Before you call for an NC Max nerf...

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by JibbaJabba, Feb 10, 2021.

  1. Botji

    Its not hard to test them out even if you for whatever reason dont think the numbers on their own are obvious enough, both point in the same direction.

    Despite your math trying to make it seem weak, the Mattock is very much lethal even on full auto up to 40m and its only when you try to fire at the 50m targets you notice larger swings in reliability, its still very lethal even at 50m though but it depends more on the RNG.

    Targets at 30m typically take 3-4 shots(both arms)
    Targets at 40m typically take 3-5 shots, 4 being the most common
    Targets at 50m typically take 6-10 shots, sometimes even more but its kinda rare to need much more than 10.

    So.. Mattocks fire 3 shots per second. Its at this point everyone should realize the NC MAX got buffed through the roof because if you go to the range in VR and look at the targets at 40-50m it does not sound like a long distance but they are tiny planetmens, most people wouldnt even bother shooting at them with a MAX no matter what weapon, even LMGs are iffy at that point.

    Yeah, there is no problem with a MAX taking on average 0.5-1 second to kill basically anyone they see in a base no matter the range, with shotguns.

    Just for fun I spent some time blasting targets with Blueshifts since those seem to be the community #1 MAX range weapon and they seem to average 13-20 shots at the 40-50m targets but just like the Mattock its not rare to go over 30 shots due to RNG on the 50m ones.

    Blueshifts fire 6,1 shots per second... do you see the problem when they basically fire 6 bullets per second and it takes on average 10+ to kill anything past 40m?
    Even if you combine both arms its still just 12 bullets per second, at best the average TTK is around 1 second.

    So we have Blueshifts which people consider the best long range MAX AI weapon sitting on average 1-2 second TTK on 40-50m targets and then we have Mattocks with their 1-1.5 second average TTK. Even better is that Mattocks will also kill targets faster at close range, because shotgun... even even better is that all the NC MAX shotguns actually perform well up to 40m, even Hacksaw/Grinder which are the high RoF/damage weapons that one would expect to be short range.

    When I heard of the changes when they went to the test server I didnt even have to do any math to immediately think "OH F***!" but yeah, I did do math and that only secured the feeling. Testing them put them just slightly worse than my expectation but still firmly in the "Oh god why!?" category of what are the devs thinking?

    Just to make it clear, 40-50m are LONG range, most distances where MAXes are used fight in the 0-30m range and I would say the majority of those situations are still closer, at 0-20m. NC MAXes were nerfed for a reason and its honestly horrible to see the devs forget that so quickly.

    I wonder how whoever decided this thought?
    "Hmmm, NC MAX long range AI weapon is by far superior than the other factions MAX variants but weaker at range, lets buff it so it competes or even out performs them at long range as well!"
    "Right, lets take these overwhelmingly better close range variants and buff them to the point where they are better at range than the other factions versions too, for consistency ofc!"
    "Almost forgot, have to add some ammo capacity so they are just better in all ways, I could balance things with making them high DPS but low DPS sustain but that would mean I have any idea of what im doing which I clearly dont so haha! NC GO BRRRRRRT!"

    Buffing Mattocks with +1 pellets was stupid.
    Buffing other shotguns with 2x minimum damage was stupid, who could have guessed doubling it was a bad idea?
    Buffing them with extra ammo capacity was stupid, they are insane high DPS monster weapons in CQC killing people before you can react(clientside baaabyy!) and only held back by them NOT having the ammo to wipe the entire room or kill you from all the way across it!
    • Up x 1
  2. iller

    I'll definitely agree all the way with this part
  3. Liewec123

    So the whiners won.
    • Reverted pellet count from 4 to 3.
    • Max damage from 100 to 112.
    • Min damage from 75 to 92
    I thought Archer, Decimator and c4 were the best max counters, nope,
    turns out whining on reddit is far more effective than shooting the max twice.
    Apparently it only works for blue and yellow things though.
    • Up x 1
  4. pnkdth

    I was monitoring the data on voidwell and the Mattocks were over-performing by a lot.

    Just because there are counters to MAX units doesn't mean one weapon should be leagues better than the rest. Though it begs the question as to why the BG remains untouched when it is so clearly better than every other LMG (and has way more impact given the sheer number of HAs there are). Why it is so scary for them to admit they messed up with that weapon is beyond me. Reduce the ROF to 698 and call it a day. It will still be good just won't be 100% the best choice.
    • Up x 1
  5. Liewec123

    Yes, mattock lasted 7 days while betelgeuse has been OP for YEARS.
    Leads me to believe it was just the constant whining on reddit.

    Im glad that you mentioned Betelgeuse because I actually had this link copied to my clipboard
    waiting for someone to say "but it's overperforming!", I was then going to slap them with the
    realisation that betelgeuse has been overperforming for FIVE YEARS.
    (And by a similar margin to mattocks)
  6. Demigan

    I've always seen it as a perfect example of how self-selection of weapons can bias the results. (to be clear not your self selection, but how the player base makes their selection on what weapon to bring to a fight).

    Pistols have over PS2's lifetime performed similar to primary weapons like Carbines, yet pistols have obvious drawbacks to primary weapons. The reason is that these weapons aren't used in a vacuum, but in specific situations: When your primary ammo is dry and your enemy is still standing. This means these weapons are finishers, so whenever they are pulled out of your pocket they stand a decent chance of scoring a kill against primary weapons.

    When you engage in mid- to long-range combat it's basically a yes/no situation. Your weapon either can do it or it cannot do it. However with few exception almost every single long-range weapon can be effectively used in CQC. The drawback of a long-range weapon in CQC is much smaller, just being the first to fire accurately can easily mean the difference between winning and losing a battle in CQC even if you brought the "wrong" weapon.

    So shotguns are almost exclusively used in their area of expertise, while longer range weapons are more easily used in CQC where they don't shine as bright. This tanks the stats of longer range weapons despite the fact that they are effectively more useful for general purpose.
    You can even see this in the MAX stats: aside from the starter weapons the next most used and effective weapons are the long-range MAX weaponry for all 3 factions.

    I hope that their plan is to now work all MAX weaponry (not just NC) upwards until they all get more or less the same usage and performance, taking into account self-selection problems by reducing self-selection. For example by giving CQC weapons a secondary fire mode to deal with longer range targets but still not outperform long-range weapons so they are on more equal footing in each others range bracket.
    • Up x 1
  7. Liewec123

    i'll just mention that for kicks i worked out the average KPU from the past 7 days of Mattocks, and it was 27.
    meaning that on average a mattock max killed 27 people before dying.

    THEN i worked out the average KPU of Betelgeuse for the past 7 days...

    while NC were pulling mattock maxes and getting 27 kills per life,
    VS heavies were pulling Betelgeuse for free and getting 44 kills per life.

    nerf mattocks Amirite? o_O
  8. JibbaJabba

    Whelp Original Poster here.

    For those that followed my advice and remained calm, thanks! I hope you got a chance to switch over and try out the guns before judging. I think things have settled down quite a bit. Probably about as much as they are going to. So that said....

    It's time to re-Nerf the NC Max.

    No, not back to where it was. That always was overkill. But it's not right at the moment. My opinion isn't fully formed on all guns but I'll for now just say the Mattocks are OP as fuuuuuuuuuuuuudge.

    Happy to discuss what to do about it but I don't have a super strong opinion. I'm just generally of the mind that it's broken and does indeed need fixed. It's kinda jacking up the game right now.

    If you don't think they are op right now. Happy to not have that discussion with you. Waste of time.
  9. pnkdth

    The Mattock isn't a sidearm and even if we grant everything you say here the NC MAX is *still* performing better than both the VS and TR MAX (though the VS and NC MAX are close). Courtesy of PS2alert's data on KDR, kills, etc.

    KPU isn't per life. It doesn't care about anything beyond the average kill per unique user. How well you use it doesn't matter at all. I don't think I'll ever use it to measure anything other than how popular a weapon is with a faction or unless I have other data to put beside it to contextualise it.


    Generally speaking, is there even a platform which tracks weapon data anymore to the level dasanfall did?
  10. JibbaJabba

    Ahem. You worked out that on average VS heavies are getting 44 kills per life from the betelgeuse?

  11. Liewec123

    scratch that according to pnk KPU is how many people the average user is killing over a certain period.
    and for mattocks its 27, for Betelgeuse its 44.
  12. Campagne

    Not to say broken and overpowered things should stay that way, nor that the NC MAX is/was OP or not, I wouldn't know I stopped played some time ago.

    But just wanna say, isn't it a little funny how quickly NC stuff gets nerf'd? It's not a good thing for overpowered equipment to be left in that state for long but what about the ZOE, PPA, Vulcan, Striker, Gatekeeper, et cetera which all took months for nerfs when they were all blatantly overpowered?

    Phoenix took a day when it was too good at killing single infantry targets and a week after the counter-buff the NC MAX is nerf'd again. The hand of balance is swift for the NC but nary the TR or Vanu-forbid the VS.
    • Up x 1
  13. Liewec123

    Yup, took over a year for them to think "maybe the max that can only cqc shouldn't be getting beaten in cqc by the others?"
    But then when they finally do make the NC max relevant again and overturned it is nerfed within a week.
    Meanwhile over on VS...
    • Up x 1
  14. Somentine

    The common problem is that Maxes are stupid and all need their DPS to be nerfed into the ground. They should have been far more support focused right from the bat and been way lower Nanite costs.
    • Up x 1
  15. JibbaJabba

    The weapon that has a 450 nanite requirement accounts for less kills over a 24hr time? No way. :p

    I'm glad you're at least no longer claiming some 2kd heavy is getting 44kd when using the betel.
  16. JibbaJabba

    Liewec conveniently forgets how many years before the NC Max got that first nerf. C'mon man.
  17. Botji

    I have to question if all you NC defenders are trying to get OP toys or just wilfully ignorant at this point.
    What is hard to understand with this scenario?

    Weapon 1:
    887.5 DPS
    651 Sustained DPS(short reload time)
    625 Sustained DPS(long reload time)

    Weapon 2:
    872.3 DPS
    645.81 Sustained DPS(short reload)
    611.3 Sustained DPS(long reload)

    Weapon 3:
    1200 DPS max damage
    900 DPS min damage
    809.599 Sustained DPS(max damage)
    607.199 Sustained DPS(min damage)

    Find the Mattock, its not hard since it sticks out quite well from the others by just having a massive advantage in damage.
    Yeah, it probably had nothing to do with it being way over the top and why it was also the main focus for people. I wonder when everyone will catch on that the last buffs affected more than just the Mattock in quite big and wonderful ways?
    Doubling the minimum damage on shotguns is probably not a big deal??... well, some day im sure it will come up when someone notices what it means when a high RoF shotgun spew 5x pellets doing 50 damage minimum or the basic one with decent accuracy also fires 5x 50 damage shots. Probably not today though.

    If anyone is wondering, the new changes still puts the Mattock in a favorable position with:
    1008 DPS max damage
    828 DPS min damage
    680 Sustained DPS(max damage)
    558.62 Sustained DPS(min damage)

    Yes, the Mattock is now throwing out less damage if its doing the minimum damage compared to the others some ~14% less than the Mercy while its doing ~4.2% more damage up close.. sustained DPS. In short bursts the Mattock is still sitting on ~12% higher DPS up close whenever you are not reloading mid combat.

    Clear advantages and disadvantages though the damage disadvantage on minimum damage is kinda moot.. remember that the minimum damage on these are past 50m, you will rarely/never see this unless you are using your MAX in weird and strange ways so in any normal use you will have a DPS advantage or at least be on equal terms even if you are shooting at a MAX from across the room.

    Just a friendly reminder
    ^ That dude back at the wall is 50m away, you dont really shoot at those with ANY max weapon and expect to do anything(Vortex perhaps?!).

    Finally.. cant help but notice that the Mattock still has 4 pellets in its stats and from shooting at a wall etc I kinda think its actually shooting 4 pellets???

    **Edit: Uh, yeah meant to say somewhere that Weapon 1 is the TR Mercy and Weapon 2 is VS Blueshift.. whops.
  18. Demigan

    Stating the obvious much? Shotguns aren't side-arms, but they do have similar properties like side-arms. Namely how and when they are used.

    Also perhaps you didn't notice but I said that we should be looking at all MAX weapons and make them all equivalent to each other in their respective range bracket so we can't be going for the one most valuable range in the game (long range obviously, otherwise the CQC weapons would have been the best performing instead of the currently best performing long-range MAX weapons).
    • Up x 1
  19. csvfr

    I don't really see why it is bad for the NC max to have superior DPS per se. You could do similar calculations with the Prowler to figure out that it too has superior DPS. The thing is that this high DPS is counter-balanced by the Magriders mobility and the Vanguards healthpool. So it is fair, and gives the game more flavor than a symmetrical shooter as every specific weapon/class/thing in a faction has strong and weak sides it can be played against. Use a shotgun in CQC, a sniper at long range, a cloaked sunderer at uncommon deploy areas, a Banshee mosquito on open bases, etc. the list goes on.

    The NC heavy is naturally long-range inclined with the SAW as starter weapon. The NC max have previously (up until 2 years ago) filled this gap in the faction CQC viability by providing a fun and effective MAX unit. In comparison the VS heavy is good in CQC right of the bat with the Orion starter weapon and access to the Betelgeuse - the best performing LMG and arguably the only directive one worth unlocking. Therefore it is only reasonable that the VS max is less effective in CQC than the NC max, as the VS heavy is better than the NC heavy there. By adding the combat effectivness of the infantry units in a greater picture, it's considered balanced for the NC MAX to be as good as it is at close ranges.

    This can be done practically from the stats at which say that
    • The NC MAX has 373939 kills, 158963 deaths, and a KDR of 2.35
    • The VS MAX has 350822 kills, 157270 deaths, and a KDR of 2.23
    • The NC heavy has 3590090 kills, 3614542 deaths, and a KDR of 0.99
    • The VS heavy has 3614203 kills, 3446335 deaths, and a KDR of 1.05
    In a self-proclaimed massive team game it is irrelevant to consider in isolation if the the NC max is better than the VS max, or compare just the heavies. Rather by adding the kills from both the max and heavy kills one obtains that:
    • The NC infantry has 373939+3590090 kills, 158963+3614542 deaths, and a KDR of 1.05
    • The VS infatry has 350822+3614203 kills, 158963+3446335 deaths, and a KDR of 1.10
    TLDR: the VS infantry is overpowered. What does this lead too? Well from the same stat site it can be seen that the VS wins the most alerts on 3 of the 5 PC servers.
  20. Botji

    Basically "gives the game more flavor than a symmetrical shooter as every specific weapon/class/thing in a faction has strong and weak sides it can be played against. Use a shotgun in CQC, a sniper at long range"

    .... but NC should have shotguns that compete or are better at range than the other factions Max AI weapons? The whole thing we are discussing here? The disgusting range/damage buff NC Maxes got?

    Like.. what? How can you even attempt to use this as an argument here?
    The reason I am and I assume a lot of other people are up in arms about this is because the NC MAX got its only weakness buffed to a point it was equal or better than the other factions at range as well as buffing its already insane CQC ability with even more damage/ammo.

    Finally the devs dont balance the game how you explain it, they care quite a lot about things performing as other stuff in their category since most if not all nerfs are "This is overperforming in its category" nerfs and buffs follow the same logic.