Best ESF Dogfighters

Okay first off I'll describe my feelings about the striker then move to the A2AM.


Striker- Facts are they are pretty strong in terms of pushing people out of areas, causing damage to someone willing to take the shots, and punish people for dogfighting.

Now you might reply, "But Salad, The striker shoots 5 rockets and each one doesn't do a considerable amount of damage and even so they are easy to dodge."

And you would be 100% correct in that. Dodging them is pretty easy depending on where your located on the map and where they are coming from, but the fact that they force you to drop everything to take cover is bland. It's a poor design for a other wise fun game as are all the other lock ons. Realistic games or Arcade games that have "Realistic" missle function don't really apply here, since we are talking about...as you said missles that can turn sharp angles or seemingly go through terrain here and there. The air gameplay is fun and protecting yourself against ESF/Libs is actually not hard to do, so this game actually doesn't benefit from having lock ons in it. It actually kills the potential and overall fun of any vehicle. The striker even more so considering it's a faction specific weapon that punishes anyone not on that faction.

Now back to the point Striker doesn't do that much damage per rocket. Yeah it's not a huge hit taking 1 or 2 of the rockets but it is a gameplay changer. Now let me explain it like this, Your dogfighting someone regardless if you have full health or low health a striker will slowly eat away at you meanwhile stopping any kind of nanite repair you may have going. Basically ending that dogfight to the point your either backing off or your dying/dead. Now in a losing dogfight it even more so puts you at a disadvantage, a standard lock on can be flared and overall easy to lose quickly or outrun, regardless you can plan for that damage coming in and know what to expect.

The striker shoots 5 rockets and without a proper notification on it actually being a striker you cannot plan for the damage it's going to give. It just slowly eats your health away and even taking 1 shot stops your nanite repair which can be a Dogfight changer between two people. Also considering trying to leave the area quickly to get rid of the missles coming at you, your forced to hide behind whatever terrain for extended periods of time. I've lost 1 or 2 of the missles before just to get hit by the last 3 as your forced to move from another source of AA or an ESF coming at you.

TL;DR: Striker is annoying, Easy to use, and a fun killer for anyone not TR.


A2AMissles - Easy to use, not that effective unless in groups or laming someone that is already fighting someon else.

They act strange at times, such as my experience they do not do damage when a hit is made but that could be just me.

There's not much to say about them, they promote bad gameplay and being a skilled pilot using them doesn't give you a advantage over a bad pilot using them. Taking A2Amissles puts you at a even bigger disadvantage than not using a Airframe considering your overall ability. This of course is when your flying alone and dependant on playstyle but for the majority it is still a disadvantage.

Now in group gameplay 1 or 2 lock on missles can be deadly considering you can have unlimited time to just send those missles flying without the other person really capable of doing anything about it. Which brings up the point that the Zerg has the major advantage. It dumbs down the game, making skill not the overall benefactor in conflicts. You put a Skilled pilot with Rotary / AB Tanks against 2 or 3 pilots using the same thing, he has a shot.......his skill can basically win that fight, his overall ability to outperform, out manuever, or gun the other pilots can win that fight. Now take that same situation and add 1 player with lock on missles and that skilled pilot is forced to drop everything to kill that target first which is most likely sitting back laughing at your attempts while his buddies are shooting on you, or run. Even then spotting the one using them can be difficult considering you might think it was a G2A. Now same situation with 2 or 3 sets of A2AM and that skilled pilot is forced to run.

TL;DR: A2AMissles take skill and remove it from the overall gameplay. Punishing aggressive pilots, solo pilots, bad or skilled pilots.


These are my opinions and you may not see eye to eye with them but fact of the matter is, the players, the air, the ground, and the overall gameplay would benefit from the reduction or the removal of lock on weapons. Numbers>Skill> Everything else.

Sometimes I feel it doesn't matter how many players or how good they are. The force that has the largest amount of lock on missles is usually the winner.

I might sound kind of whiny in this statement, crying TR OP TR OP!!!

I promote skilled and honourable gameplay, and if the NC had the striker I would say the exact same thing.

I didn't proof read that post so it might be all ****** up lol.

Okay for the Striker:

I guess I'm just not understand what the real problem with it is. It's a lock on the same as any other, so flares should still disrupt the first shot and a lock on for the next 5 seconds. So if you treat getting away from a striker shot like any other old AA rocket, then how is it going to be a different outcome? It is if you stick around in range of it and it can shoot you after you flare. But same goes for any lock on. So unless it has more range than the others, I don't see what the problem is if you take the same procedures to avoid it as you would with any other g2a rocket.

Maybe I will have to play against it to really understand it, but even so it is still a lock on rocket launcher and I am not seeing how flaring and getting out of there like you would with any other lock on rocket works less against a striker.


A2A:

As I said, the missiles act strange, and I hate that. If they acted consistently and realistically (consistency is the bigger factor though) then I would like them more. Hopefully in the future we can see an update address that at the very least.

The problem I am seeing with your entire analysis here is what you say in your last bit there; you promote skilled and honorable gameplay. I don't disagree with that, I think most people who frequent this thread agree as well. But our values don't matter for **** on the battlefield, especially in a game like this where large scale battles is the main attraction. Who gives a **** about being honorable then? We want our faction to win by all conventional means. Missiles are completely conventional.

A2A missiles exist to counter enemy aircraft. You may be a ballsy pilot who likes to get in close for the guns kill, and are really good at that. There are two good counters to that. Either be a skilled enough opponent to match this person in a dogfight, or use missiles to give yourself an edge. In general, use of missiles will also make the fight last a shorter amount of time. Fun as a long dogfight against a good opponent is, thinking in terms of the metagame and furthering your factions goals, you want your enemy dead sooner rather than later.

So one's ability to outmaneuver, outrun, outperform, etc., has a counter. Every possible strategy we can use as an ESF pilot has some sort of counter. The catch all is really lockons from any source, but even then we have to adapt to lessen the effectiveness of that. Removing lockons I think is the dumbest idea and worst possible route for this game. I want to see their behavior changed yes, but hell no to removing them. We stupid humans would never have invented and used them if they weren't effective at something. Embrace them for what good they can bring, but also don't become reliant on them.

They have their place and part of growing our skill as pilots is learning to adapt to the crappiest of situations to increase our survivability and effectiveness as much as possible is related to this. There is not way we can make it so lock ons are 100% effective against us, or 100% ineffective against us. We can work to become better and improve our odds in situations where they would usually be against us. But these counters exist for a reason, because they are most effective at destroying another strategy/playstyle. You don't have to embrace it, but you can't escape it either.

I feel like my point may have been kinda lost in that ramble, that wasn't where I expected it to go.
In any case though, I put on my a2a missiles for a while today and filmed some of it. I tried my best to use them in a way that shows that yes, they can be useful in any aerial situation if used a certain way, and more importantly, not relied upon. I will upload that soon here.

Do it do it do it do it.

As for lock on missiles: I do not like A2A missiles because the skill cap is incredibly low and do not provide any benefit, other than situational, over fuel tanks. I do no mind having them used against me because they are not particularly effective against my flight style and loadout(the mossie is almost immune, even without flares, to missiles this way).

If they changed A2A missiles a little bit I would probably use them. Greatly increase the speed of the A2A(not G2A) missiles, and cut their ability to turn to 75% of what an ESF is capable of. This raises the skill cap by requiring you to insure that you are in an optimal firing position(otherwise the missile will miss) and gives skilled pilots the ability to dodge missiles without making them too easy to dodge and thus defeating their intended purpose(noob training). That's my opinion anyways. Criticisms?

I will try to include it then

Well, I still dislike the argument about a2a missiles skill cap being low and all that. I still think belittling their use doesn't help anyone become better in both using them and countering them. Thing is though, I still want to see the dynamics of a2a missiles change. As I said before, making them a little faster (hell making all ESFs a little faster would be nice too) and also making their behavior less erratic and more consistent (so that they have some predictability that good pilots can use to develop a solid tactic to counter them, like in terms of dodging/evasive maneuvers). There is no reason why missiles should not be used in even a close quarters dogfight situation unless your personal preference dictates otherwise. I think they should be completely capable, but need their behavior changed so that to do so requires a whole different level of skill and comprehension of using them right in such situations.

So that's basically what my opinion is boiling down to now. I personally don't use a2a anymore out of preference, the afterburners are my love right now. But I feel I can use the missiles well enough as is, and even to a somewhat higher degree of effectiveness than a casual pilot.Though I am disappointed in their gameplay mechanics right now. Missiles are so erratic and unpredictable that it is just annoying going up against them. Hell even using them, sometimes they screw up royally. If they could just be changed to act more consistently, I think the major issue with them would be addressed and they would become something everyone that is a naysayer towards them now might actually begin to like.

I don't think you read my massive novel. I believe we had this discussion like 15 pages ago, and I appreciate your input and sticking to your opinion.

I don't mean to insult you by saying this but it will come out that way. Lock on's are not a counter to ESF's they are a counter to skill and fun. You even said so in your post, you need to adapt and remove yourself from that situation which leaves you at a disadvantage of putting your back to the enemy and forces you out of the area. Simply because 1 guy out of the possibe 1-100 infantry has it, now by this time almost every player has some form of lock on. So you leave that area, and encounter another guy just sitting at the next base, and the process continues.

Skill should not have a counter besides numbers and someone being more skilled than you. It's basically like the shotgun that almost EVERYONE complains about. It one shot kills people, no massive amount of aim, no leading targets, no chance for someone caught in it. It should be removed.



Fact is lock on missles on infantry are easy to use and have no downsides, A2AMissles are easy to use and in groups have no downsides.

A Scrub pilot is the same as a Skilled pilot when using them in groups. You displaying the same amount of effort and skill as anyone using them in this situation.

A Skilled pilot is a Scrub pilot when using them alone. Your at a massive disadvantage using them alone and you should get destroyed in a fair fight.

Lock on's don't promote skill or better piloting for the person using them. They are not even a Counter to Air, they are a Counter to Fun and the overall speed of gameplay.


Due to lack of time I can't continue you go into detail on this right now, but I will continue this later if needed.

I hate to butt in but my greatest dislike about the striker is getting hit by the first, noticing it's a striker, flaring, but then I get hit by 2-3 more missiles anyway? It's annoying. Not sure if bug, or rockets fired will always hit even if flared?

A2A missiles should have longer range and be easier to evade.

I find it kinda stupid that I have to get into Air Hammer effective range to use A2A missiles.

Please do not misunderstand, when people talk about a low skill cap it isn't belittlement. The skill cap is a measure of how much your abilities can improve with a weapon before you can not realistically improve any further. Rotaries have a high skill cap because you must account for drop, your vector, your enemy's vector, distance, etc. Whereas A2A missile require far less calculation to fire and score a hit thus giving them a much lower skill cap.

In my opinion, the pinnacle of skill regarding A2A missiles is the ability to use them through free look whilst flying and fighting. Even this, however, is more about your skill with the ESF than the weapon itself.

Increasing the range of the missiles would only make them worse. I believe a more effective change would be a speed increase and turn rate nerf.

Well I will drop the Striker bit for now, I'll just have to fly against it and see what I am missing about it.


G2A missiles though are inherently easy to use though. It's not hard to find your target since you know it's in the sky, and there is plenty of room up their to aim. In our own history we see how SAMs really changed the game for aircraft around generation 4, where SAMs could completely block off zones of airspace so that no aircraft could safely enter it. They had no choice but to stay out. We have to do the same really. It's almost always too hard to spot shoulder mounted G2A so that is their advantage. At worst, you get shot down in a ****** fashion. At best though, they just deter you from entering that airspace in the first place. Which is what they should be doing. In terms of gameplay now, I would like to see their range reduced slightly since our ESFs don't have nearly enough speed to really retreat when just being on the very edge of G2A effective range. It's a small issue that needs worked on yes, but the concept should still apply even then.

A scrub pilot in a group may be just as good as a skilled pilot as you say, but that just proves your earlier point that a counter to a skilled pilot should be numbers. If a team has the numbers to do so, why shouldn't they beat that lone skilled pilot by whatever means necessary?

Now a solo skilled pilot using them is only going to do bad if they use them wrong. Using them wrong only really means relying on them too much. Guns first, missiles second. Here is my video from today showing a few examples of what I think to be a better use of missiles. I was flying solo the whole time and only died to an AA max 20 minutes into this life.

Most everywhere else I see the argument though it's just people complaining about it. You are right though that the skill cap in that regards isn't too high. But that's kinda the point with missiles in the first place. They should make fights easier in some regard. I think because of this though, actually mastering their use is even harder since few people see how that could possibly be done. I definitely think there is some level of use though that can be considered, one way or another, expert use of missiles. That is not completely true now considering the wonkiness of missiles in the first place. But conceptually, I think it is potentially there.

Far as I know it should be a bug in that case. Flares should disrupt all incoming missile locks and stop new locks for a few seconds. It does only stop the lock though, not the missile from moving, so I guess technically if the missile was coming straight for you and didn't have to turn when the lock was lost, it could still hit you. Doubt that happens more than .0001% of the time though lol

Flares only stop tracking. So if you're flying in a straight line, flare, then continue in your straight line, you can still get hit depending on where the missile was fired from. Unlike in BF3 where lockons actually go after the flares, in PS2 you need to flare then make a slight course change to be 100% sure you're missile free.

Dem bails...

I know, my favorite part of PS2!

-_-

I'm saying this isn't real life, this isn't close to a realistic game. It's a game without any realistic gameplay too it. Now if this was say Arma 2 your statements about SAMs and countering enemy air and complete control over them would be viable. In this type of game it just doesn't apply.

ESFs are easily the highest skill cap vehicle in the whole game. A Liberator crew doing A2A is most likely on the same page maybe a even higher if you consider the communication aspect of the two players, but overall a ESF pilot has the highest potential.

I said Numbers > Skill on the scale of 1 player. 1 ESF should not be able to kill 3+ ESFs alone unless he highly outskills them.

Now considering the chances of a 1v3 in the eyes of one of the best pilots, with a little luck and spot on performance he can manage that. I've actually done it quite a few times as I'm sure some of you have aswell. Now add in just 1 person using a2amissles and his chances just went from "I can outplay these guys" to "Where is the A2AMissle user, where is my team?"
You suddenly go from having a chance to having zero chance unless your team helps or you destroy that A2A user in 1 clip.

The whole situation negates skill and promotes bad gameplay. Imagine this on a larger scale now, 3-4 Lock on users with a group of teammates against your smaller or equal team without using the lock ons. You will lose, or should lose 99% of the time. Coordinated locks can break this game quite easily as seen by The Enclave in how brutally they can shut down any vehicle that comes near them with simply looking at the target.

I didn't watch your video because my internet is going through it's period, but I'm assuming it wasn't against a skilled pilot in a 1v1 situation. You will never get a kill on a skilled opponent using A2AM and if you did he likely just messed up or you had help.

I'll just leave this here incase you didn't see it awhile back.

This is my troll a2am video, and I think the only time I actually put them to use.

If you find something Skilled in the gameplay right here, I'm not sure what to tell you.

Folks unfortunately as this isn't outfit recruitment I need you move your discussion regarding A2A to the Vehicles section. Thanks for your understanding.