Biolabs are only fun for defenders.

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Coldmeister, May 26, 2014.

  1. Ronin Oni

    So you either have a fight that stagnates as defenders hold a whopping 2 chokepoints with enough numbers to make overwhelming all but impossible unless you bring like 150 MAXes crashing at once...

    or you sneak attack and take out their spawn before they mount a defense....

    either way it doesn't sound like a fun fight.
  2. Sixstring

    There needs to be an entire biolab redesign,it's not that they aren't fun but there are only two ways to get into the extremely confined main area. There need to be generators on the outside for the ground shields and an entire network of stairs and rooms in the huge middle section where there is nothing right now. Then you will have people coming up from the ground,teleporting in and using the landing pads.
  3. Silus

    My main issue with Biolabs is that as a Tanker, there's not a hell of a lot for me to do. I mean I can roll around in my Skyguard and provide some AA cover against counter-Gal Drops or enemy Libs, but that's really it.

    Honestly I think tanks should be able to, I dunno, take out the BioLab leg joints to cause the whole complex to lower (Enemy team would be able to repair said legs from inside the biolab, but at least it'd give the tanks something to do) allowing for easier access and smashing of the landing-pad choke points.
  4. Thardus

    I disagree with you entirely. I really do think different bases should be easier or harder to attack or defend. Not all, but there should definitely be some toughies that you have to really commit to, or try to pull out from under the enemy.

    On a tactical level, sure, an imbalanced base doesn't really have any benefits over some mirror-imaged arena. On a strategic level, however, it gives options. You can look at a map, and figure out the best places to cede territory, the best places to try and attack, the best places to make last stands. You can figure out where to fight the enemy, where to avoid the enemy, and the places where you have the best chance of forcing the zerg to halt.

    You can decide that an enemy base would be easy to capture, but then know that if you want to keep your gains, you would have to find a more defensible base further down the line to try and keep pushing towards, so the enemy can't just push right back over your more flimsy bases.

    I might be misunderstanding you, but really, what I hear you saying is that you think the choice of terrain you fight over, where you make your stand, where you send your attack from, and where you draw the line... should not matter. At all.

    You claim skill should be the deciding factor, but on a strategic level, choosing your battles, and arranging it so that a fight happens where you want it, is definitely a skill.
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  5. LibertyRevolution

    Here is a thought.. get out of your tank?
    This is an MMOFPS. As a "tanker" you are using a force multiplier as a playstyle..
    Go play world of tanks if all you want to do is sit in tanks all day.. Oh wait then you couldnt make XP farming infantry..
  6. Silus

    Edited that for you.
    <= Dedicated Skyguard

    Edit: And let's face it, armor in general as it stands has far too little to do.
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  7. ScrapyardBob

    They would have to start by redoing the bio-lab from the ground up:
    • The raised platform area needs to about 50% larger in diameter to allow more spread out capture points inside.
    • They all need walls and vehicle shields added around the base, ala Suarva, but without the big open gap on the east side. Bio-labs should be similar to Amp Stations in that you have to take down a gate shield or use a shield-breaker to get into the courtyard.
    • They need far more buildings around the base. Places to hold the gate generators and other points of interest.
    • All bio-labs should have (5) capture points. Three in the upper area, two on the ground inside the courtyard.
    • The upper domed area should have more 2-3 story buildings connected by a lot more catwalks.
    • The lift-pad openings should have shields, with generators that can be disabled.
    • There should be an opening at the very top of the dome with a one-way grav lift leading down to an upper cat-walk area that connects down to the rest of the buildings inside the bio-lab. Maybe that opening should be guarded by a generator on the very top of the dome, only repairable if you fly up there in an aircraft. So you wouldn't be immediately vulnerable to a galaxy drop from above, but you'd have to keep an eye on that generator. And getting back up there to close the hole would require air access to the outside.
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  8. AnnPerkins

    biolabs aren't fun for anyone. Attackers sit in the tele room until there's a decent max zerg and defenders sit outside teleporters waiting on attackers. It's booooooooooring
  9. Axehilt

    It's basically summed up like this: if the game's ability to offer strategic-level decisions comes at the cost of entire bases being shallow to fight at, that's too high a cost for very little benefit.

    I mean we're basically talking about x minutes of boring, lopsided, uncompetitive combat being the result of these strategic choices which provide a very limited/nebulous benefit. (Where x is however long it takes for the attackers to remember they're attacking a Bio Lab and stop.)

    Perhaps it clearer to describe it in terms of the number of meaningful decisions (which could be strategic or tactical decisions) and to point out that at a great base you're going to be making a fairly constant stream of meaningful tactical decisions from loadout/vehicle choices to which path you take through the base and/or where you decide to mount a defense. These decisions are a constant flow: every life, and more of them the longer you live each life.

    Meanwhile on the flipside we're talking about a single decision, "This is the overpowered base, so we're stopping the zerg here."

    Digging deeper to the quality of those decisions, the single decision is always the same static decision (that overpowered base is always overpowered,) while the moment-to-moment decisions involve a lot of very dynamic decisions (attacking along the left path might've worked last time, but this time you heard several scattermaxes so you need to dynamically decide to attack along the right path this time (or hide so they move past you and you sneak by, or set up an ambush at a choke point.)

    Certainly with a significant amount of effort they could add depth to the strategic game and make those decisions more dynamic, and I'm not against that, but I definitely feel like it isn't going to happen with static, overpowered bases.
  10. Pirbi

    I like both defending and attacking them. Keeps you busy.
  11. Taemien

    Explain to me how you spawn at a Biolab with the SCU down?

    Yeah someone can notice it, but unless the points are under attack, you can't spawn there unless you spawn hop. Try it. Spawn at one of your warpgates, hit redeploy and try to spawn at a base on the enemy front that isn't currently under attack. You can do it. You have to spawn hop to it.
  12. Celeris

    The defenders have far easier time getting revives off AND a much closer spawn position, combined with the defenders advantage of being able to set up AI turrets, superior cover and access to elevated positions inside the base mean biolabs are nightmares to assault. The only faction with a decent chance is NC with their schat maxes, aegis shields and their ability to lock down the shield gen room and then the SCU with walls of skillsuits.

    Another thing that works against biolabs is how the advantage of the defenders scales better with higher populations. I'm fairly certain that successful biolab assaults happen FAR less frequently when there are 3-4+ squads each side than when there is an even fight of 1-2 squads each side.
  13. Tuco

    Only vehicles camp, right?
  14. faykid

    I agree. And i also think that Biolab capture points must be located as follows: 2 of them on the ground, 2 of them inside. When both ground points are flipped, slow count-down begins (like Octagon). In this case attackers will have a chance to cap it eventually, but defender are still going to have fun farming the attackers
  15. Pikachu

    What if the teleport room were made into spawn rooms? So you don't have to walk the annoying path from spawn building to teleport building.
    • Up x 1
  16. Axehilt

    I don't know why you think this magical "I always succeed at ghost-capping my Bio Labs" example means anything.

    It proves my point more than it proves your point. It implies that you understand Bio Labs are overpowered, and work to simply ghost-cap Bio Labs to avoid fighting. Then on top of that it provides yet another reason we should avoid bases like this: the game shouldn't revolve around ghost-capping.

    But to answer your question: I don't. I have already spawned there with all the non-blind players who saw you creeping slowly (every 5 minutes) towards the Bio Lab on the map, so we were already there and you didn't kill the SCU as a result.
  17. Taemien

    How is it a ghost cap when the people I just pushed back into the biolab can spawn there until I take down the SCU? You never explained that. You just take a piece of what I say out of context and try to make a point out of it.

    To anyone reading this, take a look at my above posts. I've got a quote of myself that has a section UNDERLINED that shows what this guy is ignoring in order to take my argument out of context.

    See, Axehilt, the problem with this tactic you are using is this isn't a verbal argument where people might forget what I said a few moments ago. Its written. And people can go back and read. I can even copy and paste what I said earlier. Which I will do again:

    Oooh, I even put color on it this time too.

    So as you all can see I'm not promoting ghost capping, only preventing further reinforcements. Which is no different than covering a spawn room with mines, tank rounds, ect.

    Unless Axehilt is willing to say he allows his enemy to come out of their spawn rooms and then fights them on point in an gloriously honorable duel between warriors. If he wants to state that. I want see a video of this in action. Because like most planetside players.. he probably normally camps the crap out of a defeated force until its time to go to the next base.

    I've never heard someone say, "let them come out and lets fight them fairly on the control point!" Since I've started playing in Beta. This will be the first time.
  18. Axehilt

    Any way you spin it, you're intentionally avoiding a balanced fight at a Bio Lab because you understand it to be an imbalanced base that goes one way in a balanced fight.

    I'm a Play-to-Win sort of guy. I avoid duels. In fact I go way beyond that and actively stack the odds in my favor with whatever game rules let me do so. But when doing so clearly results in shallow gameplay, I point that out and suggest the game be made deeper. It won't stop me from using the broken stuff profusely (MAXes) but I will actively campaign against the overpowered thing in the forums, because I know that fixing it will result in a better, deeper game.
  19. Taemien

    Sorry I didn't spin it, it was my original post in this thread. Its pretty specific, there's no spin to it whatsoever. You got called on it, can't squirm out now.
  20. Axehilt

    Yeah but here you are posting about whether or not you spun things, when the fact still stands that you're avoiding direct Bio Lab fights because you know it's an overpowered base. It should be fixed because leaving it busted creates only a single static decision (which isn't really a decision at all but simply "Always defend at the Bio Lab.") and prevents a myriad of dynamic decisions that would make the game deeper.

    So it's shallow vs. deep gameplay. Why would you want a shallower base, if a balanced one offers deeper more interesting gameplay?