Base building discussion

So, I'd like to talk about base building.
I like Base building it's fun building your own home base, but there is still a lot wrong with defending and attacking:

Let's pretend I have my base built and ready.
Then a number of things can happen:
1.) Nothing happens, nobody comes. Pure boredom.
2.) 1 or 2 stalker infiltrators come and either constantly sit in you pillbox and try to farm the spawntube, or try to kill a module. This is pure annoyance! It is not fun having to track a lone wolf cloaker sometimes for hours length as they always seem to return. I still don't get what they get out of this, but it is not experience or certs...
3.) Somebody really wants to kill your base and comes with a 20+ vehicle zerg. Base gone.

So about Point 2.):
The bases need some kind of defence against single players that annoy you. It is stupid that a full build military automated base cannot self defend against a single lone stalker cloaker. Bases need some kind of automated detection. Maybe give structures some kind of dark-light-lumifiber, decloaking anyone within a 0.5 m radius of any build structure (walls, bunker, pillbox, inf-tower) this would give planned bases and edge against cloaked enemies, while poorly build bases can still be harassed.

Spawntube killing: It simply has to stop!!!! Who the hell came up the idea that you cannot do anything for 1 second after spawning, while anybody standing in front of you can hurt you already?! Who?! This was the stupidest idea ever. Players are sitting right in the spawntube with one-hit-kill knives and kill anything that spawns!
At least give the tube the small blue invincibility shield that normal spawn tubes have.

Fighting vehicles:
I dont' want to talk about massive vehicle attacks, but about "even" fights 1 mbt vs 1 phalanx with rep module.
You will loose. Every time. The turrets simply overheat too fast, can't take any damage at all.
From my point of view the turrets needs a lot more Hitpoints. The turret is stationary while the tanks can outmaneuver you almost any time. The repair modules do not repair fast enough! It should at least be comparable to one engineer repairing.
The structure shield modules should give the turrets a deployment shield, like the one from the sunderer. One that effectively can take a moderate amout of hits before having to reload, to even further enhance turret defence.

And finally, the AI for the phalanx is utter crap! It almost never shoots. At least when it shoots it hits something, but it never kills anything. (Apart from really stupid people that is.)
The AI should also be able to shoot at targets they are not meant for, but only if idle of course.
This means an anti infantry turret would should at vehicles in range, but only if there is no infantry in range to shoot at. A flak tower would also shoot at infantry if given. And the AP tower would shoot at air targets if valid. (Not infantry, the one hit kills would be too much.)

Spawntube, Vehicle + Air Terminal:
Give us XP for letting people spawn already!
Give us the option to lock Vehicle + Air Terminals to Squad only, as of now the have the option but it simply does not work.

Glaive Cannon:
Useless. I don't know what to say. The range is too small, the areas where it can be used are non existent, the targeting darts can be destroyed, it is uncontrollable to which target it shoots, the damage is low, the projectiles slow.
Just convert this thing into a big mortar tower that shells at infantry behind cover by lobbing bulldog like grenades at them. Would be much more useful for base defense than this mess of a cannon.

I don't build bases myself but I'm a regular visitor. I think it is about placement. I generally see three types:

1. bases in out of the way places that are generally empty and unloved until someone from the other side wants some cheap xp for breaking them
2. bases under direct siege where they are collapsing under vehicle fire or farming infantry attackers like a good 'un
3. bases within range of the enemy and close enough to the FEBA to play an active supporting role in the figthing.

The third sort tend to be well manned (Planetmanned?) especially if they include a Sundy spawn point of Elysium Spawn Tube. Many people stay in them to defend and/or give long range covering fire and there is often combat around them but not too intense for the outcome to be a foregone conclusion from the get-go (as the main fighting is somewhere else neraby).

Trouble of course, is that choosing the right place to build seems to be heavily determined by chance and the ebb / flow of the battle. Unless it is just building to create VP with a Hive.

IDK if some organised outfits or individuals choose to build a base strategically i.e. in a place they actually want to use as their jumping off point for conquering a continent.................I don't remember seeing any Regionsay chat on the EU servers about things like "where would be the best place to build the next base guys?" but maybe it happens??

That's what you and your allies who built and occupy the base are.
To substitute for one or two allies, you also have modules that will automate turrets to some extent.

Primarily, you as the player and your allies as players should be the thing that is responsible for proper defense of your base. You all have things to help you, not do the work for you.

Give them what now?

I would like to point a better culprit for all these matters : Hives are not important enough. Or to be more precise, they absolutely must have an impact on the flow of the game either by locking an hex, or a link of the lattice system. In fact they should work like an actual base, you can destroy them as long as the link/hex is not connected/next to an enemy one. By the way it could bring back the old hex capture system, but limited to Hives.

Hex system : Just lock the standard bases from capture on this hex until the Hive is destroyed. Doable only if an adjacent hex is hold by an enemy.

Link system : A bit more tedious, as it would require to chose a specific link to be locked. If Base A is linked to B, and I build a Hive between them, enemy getting A won't be able to take B without destroying the Hive.

Bastard system : Lock any link in the hex, which is a bit of a compromise between the two systems above.

Notes : Not sure how VP for Hives would work with such a solution. Hive placement would be more strategic than tactical (bigger scheme vs own survivability of Hive). Would need a better reflexion of which system is the simplest to implement AND the most practical (without abuses) for players.

Then :
1. Problem vanishes as long as you don't put your base right next to the Warpgate (still, it would be interesting to prevent the enemy to get the "linked warpgate VP").
2. Will never occur without 3.
3. Everybody will want to destroy your Hive to get access to the next base.

Did you even read what i wrote?
The problem is that a single cloaker can do more damage to a fully decked ai-module base than any other class. They can go in safely, destroy modules relatively risk free, get kills from spawning players that simply cannot defend.
Maybe you should try base building sometime... I'd really want to hear what you have to say after 1 friggin cloaker is holding you up from doing anything else than searching just for him, and that for hours length.
And I am not kidding here, I had cloakers pestering my base for multiple hours, always the same guy.
Sometimes I even gave up the base because I was fed up of this crap.

Check the normal spawnrooms. They have a spawning tube aswell. And that has a blue shield. If you stand inside nothing can hurt you. Even if a base has been taken by the enemy already. If you just spawned and don't do anything nobody can do anything to you. The buildable tube needs exactly this!

I think hives are important enough the way they are already. The Problem is, before most even register that a base needs help, it is already gone.
Just take a look how long it takes on "normal" bases until players react to changing situations. Often it takes 10-15 Minutes.

Like I said, bases just need to be a lot sturdier. Give Defenders some time to arrive. Most bases, even if build by 3-5 players can be obliterated in under 5 minutes. That is just too short.

Word for word.
The basic purpose of an Infiltrator is to get to positions considered to the enemy as their safe zones and mess up their operations from that angle. In fact, base building is probably the first exceptional outlet of a skill they should have been demonstrating from day one in this game were its static base components more immersive. If components were not vulnerable enough to be taken down one at a time by a well-prepared target left free to his own devices, then the Infiltrator could not actually be the threat that he need be.

It is disappointing you immediately take the assumption that I don't do something because I lack the experiences you do or, more specificially, the negative reaction to them.
A squad's worth of base builders being held up for hours on end by a single return customer speaks more to the squad's lack of discipline than it does the flimsiness of constructibles. The base itself offers no additional complications to what should be the tried and true search and eliminate operation that dealing with a cloaker normally presents. It shouldn't matter how many times he comes back.

Ok so two things.

1) Learn to place your Xiphos Turret in a place where it has maximum visibility of all base structures.

2) Place your AI module in such a way that the Infil has no good place to hide from said Xiphos Turret while taking it down. Then overlap your AI modules.

Infil problem solved, spawn tube farming via Infil solved.

Max out deploy shield and put it on your sundy. Park one in your base away from your spawn tube, now you have two spawn options.

I've learned the hard way that you use the AI Turrets as a force multiplier. For Air and Infantry, get your *** in the Spear Turret and let the AI work. For Vehicles get on your engineers AV turret or pull a lightning out of a vehicle spawn and let the AI distract them with the Spear Turret.

Unless you have enough people to man ALL of your turrets, you want to let the appropriate AI do it's work and then synergize with it to get the most out of skeleton crew base defense.

Remember to use world terrain to your advantage. They can't blow up a mountain or giant boulders. Funnel them to be forced into your killzone in order to attack you.

Every idea you mentioned is awesome. I agree that all turrets should shoot at everything. I also think they need to be a little less specific so they can all do at least a little damage to anything, as right now it's too easy to just limit line of sight from the single turret that can hurt you. For this to work the anti-vehicle gun would have to be switched to a multi-shot canon so it doesn't ohk infantry and the anti-infantry gun is still best for it's intended role.

I think your repair module idea is spot on. A single rep module should keep pace with a single tank. This does give Lockdown Prowlers an edge, but it is what it is.

I think the Glave is good at what it does (taking down shields), but there need to be more options, like the mortar you mentioned. You should be able to build an AA missile option, Anti-Vehicle mortor, Glave, Anti-Infantry mortor, or a high powered radar, but only one of those per silo. This would let bases highly specialize depending on their placement, and give enemies a reason to fight hives instead of ignore them.

They need a better faction-wide alarm, that increases in visibility depending on if something is just being attacked or if something has been destroyed. Right now the only defense is having a person just sitting at the hive, doing nothing, with a full squad on call to come to the rescue, it sucks.

For all these buffs, I really think the Glave needs to be much more powerful to balance things out. It would really need to pound bases for there to be any chance in taking out a monster hive. Enemy Glaves should be a target of the highest priority. Either that or space out where sky shields can be placed and make them really drain cortium.

I saw that Wrel did a video on a large hive battle, and thought it was awesome, but he needs to realize that that was a 1/300 battle, and most of the time base fights just aren't fun. It would be cool if he'd really dive deep in to an aspect of he game and fix it, one issue at a time.

I just came up with an idea to integrate base building into the game:
Remove the no deploy zones, completely.
Remove that you cannot build on pre-build structures.
Remove capture points inside "normal" bases, instead just make that this would be possible build point for a capture point.
That's right, if you want to capture a base, build your capture terminal.
then tie this into the same mechanic that the hive would have, meaning it gets a shield bubble from a structure module. making it hardened against attack.
This would also mean, to turn a point you would need to destroy the construct and build a new one from your faction there.

I revive this thread because i am angry right now and i really hope some dev really reads this. (Like they recently stated they would.)
I have everything that can be build, but nontheless it is all pretty usless if you cannot even defend against one trank.
Sure, you could build with more Players together, but there simply often are None available to do so.
Even a base that has been carefully build by one Player should be able to defend itself against single vehicles....
It is just pretty frustrating to see your base gone for good if just one mbt Shows up.
And defenders? There simply are None. Players do not care, the reinforcement module is totally useless because nobody will depoloy to your base and help defend. Sure it is part fault to the somewhat toxic (and often really stupid) community.
It is just not right that Building a base is just worthwile with a full squad of builders, that all have spend thousands of certs to be able to do so (most dont even get base Building stuff because of the high Investment) and on top of that another squad with vehicles on the call to help defend. That is just too much asked.
The main issue is that one Phalanx alone cannot stant against a tank. They just hide, shoot, hide, shoot and so on. There is no Chance that the turret survives, never. After that the danger for the tank is gone and he can shoot your base to pieces like a giant cert pinata.

1) You are not really supposed to stay in your base the whole time. If nobody comes, just redeploy in a fight. It's what the warning module and AI modules are there for. If the base gets attacked quickly redeploy to it. This needs a lot of certs to be able to do but it should work if your base is well defended.

2) Just put an A-I turret in front of the spawn tube, then you also can't get farmed when redeploying. Alternatively you also can put the spawn tube right in the entrance of these pillbox structures, with the tube facing the inside of the structure. This way nobody can get into the structure without spawning into it, but you still can get outside by jumping on the tube from the inside.

However, usually it is your own fault when getting farmed while spawning. It actually only happens when the base is already pretty much captured by the enemy. Either this, or it's badly defended.

3) Build more AV turrets. They are the most important factor for a good defence. A good base always has lots of AV turrets.

My bases are not defended poorly, it is just that you have to choose to either have a somewhat save spawning point vs vehicles by placing the tube inside, or being somewhat save from cloakers by placing it outside. (Although I must point out that it is fairly possible to stalker cloak someone in plain view from a turret by decloak-knife-cloak before even getting hit by the tower.

Having to place the spawntube facing inwards is just another Band-Aid, that shouldn't even be necessary. It is wonky gameplay and I hate it. The tube is there to spawn defenders for a quick deploy. If you lock in your own defenders. (IF any spawn at all), it will only encourage them to redeploy and not help you.

As frustrating as dealing with people abusing the spawning delay can be, it is not the main issue a base does not survive.
The main problem is the phalanx and vehicles.
More phalanx means more builders needed, and those are often not available. Building must be fun and worthwhile even when building solo! I sucks that any mbt can shoot your base into pieces... While building the base takes at least 10-20 min, spawning a tank and killing it takes about 2-5 min. That is simply not fair.
The risk and reward is seriously unbalanced here. Tanks do not fear bases at all.
I have myself often driven up to a base, even while under fire, hidden directly beneath it and repaired, then shot the modules through small gaps in the walls (and there are always some gaps) It is fairly easy to hide from the phalanx, it needing 4-5 hits to kill is even worse, gives me a lot of time to dive under some object and repair. I have killed bases without even attacking the phalanx itself, that alone should be enough to see that something is wrong and that it is severely unbalanced.

Why?! Base Construction Needs serious buffs, not nerfs....
It's not like the anti infantry turret was overpowered in any way.

If you want to nerf automated defenses fine, but at least make it usable when someone is using it! Which is sadly not the case at all for the infantry turret.

I didn't dump 30k certs into base Building so that nobody fears my defenses like "at all"...
This is a total ripoff.

Just play Minecraft or buy a Lego set

This is my personal review regarding the construction system since the latest "critical mass" update:

I used to build a lot before the recent changes.
I liked to build my own personal fortress.
I liked to build orbital bases, i nuked a lot of players and last time i checked i was still No. 2 in the orbital leaderboard.

But since the update base building has somewhat become useless.

From my experience it has to do with several things:

First of all the time the continents are open are pretty short now.
Building orbitals takes not only a lot of time but also involves a lot of waiting and planning ahead, all for the big maybe of one or two "big hits" with a lot of kills.

I have seen contients close before i ever had a chance to even fire my orbital.
Of course i had that happen before the critical mass update too, but not that often in comparision.
It's surely happening a lot more now.

Another thing are the defenses, really they are nerfed hard...

The xiphos is already so bad that any heavy assault can jump litterally through the bases from one end to another and survive.

Now the phalanx is utter crap aswell.
You cannot kill any infantry with it.
Only total idiots let themselves be hit 2 times in a row.

And the anti vehicle damage is a joke, it is a tank tickling cannon now.
I haven't made any vehicle kill with it since the update...
Yes, it really is THAT bad now.

Repairing is also totally pointless now as any vehicle will outdamage you.
Any MBT can kill any tower despite having a repair module and an engineer repairing within 10 seconds.

Congratulations Daybreak, you reached the point where it is more effective to NOT build any towers at all.
Bases have a higher chance to survive and not getting attacked at all if i just don't build any defensive towers.

Because of towers being totally useless and bases never getting any random defenders, nobody builds hive bases anymore.
All just throw down a silo and a hive somewhere and hope that nobody cares...
And sadly most of the time this works perfectly.

Once the 25k cortium are refined, bases have no use now, just abandon it or decon it for good.

Really i don't know where you are planning to go with the constuction system, but if you make it impossible to defend bases then you might aswell just remove this part of the game alltogether.

There need to be incentives for players to be inside bases and defend!

First of all they need to feel saver there than outside.
Players need the feeling to sit inside a hard to break fortress and the automated defenses play a big role there...
Where are the directives for player made base defense?
Where for refining cortium?
Where for destroying hive?
Where for orbital strikes?
Give players xp bonus (like the hive proximity bonus) for defending bases, being it a real hive or an orbital.

And last of all i wished that you would either remove the cortium cost from the vehicle terminals or finally give us the option to lock the usage to squad/platoon.
Most of the time i just don't build any vehicle spawn at all.
And why? Because of random idiots draining my cortium by spawning one lighting after another and driving away for good.
I really have better things to do than to fetch cortium because the the 20th idiot that really has to pull his lighting inside my base.

Yesterday we had a little fun talk amongst our base builders and we where talking about the inherent flaw in the current base (hive) building meta.
And we soon agreed that the biggest problems in the current alert system are, that there is no need to defend and hold any hive base.

When it comes to refined cortium the meta is "what you have you keep" and that is a bad mechanic.
So currently all just throw down an unprotected hive and even if someone goes around destroying cores, it is only a matter of time till the core comes back to you in form of neutral core.
So the only possible way now to keep a faction from completing the cortium alert goal is total supression. Destroy all hives from the enemy and build/occupy all 7 cores to keep enemy hives from running.
THAT is a lot asked and so nobody does it.

After we all pretty much agreed that this is nearly impossible we thought what would encourage players to hold and defend hives?
And i came up with a pretty simple idea:
I call it "The 100% Threshold".

So basically you need at least 100% core efficency global for your faction to refine with 100%.
Anything higher and you refine with the sum of the cores, the same system as it is now. For example a 100% + a 50% core are 150% total. Nothing special here.

So what happens if you are under 100% total?
You loose refined cortium. Up to the point you are at Zero again.
For example you only have a 50% and a 30% core running = 80% total = you loose cortium at the same speed a 20% core would refine it now.

This would of course also mean that the new minimum refining speed would be 100% once reached.
If you have 99% you get nothing. (In fact you would loose with 1% hive worth if you already had any refined cortium from before.)

Once the 25k cortium are reached. (And the 41% land control criteria is NOT met.) You will need to hold at least 100% global for your faction or you will drop lower, no longer fulfilling the 25k cortium criteria.

If both criteria are fulfilled (25k Cortium + 41% Land) then an alert will trigger and continue as it is now.

I just had to share this idea, because i think it is very simple and would lead to lot more building of real bases and fights inside.

(Of course i still think bases should be tweaked, especially the turrets, but one step at a time.)

So what you are talking about, essentially, is that each faction has a "virtual" -100% efficiency HIVE at all times, which drains Cortium at the same rate a single 100% HIVE would increase it.

I like this suggestion.
Please implement.

Also, make the drain rate pop-specific: underpop gains a slower drain bonus.

Yes, you could say that. There is always someone out there that can explain it shorter.
But with one change:
If you say it like this a single 100% core would produce 0%, but i wanted it to be a real threshold, so 100% would produce 100%. (Otherwise we would need more then 7 cores in the game and would make the system complex again.)
Have 200% gain 200%
Have 100% gain 100%
Have 0% loose -100%
Have 99% loose -1%

Glad that you like it.

I am not a fan of any pop bonus or malus. So I'd vote for keeping it simple and even for all.

As someone who searches out and groups up with the underdogs, this game is terrible as far as the under-pop side getting ****** at every turn. Whether it be a nanite generation bonus, reduction in spawn cooldown, or vastly greater XP, the underdogs need something more than what they get.

Yeah... But i think, as we are talking about a core mechanic here and locking of entire contients, i just don think it is good to help underpops in this way.
VS on cobalt often have severe underpop, yet they manage to totally dominate the server and win a lot of alerts.
Making it even easiert to them, just because of pop would be plain wrong.
And you simply cannot fine tune it for every server. So keeping it even is still the best i think.

More XP OK, Lots more, fine!
But easier locking? No.
More resource? No.

But really I don't want to argue about anything at this stage, because getting the approval of many users and hopefully getting through to the developers is clearly more important than beginning to fine tune now.