Calling all Liberator Pilots!

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Gundem, Nov 24, 2015.

  1. Gundem



    As I said, educate the masses on how to fight them, not to discuss whether they are OP or whether they should be A2G only, or whatever other straws the forumside could grasp at.

    Simply what a Liberator is, how it flies, how the people who fly it thinks, and what to do in your specific vehicle when you come to face one. No more, no less.
  2. Imp C Bravo

    I can do that super fast.

    Step 1: Have 3 people
    Step 2: Pull ANYTHING THAT DAMAGES A LIB
    Step 3: Profit

    OR

    Step 1: Have 2 people
    Step 2: Pull ANYTHING THAT DAMAGES A LIB
    Step 3: Not really profit -- but at least force the lib to leave.

    Lib loses against 3 of anything that damages it virtually 100% of the time barring extreme coincidence. 3 RLs. 2 bursters. 3 skyguards, 1.5 AA sundies. whatever. Has to run when dealing with 2 most of the time.

    Moral of the Story:
    Getting farmed in a lib? Have a mic! Ask two folks to help you kill it. The three of you kill it.

    Annoyed sarcasm over. Point of the story -- everyone knows how to fight a lib -- they aren't willing to go through the trouble of getting one or two people to help. They feel they should all counter it alone. The skyguard comes pretty close to doing that when alone to boot.
  3. Obstruction

    sky guard gets dumpstered by comp dalton or shredder, but all non comp non av libs are vulnerable enough to sky guards that they *must* initiate with tankbuster to win. what sky guards get salty about is that libs *only* engage them if they can win. it requires a more cautious play style than most people seem to have the patience for.
  4. Inex

    It's a fair point. Not only do you have to deal with people hostile to Libs, but there's also the problem of 'traitors' who simply poison the well.

    People who post nonsensical stuff like:
    So not only do you need to provide an accounting of the aircraft itself, you also need to shout down the people who post "Just spend 3x the Nanites and outnumber them" with a straight face.
    • Up x 1
  5. Gundem



    Hey now, lets not go there here, this is an announcement thread, not a discussion. I'd like to keep it clean please! :D
  6. Imp C Bravo

    I don't see how that is nonsensical. Please enlighten me.

    Also -- At no point in time do you have to spend 3x the resources. You really don't even have to spend 2x the resources to kick a lib out. And keep it, and all aircraft, kicked out for that matter.

    The point of what I said is that Libs (and Gals, and a lot of other vehicles ground OR air for that matter) are designed with large fights in mind. The vast majority of vehicles are designed to be killed by teamwork. Every tool currently available is a deterrent at worst, or semi dangerous at best -- alone. Adding in even one other person with that tool and vehicles are always at risk. Adding in a 3rd person and vehicles are at high risk.

    This applies to everything that is hardier than the other things in its weight class -- HAs, MAXs, Tanks, etc.

    Teamwork is how you kill libs. Teamwork is how you operate libs. Harassers -- teamwork is how you operate them. Teamwork is how you kill them. Etc....

    So let me sum up lib combat education one more time as simply as possible as Gundem asked,

    Libs weaknesses are their size, acceleration, and visibility.

    Keep an eye out for libs as libs that are being stealthy and hiding are not being very effective on the battlefield -- prioritize them when you see them as libs left alone are the most dangerous vehicle in the game and -- communicate their existence to as many people as possible. Then grab some AA. If anyone else does too you will at the very LEAST kick it out of the hex and keep it out of the hex (and all air actually) if you guys dedicate yourselves to AA until air gives up.

    That's my advice to ground units that want libs to go away.

    Edit note; Almost forgot -- but the Valk is actually an excellent Anti-Lib vehicle. A good valk pilot (not even great) will kill a lib without taking a hit if they know how every time in every situation except when the lib completely snuck up on said valk (which it never should).
  7. Septus

    The problem is not that the Lib is too effective or too hard to kill, in real life if an apache helicopter flew in to kill you, you would crap your pants. Same with a tank. Vehicles should be feared on the battlefield.

    The problem is that it doesn't mean anything to take one down. You know if you manage to kill a lib or MBT or Max or any vehicle for that matter, it will be back very soon. The resource system is the problem. A 2 man lib team can basically chain pull libs same with MBTs.
  8. Inex

    You're the one who said 3 Skyguards vs. 1 Lib is a reasonable counter.

    As shown by all those threads from tank drivers who dismiss C4 as a 'deterrent'.

    I just imagined all those solo Lib montages then?

    I notice you don't mention speed. They're big enough to warn you they're coming, but not slow enough that you can run away.

    And if you can't tell whether the air has given up because they aren't kind enough to send you a message saying it's all clear to abandon your Skyguard...
  9. Gundem

    PLEASE, for the sake of this thread's integrity, refrain from arguing or attempting to discuss balance here!

    I do not want this thread to devolve into a cesspool of fighting and nonsense! This is not the place!

    If you would like to continue your discussion, please, by all means, make your own thread for it.
  10. Imp C Bravo

    1. I did not say that.

    2. I did not imply that

    3. Montages are not at all applicable

    4. I actually did mention speed

    5. You are correct. Just like no other role in the game 'knows' when they are no longer needed. Gotta figure that out yourself.

    And also -- what does ANY of this have to do with this thread? You saw what the OP said. Talk about how we can kick out or kill libs with the tools in game currently. Whether those tools should be better or not is a whole other thread.

    With the tools we have -- how do we combat libs, what numbers, and how effective are they?

    Well, I actually talked about that (if you could stay on topic) in several posts. Gundem -- what can you add to what I have said about combating libs?

    So far I've mentioned:

    -Valks
    - 2 or more people with lock on AA
    - Skyguards
    - AA sundies
    - Bursters

    There are others -- but those 5 seem more designed towards killing air targets. Which of those listed combat options should we discuss more in depth?
  11. Septus

    First thing, big hint: if you shoot a lib, you are priority #1, especially for skyguards or walkers. dont draw attention unless there is already a lot of flak or you are pretty sure you can get the kill.

    The best counters to libs from the ground are:

    1. vulcans, so TR has a major bonus here, they are far better than a walker. against dalton or AI libs harassers are great, not as much against shredders. libs will probably avoid you.

    2. Flak MAXes. against AV libs especially. 1 flak max = major annoyance more repairs between runs, 2 flak maxes = libs should leave the area. 3 flak maxes = super death. Flak maxes are better than skyguard because they can take cover, shoot from spawn rooms, and are difficult to hit

    3. skyguards. a solo skyguard is good damage and will be a lib's priority most of the time. 2 skyguards = area denial, libs might try to sneak up on you while you are distracted if they really want to fly there, so watch out. 3 or more and libs just melt away.

    4. walker sundies. 1 walker is just a flag that says KILL ME! 2 walkers and the lib will be hurting and will either really try to kill you or avoid you and leave area. 2 sundies, with 3 or more walkers between them is too much for libs.

    5. dumb fire rocket launcher. this is very effective against low altitude libs going in for a tank bust. this does a ton of damage, just 1 hit can be a huge deal, 2 is almost always death. dumb fires used in conjunction with walker sundies is a great, libs go in for kill, they get hit by dumbfires. also costs no resources.

    6. lock on rocket launcher. this costs 0 nanites and is surprisingly effective. if you coordinate with a few people this can be very deadly. try to shoot after the lib has already made a pass and is on the way out, as this means they are already hurt, so 1 lock on doesnt do much but to an injured lib going to rep, it may be death. get a few guys together and this is awesome, as a bonus, 2 hits = flaming for ESFs, i dont know why more people dont do 2 or more teams of these, they would wreck ESFs and be good against libs.

    7. MBT/ lightning/ spear phalanx turret. These are hard to hit with but do massive damage similar to a dumbfire. VS are at a disadvantage here as it is even harder to hit with the magrider guns because of low angles. a spear phalanx turret is usually ignored by libs so can be a great surprise weapon with out as much risk of retaliation. libs like to kill tanks because of the XP value and usually a fairly easy kill, but if there is other AA in the area, they will ignore you if you are not a skyguard or shooting them with walker.

    8. AA phalanx turret. these are not real effective, mostly just a nuisance, especially with just one. if you have nothing else though, go ahead and jump in, might as well, these are usually low priority for libs to kill but with other AA or as support for your air forces, these are good and cost nothing.

    fianlly, small arms. just dont, it does literally 0 damage, like shooting a tank. shoot ESFs, but not libs. this is just announcing you are there so they can bulldog you. better to run for cover or grab some AA.

    as for other counters, against AI libs, 1 ESF is bad for them, more than that is almost certain death. but for AV libs, if they are good with the dalton like me, or with the shredder you will probably die alone, leave the lib alone if you are alone. you can test him out and see the gunner's skill, if you are getting hit but shredder, back off, if a dalton round comes close to you, back off. if you have multiple ESFs, it will be an easy kill, they will probably run away shooting.

    but do note than 1 esf is enough for any lib to break off the attack to focus on you, they may finish their run if they think they can get the kill, but after that, you are the target, so ESFs can be good distractions if you want to protect a deployed sundie or something, all you have to do is stay alive, not do damage, while your ground forces cap a base or whatever.

    for lib on lib, if you are getting farmed by an AI lib and he is unsupported, pulling a AV lib is very good if you have a decent gunner and you can fly ok, if not, pull a ESF, they harder to tank bust. if the pilot is good, he may win with tank buster alone. so ESF is better, or ground AA. against AV libs, i dont recommend using another lib unless you are very good and have good gunner, or you know enemy is very crappy. when a lib see an enemy lib, they are almost certainly priority #1 so be prepared.

    Is this like you were wanting Gundem? I am in LIBn on connery and an expert dalton gunner, but my rig cant record either sorry. glad to give input though.
  12. Jubikus

    The only thing i actually kill libs with.. Air has the weakest "hard counter" of anything in the game desighned for area of denial instead of straight up killing which leaves it feeling unrewarding. Ive shot down more ESF with a P2-120 AP cannon than i have with any actual AA weapon and thats actually hard to do since with the P2-120 AP you have to hit an esf twice to kill it as for libs its even further of a disparity since they are so tanky .
    • Up x 1
  13. Imp C Bravo

    Agree with most of what you said EXCEPT this.

    2. Flak maxes are only awesome when they HAVE cover. Pulling one and sitting next to a sundie or on top of a building with no cover or in a field will result in quick and certain death by any of the belly cannons or the nose gun if the lib pilot is skilled. They need a building to knick off into.

    5. Actually I don't disagree with this -- but a RL does 47% damage to a lib. so they will often survive two rocket hits with very low health. You aren't wrong -- just specifying the math. As you said -- almost always death and in conjunction with anything that damages a lib --- death.

    8. I think AA turrets are a bit better than you think. Most of the time a smart lib pilot will go kill them if no one is manning them as they are pretty damaging (skyguards -- but better accuracy)

    Also -- ESFs are not necessarily bad for Libs. A skilled dogfighter lib pilot is dangerous and can win even against multiple ESFs.
  14. Inex

    When I try to think of a counter to Libs, I prioritize a few things:
    1. Are you spending more Nanites per person than the Liberator? This is important because if so, you're going to lose the war of attrition.
    2. Do you need to outnumber the Lib crew? This is important because you're pulling those people from the ground fight, and you might not even have enough people available if the counter is expensive enough.
    3. Are you dead in the water if the Lib leaves? Pilots are notoriously risk averse. If you present a definite deterrent, they're going to leave and not come back. Did you just waste all those resources the moment the Lib flies over a hill never to return?
    Of all the things you listed, these are probably the closest. MAXs are crazy expensive compared to Libs (450 per person vs. 450 per crew) but at least they can be re-purposed afterwards and you don't need 9 of them. Sundies are nice and cheap, but require 3-6 people and aren't terribly versatile afterwards.

    A few of the other counters you listed are decent but not always available (TR Harassers, or base Phalanx turrets). And the biggest kick in the teeth would be that the counter that best fits my priorities above would be a Lib, or perhaps an ESF. But those have a skill requirement that makes them unusable as a Lib counter for most people.

    So I am very much looking forward to what Gundem has in store. If he does actually have a way to take out Libs which doesn't require spending more in Nanites and/or manpower I'll be glad to hear it.
    • Up x 1
  15. Gundem

    Bump for prime time
  16. Alexkruchev


    So what you are saying, is, to beat 1-2 people in a single vehicle, you need an entire squad plus vehicles to even have a chance. Good tips though, in the current game.

    The best way to kill a liberator is another liberator kitted for AA work ambushing from above. Everything else is at a severe disadvantage so long as the target liberator is not equipped with only A2G weaponry. Long range ESF plinking can work, but if the gunners know how to aim, they can hit you at that distance too, especially with a walker tailgun. If it runs stock plus tankbuster, your only chances are another liberator + skill, or disproportionate AA firepowerfrom the ground, concentrated. The Lib is a flying raid boss, and assuming a moderate level of operator skill in said lib, you will need 2-3x as many people as are in the liberator coordinating multiple vehicles to take it down.
  17. Gundem


    While you are wrong on most of those points, I will say now that another tank buster Liberator can be quite effective, so long as your target isn't paying attention to the sky.
  18. Gundem

    I think 1 more bump before I go ham on the guide shall suffice.

    Last call to be included! PM for details!

    kek, you thought I was kidding?
  19. Alexkruchev


    For balance purposes, it is not valid to say in a combined arms game that "You simply must pull exactly what that other player has." That's not how cross-faction cross-vehicle-class balance works, at all. However, your idea is valid that it would put you equal with them... assuming you have an equally certed out Lib and flying time and natural aptitude.
  20. Gundem


    Do not twist my words. I was stating that the Liberator is an effective counter to a Liberator, not that the Liberator is the only one or that Liberators should be.