[Suggestion] Can TR Have Our Trait Back?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by QuantumSerpent, Dec 28, 2014.

  1. Auzor

    800-125 isn't so good actually.. see the cycler TRV: 845 RPM, 143 dmg.

    Nc cyclone is 167 yes.
    vs Eridani is 143.
    So, only 1 damage tier.
    • Up x 1
  2. m3talc0re

    • Up x 3
  3. QuantumSerpent

    I'm not saying buff the TR--that's why we modify the other stats to maintain the same DPS and DPM. How many times have I said that in this thread? A dozen?

    What I'm saying is that TR's trait is not especially evident across the board, and it should be. No non-situational advantages would be gained from this. The end result would make TR weaker in a direct, nonmobile fight and stronger in a harassing mobile engagement.
    • Up x 1
  4. QuantumSerpent

    Hypothetical gun. I set the numbers to something easy to calculate.

    Even that one damage tier is still a 16.8% increase, more than the RoF boost TR weapons get in general.
  5. TriumphantJelly

    Unfortunately, many players could find this uncomfortable and be irritated.
    • Up x 1
  6. QuantumSerpent

    Most TR players or most non-TR players?

    Anyway, if I wanted an always-fair TDM, PS2 isn't the game to play. PS2 is (supposed to be) a semi-tactical team-based FPS. And where tactics comes into play...
    "He who chooses the battlefield wins the battle."

    As a TR, I don't care about being weak in a given situation as long as I'm equally strong in another. That way I have to choose how to approach a battle instead of just blindly rushing in.
    • Up x 1
  7. TriumphantJelly

    Well you'd likely get a group of people, using TR weapons, crying about the higher 1 Versus 1 TTK.
  8. QuantumSerpent

    So they can learn to use mobility to their advantage.

    With a very low penalty for a single missed shot, you can rush into a room, staying mobile and spraying, and likely win against high-miss-penalty NC/VS weapons. Or in the open, you can raid around the outskirts.
    • Up x 2
  9. ATRA_Wampa-One

    Yeah, this... but it's important to remember that this really only applies to AR's, Carbines, and first gen SMG's which is fine as the LMG's across all factions are mostly balanced outside of the T-16, Pulsar LSW, and Flare, and Ursa.

    TR's faction trait is average DPS but above average DPM so they are punished less for missed shots since their higher than average rate of fire means you can make up those missed shots faster. NC have average DPS / DPM but are punished slightly more for missing shots because of lower ROF but higher bullet damage. VS have average DPS, below average DPM and are punished the most for missing shots since having to reload or switch weapons to finish someone off takes drastically longer than simply making up a missed shot with a higher than average or even average DPM weapon... but hey no bullet drop in a game were bullet drop doesn't matter right?
  10. Auzor

    I'm about to rock your world.

    600 rpm- 167 dmg is a pretty common "NC trait", yes? (starter medic guns)
    750 rpm- 143 for TR.
    750/600= 1.25

    Hmm... seems like you rather cherrypicked some examples.
    Specifically, you selected one gun for damage, and another for RoF. Bad QuantumSerpent!

    Starter AR's again. (although, applies to starter carbines too ofc)

    TTK within 10m:
    first shot is fired at "0", so 167 needs 5 more bullets; 143 needs 6 more.
    167 dmg gun: 0.5s TTK.
    143: 0.48.

    Let's try 11m. (both need one extra bullet.. gamemechanics rofl)
    0.6s TTK.
    0.56s TTK.

    Back to within 10m, nanoweave max rank. (20% resistance; 1000/0.8=1250 dmg needed).
    167 needs 6+2 shots.
    0.8s TTK.
    143 needs 7+2shots.
    0.72s TTK.

    a lot of fighting happens at close ranges (see : biolab..)

    Now, the only real "NC-close range" weapon is the cyclone; 652 rpm, 167 dmg. Higher rpm for short range, less accuracy at range.
    TR smg: armistice. 896 rpm, 125 dmg.
    Cyclone TTK: 1/652*60*5=0.46s.
    Armistice: 1/896*60*7=0.46875s. Less than 1/100 advantage.

    What if we need one more bullet? What if we include nanoweave? well, then the advantage shifts.

    But hang on. The cyclone is the quickest "NC-style killer". Armistice however isn't the "top" for TR.
    TR: Cycler TRV. 845 rpm, 143 dmg.
    What's this? Faster than the "OP" cyclone? Stop the presses!
    (and yes, the cyclone is very, very good for an SMG)

    --> TR-style weapons are the best CQC weapons.
    If you want to remove the GD-7-F and similars, NC needs far more "cyclone style" weapons, with a TTK equal (at least similar) to cycler TRV.
    5*60/0.43= 697.7 rpm. Even this might not be enough, because cycler TRV still wins against nanoweave or at 11m, or in case of 1 miss.
    Be my guest. Are you ready for that trade-off? That NC gets actual "NC close range" weaponry?

    NC needs close range weaponry, because so much fighting takes place at close ranges.
    TR are not getting screwed with "845 rpm" weapons, you're getting screwed in the "652 rpm" department, supposedly your midrange weapons.

    Oh, btw,
    you won't be needing those silly high damage side-arms, like the revolvers, the crossbow,
    weaponry like the halberd and dalton cannon,.. ?
    High damage per shot are NC traits after all..
    • Up x 1
  11. QuantumSerpent

    I compared the maximums because the maximum exemplifies the faction trait. Looking at assault rifles, say we compared 125/857 to 200/555. The results? 154% (RoF) to 160% (damage).

    I'd love if NC had more Cyclone weapons. The Cyclone is a perfect example of an NC weapon: slow but hard-hitting. I'm not one of the people that complains about Cyclones (though I would like a TR equivalent at say, 112/972).

    While I do like having a crossbow, I am in favor of maximum faction diversity, so go ahead, take away my crossbow. But hey, keeping in mind that if I lose my crossbow, I get a 972 RPM SMG... I'd call that a fair trade.
  12. Auzor

    Is that the Torq vs the Reaper?
    200/125=1.6, yes.
    however, I'm not aware of any NC weapon that has 200 dmg, and 555 rpm. (or any weapon with 555 rpm..VS has an LMG with 550, TR& NC a carbine, the Razor & Cougar)
    TR advantage... if that is how you want to see which faction has an advantage..

    Just to expand:
    a "cyclone" assault rifle, comparable in TTK to the cycler TRV would need some interesting mechanics to prevent it from being overly powerfull at range.
    Only solution that pops into mind is horizontal recoil; that and probably reduced muzzle velocity. high bloom is an issue for players that don't burst, so...
    (and First shot recoil is already rather high for NC weapons I thought, due to the high base vertical recoil)

    972 rpm, 112 dmg: again, not very impressive I think.
    The game engine apparently has issues with High RoF weapons; hence why nearly all weapons have RoF below 900 rpm. Although perhaps this has been improved.
    Don't forget, SMG's drop quite a few damage tiers. So at range, you'd be looking at 15 bullets to kill or something.

    the NC do have another "cyclone style" weapon; the Bandit carbine, which I completely forgot about.
    It has 632 rpm, 167 dmg; so higher than the "600 rpm, 167 dmg" baseline from LMG's.
    However, for DPS & TTK it is completely obliterated by the GD-7-F; 845 rpm, so over 200 rpm higher; versus needing one more bullet to kill. Just to pour some salt in the wound, it also has higher muzzle velocity. (which doesn't really matter for close range weapons, but still..)
    845/750= 1.1267. 12-13% dps & TTK advantage.
    632/600=1.053. 5.3% dps & TTK advantage. Ahem.. quite a difference in specialization level. Note that 143 dmg weapons already had the advantage for CQC to start. 632 is insufficient for a real CQC style weapon, in a game that also has 845 weaponry for several factions.

    (the TR don't have a 845 rpm-143 dmg carbine; in carbines the TR are screwed pretty much. Hello, Lyncx.. sorry.
    NC GD-7-F, and Bandit for short range; AC-X11 at range,
    VS have an 800 and 845 rpm one for short range. However, no 750 rpm one.

    Finally, for a real NC CQC weapon: 200 dmg.
    143dmg, 845 rpm: 0.426 s TTK.
    4*60/0.426= 563 rpm.
    That still isn't a good CQC weapon because of misses being a vast disadvantage, nanoweave, overshield, 11m damage drop-off,
    but something like 200 dmg, 577 rpm would be a real NC CQC weapon. :D
    (and many, many people would whine, understandably)
    • Up x 1
  13. QuantumSerpent

    I read the muzzle velocity instead of the RoF...

    Though it occurs to me that all that calculation showed is that the TORQ has a higher DPS than the Reaper anyway.

    So what we have from your posts, then, is:
    -TR has the strongest CQC gear, carbines aside
    -TR's average RoF is more extreme than NC's average damage

    So, disregarding CQC balance for the moment:
    The question is, do we base our evaluation of faction traits on the average or the extreme? Given that if we base it on the average (750 to 600 vs 167 to 143), TR is fine, but if we base it on the extreme (909 to 845 vs 200 to 167), TR is not fine.
    • Up x 1
  14. Thornefear

    welll,, we do have battles rifles.... DMR....
  15. QuantumSerpent

    True, but those are specialized long-range weapons, all of which are semi-automatic. NC only has 200 damage automatics.
    • Up x 1
  16. _itg

    If it makes you feel any better, one of the most "NC" guns in the game is the NS-44 Commissioner. The other NS sidearms, the Decimator, and the Halberd are awfully "NC," as well.
  17. QuantumSerpent

    I can't say I'm especially keen on NS weapons (and as an Infiltrator, I especially despise the Commissioner).

    I really feel like the entire gear system of PS2 needs a complete do-over. Weapons need to encourage tactical, strategic and combined-arms gameplay, not a series of infantry TDMs. Part of that is making them hugely unique per faction (while not critical, it helps force tactical thinking).
  18. Saool

    Going to take a wild guess that your day job is not games design... or indeed anything to do with understanding customers and what customer satisfaction is.
  19. iller

    I'd happily sacrifice half the magazine size of the SAW if I could get even a 1/4 of the way through that magazine before dying at long range 1v1's. The SPREAD feels insane to me even with compensator & adv grip (which only helps with recoil??) and the actual damage it does feels identical to the Commissioner at long range but even harder to aim.

    The people who told me the SAW would be good after putting Certs into it... Lied.
    Yes please take my MAG and ROF off it; I'm not using 'em, that's for sure. Just give me an actual sniping LMG in return plz
    (inb4 "Lrn 2 saw" comment despite all stats and server smashes showing everyone mains EM6 / Anchor instead)
  20. QuantumSerpent

    I can't speak for Rovertoo, but had I said that I would have been joking about the fact that VS really doesn't seem to have much of a specific trait.
    • Up x 1