Before you call for an NC Max nerf...

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by JibbaJabba, Feb 10, 2021.

  1. csvfr

    I'm saying it's not unfair, in a team-based combined arms game, for one unit to be strong as long as it is counterbalanced by another unit being weak. As the VS is the faction that overperforms as infantry and in the meta, they should be the target for balancing. This could for example take the form of a nerf like "Orion/Betelegeuse has been given 0.5 bloom like the rest of the weapons in their category". But for the sake of flavour and fun the TR and NC maxes could rather be given a buff, in order to slaughter the VS heavies instead. This is not the logic the devs follow no but the logic players have in selecting their loadouts, weapons and approaches to best acheive said game objectives.

    Naturally asymmetric balance may lead to some whining, like calls to nerf/remove AI ESFs, infiltrators or C4. I call it whining because most of these comments come from an HA-centric perspective and fail to consider the interaction between different categories of units and weapons. Instead of "should, and if so, how can the HA get an easier time countering the shotgun MAX?" it becomes "even with the Orion/Betlegeuse I can't run straight into the room anymore and slaughter everyone plz nerf the MAX". In fact this is what was done 2 years ago, before that the Mattock could actually 1-shot a standard nanoweaved soldier, 2 years after there is whining when it takes 2-shots?!

    As it is now it is impossible for the NC max to mix and match arms to suit the engagement like the other factions can. It is either double Scattercannons or no 1HK. This leaves the other weapons: Grinder, Hacksaw, and Mattock, without any purposeful role on the battlefield. In this sense revitalizing the Mattock might not be a bad move.
  2. Liewec123

    since you seem to be all for balance, i too have a question, look at these two pictures and tell me which is mattock and which is Betelgeuse.
    yes mattocks have been overperforming compared to the other AI max weapons for 7 days,
    but betel has been doing the exact same thing in the LMG category for YEARS.
    so do you only think balance should be applied when it comes to NC?

    i can admit that 4 pellet mattock was overperforming and OP, can you admit that Betel is overperforming and OP?
    and why is one fixed after 7 days but the other is left plaguing live for years?
  3. JibbaJabba

    OMG dude, who gives a crap about whatever cherry picked and likely irrelevant stat you have come up with. Please tell me that's not KPU again. I swear.
  4. pnkdth

    I disagree with the comparison. If that were the case they are absurdly overpowered in CQC since they, 1) have the best KDR (2.36 versus VS 2.23 and TR 1.96), 2) most kills (26,500 more than VS, 36,000 more than TR), 3) were made even more powerful with the recent adjustments. That's one hell of a sidearm. Comparing the data the TR MAX is in a much more sorry state as the performance data for VS and NC are fairly similar.

    I think you second statement is more or less true. I'd say many of the CQC weapons for MAX units are just a bit too much CQC for the taste of the average PS2 player, i.e. VS/TR want to get more headshots and the NC wanting to extend their range to work better. Raw DPS taking a backseat. If anything I would hope a rebalance would work around the knowledge that no one really wants the extreme CQC options for MAX units.
  5. rajawaya

    How about we just rework all the maxes?
    • Up x 2
  6. Botji

    Why was the old NC MAX fixed after several years instead of 7 days? I didnt think you joined the game after that but apparently so, you should have been here from the start and you could have enjoyed years of NC MAX cancer like some of us did and is half the reason I am so exasperated with this topic. The DEVS should know better than to even attempt to buff the NC MAX to OP levels, even as a experiment.

    Aside from how stupid it is to compare LMGs with Mattocks or whatever I have to ask, is the Betel overperforming and OP?
    What would you use to decide that because just from the weapon stats itself it has nothing aside from its heat mechanic that makes it really unique, hardly something as major like a 200-400 DPS difference like the Mattock had, which is something you dont even have to go into user stats to look for trends on how its performing, its just blatantly obvious that its much better than whatever you compare it with.

    I dont even keep track of what people consider 'the best' infantry weapons because I know the differences are generally so small the fight is decided more on who blinked first than any stat the weapon they use has. I do know the Betel is valued really high for some reason though, hard to miss that one really. Reason I bother explaining that is because im not sure what LMGs I should be comparing the Betel with to make you happy so if my pick is 'wrong' its not because im trying to skew stats but because its what I feel is the best comparison seeing how they are so similar.

    Saturday Feb 06 2021, picked because its recent and a saturday, lots of people playing.

    Uniques = How many people are using it
    Betelgeuse: 575
    MSW-R: 982

    KPU = The average Kills Per Unique ish?
    Betelgeuse: 47,332
    MSW-R: 25,932

    KPH = The average Kills Per "Time/Used" ish? The average user is obviously not getting over 1k kills with these that hour/day.
    Betelgeuse: 1134
    MSW-R: 1061,042

    Kills = Well, I guess its the total kills the weapon got that day.
    Betelgeuse: 27216
    MSW-R: 25465

    Average BR = Seems self explanatory as well.
    Betelgeuse: 88,014
    MSW-R: 64,354

    So, Is it overperforming and OP?
    I couldnt tell you, to me these stats dont make much sense. How can there be almost half as many people using the Betelgeuse compared to the MSW-R, getting almost twice as many kills per unique user as the MSW-R but the KPH is that close to each other?

    How can the metric that is supposed to be something like "Kills Per Time/Used" be almost the same meaning the people using the weapons are getting almost the same number of kills while using it during that time... but still the Betelgeuse is getting some 2x kills per user? Do all Betelgeuse users play 2x as long? Who knows, idk thats for sure.

    To make it even better if you want to use those types of stats, the next day on Sunday its kinda flipped, MSW-R is getting more total kills, higher KPH than the Betelgeuse but Uniques and KPU are mostly unchanged. How can the Uniques and Kills per Unique be similar between the days but the resulting actual kills and kills per "magic time" be wastly different?

    Wouldnt a similar number of unique users getting a similar number of kills = similar total kills and KPH?
    Apparently not and this is another reason why I dont bother with infantry weapons, their stats are generally so similar they are almost carbon copies of each other that the only way to try to make out any performance difference is trying to scry the user stats which are about as accurate as deciding what the weather will be like by gutting a pig and poking around its organs.

    I hope everyone appreciates the time this took, knowing how pointless it was going to be.
    Though if someone actually knows the exact science behind these please do explain them!
  7. That_One_Kane_Guy

    So for the BG you have 575 Users over the day (24h) getting an average of 47.332 Kills per Unique. This gives 27,215.9 kills for the day, divided by 24 which gives 1133.99
    MSW-R is 982*25.932/24 = 1061.51
    Hope that helps
    This has been done to death in other posts but it essentially boils down to the fact that despite the on-paper equivalence of the MSW-R or the Anchor, common-pool guns are simply never going to look as good as ones which are protected from newbies by a soft-skillgate. When you have a cherry-picked pool of users each guaranteed to have several thousand kills of experience before they even touch the gun, then make that gun a shiny version of one of the best LMGs in the game, yes you're going to have nice stats. That isn't the same as being overpowered.
  8. Liewec123

    so tell me which is which.
    everyone is losing their minds about mattocks but the two charts are completely the same.
    one thing absolutely destroying the competition, you know you can't tell which is which,
    because in both graphs every other weapon is mingled together and then the OP weapon is floating high above.
    tell me which is which.
    also its not cherry picked, its literally every faction specific LMG and max AI weapon,
    its not like i just chose to compare them to the bad ones.
    and the timing is since the patch that gave mattocks 4 pellets.

    so are you saying the data is inaccurate or doesn't line up?
  9. JibbaJabba

    Not sure if you read me. I don't care.

    I'm not using whatever stat you are looking at to determine the mattocks are OP.
    I find it equally useless determining the same for the Betel or anything else for that matter.

    Why don't you go make a "Betelgeuse needs nerfed" thread, have at it, and stop hijacking this one with your personal grievance.
  10. Liewec123

    i'm not hijacking s%%t.
    this is a thread about the mattock nerf and i'm pointing out that a completely analogous example has been just as OP for years,
    but while NC get hotfixed, the other weapon gets ignored.
    and if you don't care what the f%%k are you doing here?
  11. JibbaJabba

    No, it's not analogous and you are begging the question assuming your premise is already correct. Sorting this out with you is an effort I'm not going to spend in this thread.

    You're going down a rabbit hole is what you are doing. Stay on topic. NC Maxes.

    If you want to have a discussion on the betel, fire up a thread. We can perhaps address that assumption... IS it actually op?
  12. csvfr

    This is the kind of lie a Betlegeuse worshipper would put forth as the truth does not fit the MLG narrative. Fact of the matter is that Betlegeuse also fares high above the other weapons in KPU even with Q4 stats which is high ranking players only. Right now appears to be down but I'm sure if you look at the leaderboards of MSW-R and Betlegeuse, take the top 100 players, Betlegeuse will outperform among those too.

    There is no "equivalence" between the MSW-R and the Betlegeuse, or Anchor for that matter. MSW-R has access to SPA increasing its max damage range to 15m, Betlegeuse has less bloom increasing the range and bursting lenghts at which it remains accurate. This is a superior feature as the HS bullets to kill with 125-143 DMG is the same as with 143 DMG. And yes the Betlegeuse also sticks out in HS kill percentages.

    Many kills among top tier players may be carried out using a combination of headshots and bodyshots. The headshots have a 2x damage multiplier, the bodyshots are generally reduced to 0.8x damage by nanoweave. Then also the TTK/bullets to kill is the same with a flat 143 DMG as it is with a slight range falloff, meaning that there is no tangible benefit to using SPA. For example, with 3 headshots and 2 bodyshots to kill a non-overshielded enemy, it does not matter if the weapon does 143 damage or 132 (Betlegeuse @ 30m).
  13. JibbaJabba


    Jibba: Max stuff.
    Liewec: betelgeuse and max stuff.
    Jibba: you're hijacking my max thread.
    Liewec: Am not.
    Jibba: Are so.
    Csfvr: Betlegeuse stuff.
    • Up x 1
  14. That_One_Kane_Guy

    Don't have it, genuinely can't be bothered trying for it. Your stereotype is in another castle.

    Do not confuse my answering another poster's honest question with a desire to jump into this mudpit for the umpteenth time. Even if it wasn't derailing I can only repeat myself so many times before I start to get annoyed.
    • Up x 2
  15. AllRoundGoodGuy

    Obligatory "Vulcan harasser OP stuff"
    • Up x 2
  16. Botji

    Sure, if thats all you got from my post lets go with that.
  17. rajawaya

    This is the dumbest comparison ever, comparing a skill based weapon like the Betelgeuse which depends entirely on it's player's aim to be good or bad Vs. a 10000 ehp, shotgun arms, point and click, hardly no skill involved alternative. And the Betelgeuse is not OP, the originally idea for a max was to stop stalemates but all it does it cause them, and then you have a weapon which is just an Orion with major farming potential but isn't better then the Butcher.
  18. csvfr

    Post intended to illustrate the basis in relativness of your argument
    • Up x 1
  19. pnkdth

    I see we're also at a point where a new conspiracy emerges, the BG worshippers and the nefarious MLG agenda.