[Suggestion] Bring Vanguard repair time back in line with other vehicles like before.

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Klypto, May 17, 2018.

  1. Klypto

    Currently only the Galaxy takes longer than a Vanguard to repair, and that's by a few seconds. Everything else is done repairing faster than the Vanguard.

    It use to take 2 charges of the repair tool to repair a badly damaged Vanguard, now it takes 2.5.

    I've spent 252 hours holding a repair gun, not interested in doing MORE.
    • Up x 1
  2. Sprant Flere-Imsaho

    Because vanguard and galaxy have more hit points than other vehicles. Want to repair less? Get damaged less. Want to repair in fewer 'charges'? Repair when the vehicle is less damaged.
    • Up x 3
  3. frozen north

    I have in previous posts mentioned an idea to alleviate this, without doing a heavy rework. Basically, lower its HP total to 5k instead of the current 6k. Along with this, increase its directional resistance for all sides by 20%. This results in the same effective HP, but brings the repair time in line with the rest of the MBT's.

    That 20% may need to be adjusted for the sides and rear ( since the math gets a bit more messy since they already have multipliers right now), but the general result would be the vanguard matching the repair times of every other tank.

    As a side, how long ago are you refering to with the 2 charges? I ask cause if it was long enough ago, then that would mean your talking about pre CAI, when all MBT had 4k HP, more damage, and a lot more resistances.
    • Up x 1
  4. Sazukata

    The Vanguard only takes longer to repair in occasions where the other 2 MBTs would've been dead.

    I don't see the problem.
    • Up x 7
  5. Klypto

    Well, frankly, this is what the vanguard use to be. Repair time was the same as other MBT's and the resistance were a few points higher on the side and a bit more on the front. Rear shots still killed the tank the same as any MBT.

    Weirdly enough on a statistics overview from launch all the way up to when I left, Vanguards lived shorter lives, killed less infantry and vehicles than the other MBT's and was worse at all other metrics except ESF kills. I was an outlier and thought it was weird so whatever.

    I believe that was mainly due to the hubris the old vanguard shield gave the drivers and the lack of technical skills or knowledge (gear popping acceleration, turret's heavy momentum and and extreme influence of tilt and hull momentum during air time, rolling repair, third person camera declination limiter bypass & use for situational awareness etc.)

    I stopped playing for 2 years to go get my bachelor's degree. The shield change was more than expected, the resistance change and extended repair time was not.

    I am not interested in being able to survive more hits in the rear than other tanks. The enemy is in the front.
    • Up x 1
  6. Klypto

    This was a stealthy vanguard nerf.

    Before it would take the same time to repair but had more effective health through higher resistance. Now it takes longer to repair with the same effective health in HP points.
    • Up x 1
  7. LordKrelas

    In a war of Attrition, it ensures the Vanguard not only is screwed, but without the Shield most certainly can't recover in time for the next engagement...
    Swear, the Tank is designed for Duels, and designed to die if engaged for a damn long time afterwards.
  8. frozen north

    I know way back when, the vanguard shield made it invulnerable to damage. To balance this and its high resistance with the best pershot damage of any MBT, the vanguard was slammed with a top speed of just 40kph, which made for a real challenge with the thing. If a vanguard did ever manage to get in close, there would be absolutely no way to beat it with another tank. If you fought a vangaurd at a distance and forced it to fight on your own terms, and not the vanguards, its mobility would get it killed nearly every time.

    The devs kinda realized this almost black and white difference was a big problem, so eventually, they made the shield into its current massive resistances buff, and made it the second fastest MBT ( the speed part came much later).

    As for CAI, it was a big update meant to simplify ground combat ( to mixed effect). Part of that was the almost complete removal of resistances from tanks, nerfing of tank damage, and increasing their HP ( there was a lot more, but this is the relevant parts to the current conversation). So for the vanguard to keep its durability advantage, they gave it a health buff, and thats why we are where we are.

    Currently, the vanguard is the best MBT in close quarters, and with its current shield plus anti armour weaponry, it can destroy any MBT in single combat before its opponent can kill the vanguard, regardless of the opponents build.

    Its a somewhat niche role, but its also one that it simply can not be beaten at. Which I guess means the old vanguard rule is still very much in play of winning any fight that's on your terms, and losing almost every fight that's not.

    And yes, it does not have its higher effective HP anymore, at least in the old sense. No denying that. But as has already been mentioned, much like before, it can still survive more damage without dying then any other MBT. Its just that now, tankiness and repair time are directly related, where as before they weren't.
  9. Jbeasty

    Just another reason I run nanites on my vanguard. The QoL alone is worth it and I feel it syncs much better with a vanguard overall anyways.

    Stealth is still fantastic though and I use it almost exclusively on my full AV mag/prowler, but I have always felt that half the benefit of stealth is the lessened chance aircraft will find you, which with a AP/walker vanguard, I WANT them to come after me.
    • Up x 1
  10. Klypto

    Technically not invulnerable as doing more than 2000 units of damage like with C4 would overload the shield and pass the remaining damage to the tank. But yeah it was pretty ridiculous to be able to instantly nullify some damage with no consequences.

    Vanguard top speed was always 55 kph forwards and 23 kph in reverse (infantry run at 24~ kph and would eventually catch up to you on perfectly flat ground). Kevmo did some testing with different speeds in 2014 on PTS but this never made it to live servers. This was also the first time that higher gravity on tank projectiles was tested but not implemented.

    An added artificial downside that was put into the game 1 month before launch (about july or june of 2012) was gear changing (They also nerfed the engine sound from something super epic to this more rickety sound by speeding up the cycle rate).

    The tank would spend 2.5 seconds in first gear (16KPH) but anyone with experience knew that if you stepped off the gas and re-applied the gear change would happen immediately. You could also mitigate some of this with racer chassis for a max speed of 66 kph but you lose your ability to turn well with speed. Experienced tankers could leverage height differences in terrain combined with swinging the tank barrel around quickly to help turn faster (done improperly or unknowingly your tank will flip over).

    But yeah the stock reverse speed has been buffed to match infantry (24 kph lol) and the forward speed was increased as well, Hover I will note that this was not a buff to the vanguard as all tanks received this speed increase in near equal if not exactly equal amounts. The only mobility buff that was important to the Vanguard was the removal of gear popping which didn't impact any experienced tankers in the first place.
  11. adamts01

    The Vanguard is the last tank that should see a buff.
    • Up x 1
  12. Klypto

    You mean un-nerf.
  13. LordKrelas

    Outside of the Shield, the Vanguard is pretty much screwed.
    Attrition? The Tank takes the longest to repair, against fast reloading enemy tanks, one of which also deals more damage faster.
    The moment the shield is gone, and even using the shield forces a repair, the Tank is stuck repairing for the longest.
    Making it not only lacking the single ability that let it win the first fight, but also sticking it with a longer period where it will die quickly to the enemy tank due to being Damaged already.
    It even takes longer so the tank stops burning.

    Considering how the Shield keeps being changed & changed, into a more situational upon situational, while the Tank is sent further & further into reliance on it..
    Can we stop making the Tank easily killed when the Ability is in cooldown at least?
    I don't see a Prowler or Magrider dependent on their abilities, and screwed heavily on their cooldowns.
  14. frozen north

    Magrider didn't, at least not forward. Once 50, always 50.
  15. LaughingDead

    Like in a tank fight, just repair in the middle of a fight, sure, ya just take less damage at all times. ok. Sure.

    So even if you supposedly out trade them with them having higher dps while vanguard has higher HP in turn, you're still on the losing side because it takes longer to repair even though in the engagements in which the other side would win (which happens more on average) they don't have to sit around nearly as long.

    Win every single fight that you have the upper hand, you mean like every other tank in the game. If you get a flank off and your damage in first, you win, regardless of shields or not because of how they reworked it to do nothing for the rear armor.

    It can survive more damage than any other MBT, during it's 8 seconds of shielding, which you have to pick, because it's not like it's passive, like how lockdown is going to be for prowlers. Prowlers can deal the most damage out of any MBT, magriders are the most maneuverable than any MBT, the only difference between them and the vanguard is they don't have to pay for their main focus. What's the downside to being a magrider? Not being a panguard? Not being a prowler? How bout prowlers? Not being a magrider or vanguard? Being a panguard though? Longer repair times and you deal less damage than the other 2, your main power is chugging damage when you have your cooldowns available, that's it.

    The way I see it, no one likes downtime, for big team vehicles like the galaxy in which you're generally expected to be running with a group. longer repair times is good because you're supposed to use it for dropping and minor combat support which is mainly get in and leave before you die, that's alright to have a longer repair time because you aren't expected to be the main combat vehicle. Vanguards though, are an empires main way of fighting, forcing a player to wait longer repairing being vulnerable while you're supposed to be in the thick of things constantly is not a good trade off for one instance of shielding that you have to buy anyhow, if you don't use it then you spend even more time repairing, how's that supposed to be fair? Wasn't the point of CAI turret changes to make all turrets viable for killing other tanks? So as a vanguard I'm less entitled as other MBTs because I have to buy a shield and repair longer than the other MBTs? Where's the consistency?
  16. adamts01

    I've heavily certed all 3 MBTs, and at the end of the day I'd still pick the Vanguard if I had to choose one for my faction, with the Mag being a very close 2nd. The Prowler gets that dps bump, but it's a sitting duck and the easiest thing in the world to hit. The Mag is completely outclassed in all but ranged combat. The Vanguard without its shield is the easiest to land the hardest hits with. Yeah, the Prowler deals more damage per mag, but in practice against moving targets I'd still take the Vanguard. I admit that the tank might just fit my skill/playstyle, but I don't hear any of my tank-main NC friends complaining about the thing. Yeah, the shield and resistance got a nerf, but I still think it's the best option, or at least tied for 1st place overall.
  17. LordKrelas

    Eventually, Vanguard is going to be further stripped down at this rate, and the Shield keeps slowing going away.
    Since now it can't handle attrition, it already was required to have the shield every damn time.
    If it isn't where the Vanguard just has one opponent, has their shield, or the enemy lacks aggression or even allies...
    Sure it will work, until the Vanguard is essentially broken - by the Devs shredding the tank & then the shield.
    The Shield has been hit 3 times - Now the tank must repair constantly, has an entire rear weakness as well.
    Without the Shield, the Vanguard isn't surviving an intelligent opponent.
    The Shield is the tank.

    And for some reason, a tank designed as a Duelist is in this..
    As eventually, the shield will likely be demolished completely, and the Tank will be left with all the debuffs on it.
    The slowest reload, out-classed DPS, massive side profile, and the longest repair to name the primaries.
    It also the only Tank that needs their Ability constantly:
    Prowlers do not need lock-down to win a fight.
    Magriders don't need magburn either, to win a fight against someone who can aim.
    Vanguards? If Target can aim, you most damn certainly need the shield.

    Not to mention, the long repair time, means Hit & Runs are most effective against NC.
    As they are the only side, with a tank that takes that long to repair the damage.
    Peeking matches? Attrition comes in quick.
  18. frozen north

    Key things real quick. Firstly, baseline lockdown that is comming out is noticeably worse then the current version. As in its a velocity buff and thats it, at the cost of all mobility. Just want to point that out.

    Magriders maneuverability is only valuable when the tank isn't in close quarters. With its gun traverse being linked to a sub par hull traverse speed, its close combat abilities are laughable. It also has the worst main cannon elevation range, so theres a few downsides; terrible close range, and the worst in class AA.

    Prowlers firepower is the best, not disputing that. That being said, its not nearly as big of an edge as one might think. Running the math of AP+halberd vs AP+halberd of prowler versus vanguard with nothing to aid either side, the TTK actually ends up being pretty similar. Plus, all of the prowlers firepower doesn't count for much if its moving, since the lack of a high end magrider suspension makes mobile firing a poor option. So a comparatively fragile MBT has to sit still to use its fire power, yet its TTK is at best only slightly better then its opponent, and it needs to land more hits to do it. I see that as a weak point to the prowler.

    Particularly with the magrider, and to a slightly lesser extent with the prowler, you can definitely lose fights where you have the initiative. Magrider because if its in close quarters, its screwed. Prowler because it is can't burst down an opponent, it wont be able to retreat before it gets blasted to smithereens. I mean, a vanguard can have a full four second kill edge on a MAX level lock down prowler. With maxed reload and lockdown, a prowlers AP cannon can do a full firing cycle in a hair under 2 seconds, and that still won't be enough to beat a vanguard that gets its shield up and front aimed at a prowler within 4 seconds of a fight starting ( Short version of the math is that with AP+halberd, and the right combination of reload buffs, a vanguard will leave an enemy tank on 50hp after about 8.25 seconds of combat, which means they burn to death by the 9 seconds mark).

    Is the vanguard weak? Perhaps. It can't sustain fight like the other two MBT's can, and it lacks an effective long range combat ability. Not denying that. But when your in the second highest damaging tank, and can out kill something with up to triple your main cannons DPS, I have some trouble seeing a vanguard as truly being weak.

    I proposed before the idea of altering its resistances and HP to bring it in line with repair time while preserving its effective HP. That's in my book the best way to remedy the issue, without heavily affecting the balance scales, since the vanguard is reasonably well balanced as is.

    Plus, and I just want to add this here, if that shield was passively available ( either built in, or, if you really want it to be OP, permanently active), it would make the vanguard a bit of a balance nightmare. I mean, one v one with a prowler, the prowler would need nearly 24 seconds against a permanently active vanguard shield to drop a vanguard. In that time, both the magrider and prowler would be dead more then twice over. Built in... maybe... but I would also want it to get hit with the nerf bat in the same way that lock down is getting hit if that happens.
  19. DIGGSAN0

    Are you Fing kidding me?

    "My tanks has got 1000HP more than yours, it is unfair that i have to repair it longer"

    Guess what you could just repair it to 5000 HP so you reach the same time to repair it.

    How can you stupid people explain a buff as a nerf?!
    • Up x 2
  20. Klypto

    What buff? They reduced resistance and then increase HP to be the same as before which also increased repair time.

    Same effective health + longer repair time = nerf. It's that simple.

    I wish I could edit my first post, I didn't think it would be this hard to understand.