. Fighting as one, even more so. LMGs are supposed to be used to suppress the enemy. In PS2, it's literally just a beefed up Assault rifle with a bottomless well, and strangely low reload time for some.

I am happy to see people acknowledge this tbh, it's not so much the cloak. it's the desync across the server as a whole. Shotguns, Deci's, and generally weapon functions this way.

Sounds good, but the question remains: Why remove the CQC weapon from Infiltators? It's the whole point of an infil to be mobile, and it would fit perfectly.

Correct, I think having the range be the downside is good. It's more the issue of that every other weapon seem to have very little to no downsides. In fact the NS-15 LMG has more range, more damage, and a larger mag, and for some reason A LOWER reload speed than an SMG, which to me is mind boggling.

Unfortunately a lot of people's idea of 'fixing' the cloak, is to nerf it. Which doesn't resolve any of the other issues, nor is it fair to nerf an otherwise balanced ability because of network lag. Which is an issue, but an inconsistent one.

Not to mention, yeah you can kill people with a handgun. If you have Stalker on. But those are not mobile.

With this same logic, you can say: Why give Heavies shotguns, when they have LMGS? It gives a feeling of unbalance? The argument there is very subjective as to what 'a feeling of unbalance' actually entails, and also doesn't hold much ground as you can apply that to any other class.

There's nothing wrong with SMGs, or the combination of an SMG and an infi. They're made for eachother.

I'd rather see them get rid of the bolting part that seems to agitate people, and maybe just have snipers with 6x or higher instead. At that point it become shard to bolt, and it's more of an actual sniper rifle.