Balance Pass Post 1: Vehicle Weapons and the Harasser

yeah Bf2142 had motion mines and EMP mines..... They worked out great and I'm really surprised that future tech based sort of games did not just rip off the entire idea for their own games.... you could outrun them if you had a HUGE head of steam going but most of them you still got dinged.. EMP mines + motion mines worked great as a trap that took effort.. Mines could not be thrown and used like c4 being you had to be moving to set them off. The could be picked back up if you needed to..
It was a just an all around good "item"...

as for no comp..
My crew tried it out the other night as a lark for a couple of hours worth of Harasser runs.
So it was a max everything Halberd Harasser we took comp4 off and replaced it was Nanite repair 4 being it was only a few hundred to certs up to.. The auto repair was a total waste being you never just take a "dent" in a Harasser like you do a tank, you get hammered and just have to repair..

We still did ok if no one was really around, as I figured we would..Solo junk player sort of gear was still dead.. so on a low pop server in a very low pop sort of area, it was fine..

but it 100% removed even the idea of the Harasser having a place on the battle field as soon as we even got near what PS2 is meant to be, larger battles. Just got vaporized before we even knew the first shot had even landed... I don't mean like oh gee run run but we get hit........and dead. I'm talking 100% dead before one of us can even finish the word "wait" in the sentence "Wait, what just happened?"..lol

yeah that's not balanced.. If anything Comp4 should become the normal health/armor set up.. Remove the comp armor option and let Harassers have some other options.. Being right now, no comp = no place on the battle field.. Unless you just never try to get into the fight, at all..

That's exactly how the Harasser should be. It's a 3 person buggy; a transport for when you don't need to pull a sunderer. It lets you bring in a MAX buddy, and an extra person so it's a bit better than a flash. It has some weapons so that you can defend yourself and use your speed to escape. It shouldn't be something that devastates armor and infantry alike, like a faster tank with armor on all sides.

Its role is currently somewhere between a lightning and MBT, while it should be somewhere between a flash and a sunderer in terms of battlefield effectiveness.

It's fine being between a lightning and a MBT....
Being a two or three person vehical it fosters more over all team work from some given faction to use it and one can always "choose" to use the Harasser in a down graded sort of fashion. Where as if it started out as a lower level vehicle there would no where else for it to go.. "Hey get in..." and done, skill ceiling hit..
Pull it to transport a few people a few 100k, then throw it away... Just like people do with a flash now..

How does that option make the game more interesting? How does taking something off the battle field make a video game based around 100s of people fighting in combined arms more dynamic? If anything the game needs MORE vehicle options, more weapon and rocket launcher options (but not more lock ons).. More mines options (emp/motion) just more stuff over all.. etc etc..

the game over all gains NOTHING, not one single thing by taking away battle field options. Maybe certain players are happy not to face something, the same way I would be fine if there was no air of any nature in this game. Also would be fine with snipers not being able to snipe. Yet that too would not help the game's battles be more dynamic in nature..

I really do find the whole anti-harasser thing to be quite amusing given the lack of good Harasser crews I see.. Maybe it's just Connery but I don't even see that many Harassers crews rolling around for the most part.

How about harasser that slows down and gets worse handling as it gets damaged? and composite armor should partially negate speed and handling **** as harasser is damaged. and remove top weapon. My little Planetside: Nerfing is magic

But a Sunderer also can be a two or three person vehicle... perhaps even a 12 person vehicle. Thus it stands to reason that the Sunderer should be four times as powerful as a Harasser, six times as powerful as a MBT, and 12 times as powerful as a Lightning!

Clearly this line of reasoning is ridiculous. Even if it takes more people to crew a Sunderer than a MBT or Lightning, a Sunderer should be weaker than a MBT or Lightning because of its role as a transport.

Likewise even though the Harasser takes more people to crew it than a MBT or Lightning, the role of the Harasser is to... harass. Not to outtank tanks. Most people would call its intended role to be a "glass cannon", something that can dish out hits but break very easily.

So let's do something that is based off of a theory of yours?

A defensive ability?

I see it used all the time by tankers to hunt down vehicles and infantry trying to cower their way away.

I plan on using it if you ever make HE a viable load out choice again.

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Also your harasser weakening on composite armor seems as if you're among those who don't actually play the game anymore because you met up with a good driver/gunner combo. It's 2 hits and run or everyone makes you done in a completely certed composite armor load out Harasser when fighting enemy tanks that aren't stock lightnings.


Learn to aim tankers.
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You really need to also look into making the tank mines smaller than your living room couch again. That would make those tank mines a bit more viable, or at least make it to where they are less visible, with camo or something after they are placed instead of resting on the surface like some triangle shaped miss-colored watermelon.

Drivers should watch where they are going or take note of what's around them during a firefight!Stop with the need for over sized clown that are dumb down tank mines that a family of four could use as a foundation for a nice house. Make those that want to constantly stat pad out of a vehicle have to use the eyesight they clearly have, to see the mines, and other threats around them much as they see the forums.

No, I said "fosters more over all team work" and it does, so that's why it's rewarded with being better then the lightning in 1vs1 contests. Being the lighting is balanced around full XP for everything you do and being able to drive plus shoot at the same time. Clearly this balance works and is thought of as a HUGE reward for most people given how many lightnings I see compared to Harassers or even MBT..

people should of abandoned the Lightnings in droves given how much better the Harasser is in combat. It should be a rare sight to even see one trying to fight anything outside of skyguard'ing. Yet that's not the case, not even close. Why? Bonus of the drive + shoot + full XP for everything you do is way more desirable for most players.. That is the balance, being you don't balance a 100+ player sort of combat game around 1vs1 contests... We do in the forum of course but that's not in game..

and the sundy IS the most powerful team work vehical in the game, by far... it's balanced around being pure mass troop transport.. So by it's very design it should always have a ton of people inside.. Some Maxes or 12 HA etc.. all ready to kill anything they see as soon as they see it, it can even spawn an unlimited amount of back up troops..
it's why the sundy has weaker weapons, the power comes from being able to haul 12 players + an option to spawn even more..

where as the Harasser can only haul around 3 players so it gets a much more powerful weapon and more options to fight.. It started out day one as a pure combat vehical.. First one I ever spawned, DeadLamb's Harasser baby #1 had Racer 3, Comp 4 and a Halberd. It came out the warp gate killing stuff all of 2min old.. Yet "It's only transport!!"

The only argument the "it's transport only!!" group has to fall back on is the vocal call out in game. That's it, nothing else.. Maybe what we really need patched is the spotted call to be "Harasser spotted!"

I'm re-quoting WyrdHarper for making so much sense it hurts.

Hurk!

Logic and reason!

No! My time on forumside has made me allergic to these things!

Ive discussed the changes annaunced in this thread with my other members at my outfit. My main question is, how do you actually come to this ideas and how do you plan them?

Lets take the radar changes for example, they will offer the option to build ams/radar and shield gate/radar sunderers, they will also allow tanks to carry smoke and radar at the same time etc. So your balance changes might actually open up some new balance issues (not to speak of missing sunderer parts for adding ams/radar together).

I realy dont understand why the devs talk again about balance. When will they start talking about finishing stuff that is half way finished for more than 6 months now and when will tehy start to fix all the bugs that effect balance that are in the game since release.

Just to name some stuff:

As mines got changed so they no longer detonate on staying vehilces they said it will be a fix for the moment and they will work on a final solution. They said we might get dmg immunity for the mines so we can build mine fields that need to be disarmed or moved through to remove. Also mines got larger to stop the bug that they fall through the world. We still dont have this final solution and its over 6 months ago.

As C4 started to despawn on respawn they also said its a solution for the moment with a final solution to come. We didnt see any of the solutions yet, C4 is not even disarmable. A solution to let C4 stay after respawn but make it unable to get triggert, so you can only shoot it and make it disarmeable didnt make it into the game.

To name some bugs:

Skyguards and the ground vehicle mounted PPA can shoot through vehicle shields. While the Lasher cant shoot through vehicle shields.

Some Base shields are bugged and let Shield Gate Diffuser vehicle not through.

Its possible to use stuff like fire supression several times without waiting for the cooldown if players swap seats and the new pilot has certed it, meaning that cooldowns are not vehicle based, instead playerbased, as long as the other player has certed it. And there is a good bunch of players exploiting this.

C4 sometimes refuses to stick properly.

C4 and Tank Mines sometimes dont do dmg on vehicles. Vehicles that have this bug also dont set off Tank Mines at drive over.

Sticky grenades fall into the ground if you throw them to close to you.

C4, Grenades and Mines that you throw dont get thrown if you die within a second of that action.

Vehicle ram dmg is not very consistent, the results can vary alot even if you have the same situation again.

Vehicles sometimes directly explode wenn they hit someting sideways of them instead of being dmged.

Its also possible to splash through some walls and spawn shield when using UBGL.

And some other stuff:

The Games Input System seems to be still unable to skip Commands that where given to fast. We still have guys in the game using macros to turn semi auto guns into full auto guns, especialy since pistols with very large magazines got added you can see these guys.

The netcode is still crappy and may also be exploitable. More than once ive seen guys flying around completely stable and starting to lag once they got shot. We also allready had "Balance changes" that mainly reduced the bad effects of the netcode (the first ZOE nerf to speed was mainly in place to remove the warping caused by bad code).


A big portion of the stuff i posted here is in the game since release and didnt yet get fixed or reworked properly, some may effect balance since them and i realy would like to know when we will actually see all the stuff fixed befor they start to balance around again.

The game is filled with a ton of apples vs oranges sort of balance issue that don't line up to each other.... The lightning is a really good example of that.. It's only +1 over a Harasser is being able to drive + shoot at the same time with full XP gain from one's actions, but people still flock to it way more then they do Harassers..So IMO that balance works on some level.. I don't understand why but clearly it does given how many lightnings I see..

the run away, repair and come back in theory should not be that big of a deal in a game based around 100s of people fighting.. It mostly comes into play in solo 1vs1 fights, something that with the lattice, higher gear costs and so on should not happen as much as they seem to for some reason..

tough position for the SOE devs to be in right now. They have a game marketed and promoted as a huge massive scale shooter. 100s and 100s of people in a huge combined arms fight but the whole time they keep trying to balance to the whims of the solo sort of players too.. IMO they can't do both..

I still want to see how the patch turns out before passing any sort of judgement but it's a little strange to sit and watch them slowly removing or adding things to the game that seem to me to run counter to the idea of having 100+ player combined arms sort of battles. Even stranger that people seem to sit back and cheer for it to happen..
as if the game should let everyone solo counter everything no mater what they "brought to the fight" themselves. Still waiting until they break down and let INF class kill MBT tanks some how too..

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here. Your first point is "Sunderers are actually super powerful because they are transports that can disgorge 12 infantry so they have weaker weapons." Your second point is "Harassers are less powerful because they transport less infantry so they have more powerful weapons."

Assuming that weapon power goes up as carry capacity goes down, then the Lightning should have the most powerful weapons in the game, should it not? It doesn't transport any infantry at all! Yet quite obviously the Lightning only outclasses the Flash in terms of weaponry.

Well you know, there is the whole name of the vehicle that suggests it should not be an absolute destroyer on the battlefield. For most people, to "harass" means:

Not to mention that the Devs introduced the Harasser as a hybrid transport in the GU08 patch notes:

Most importantly is that the Harasser must be a transport because the role of the "glass cannon" is already taken by the Lightning. If the Harasser fills the same role as the Lightning (except doing the same job better) then that is a gameplay mechanics issue.

The difference between a Harasser and a Lightning should be:
Want to use three or four vehicles to rapidly transport your squad to the next objective while retaining a greater self-defense capability than a Sunderer? Take a Harasser!
Want to pull some vehicles to flank the enemy and perform rapid reaction strikes? Take a Lightning!

Differentiating the roles of the Harasser and the Lightning would encourage players to pull both. As it stands the Harasser can do anything the Lightning can do except do it better (except AA duties).

In a team work based game like this one it's not really a good idea to reward solo gear with more firepower then team work based gear. The idea is to foster more team work, more team everything not one person solo doing more then a "team" action could do. It's why IMO the cost of the lightning should be dropped down to show it's rank with in the game.. again, it's not balanced by combat vs other gear, but by solo XP gain and being able to drive and shoot at the same time..

It's also why I don't think the ENG should of been given a long range "HA like" AV option in the turret. Same theme but not sure medic should of gotten gear killing level C4. Max or AI weaker level C4 maybe but again, too much cross class over lap vs forcing a squad etc to use team work. Err but that's another thread..

IMO the whole transport/buggy issue is really a non-starter.. It's a total BS game world where every single rule about everything is pure computer code fantasy that is not grounded in anything other then the whims of the programers. It's a realistic as they wanted to make it, nothing more.
They could make the Flash shoot the rider off like a yard-a-pult where his head would one shot kill a sundy on impact... Maxes could punch people and send them 200+ feet up into the air (sort of want to see that lol) etc etc..

SOE thought they could throw a fast attack vehical into the game with out all that many issues, for whatever reason it just not turn out that way. I fear the players left in this game want to be able to counter everything at all times no mater what class or gear they happen to be in and they want to be able to do it solo with out team support of any nature..
I'll admit I'm not too far off from thinking like that myself some times...

^^^^^^^^
Love this guy's logic.
And ability to easily write out his points.

Anyways, here's a little story for you.

Evilmind and I have developed as a good crew pair for any vehicle that requires it.
We usually Rip most of you noobs who can't get it together to shreds. Or pay attention
But here is what happened for the hour that we tried to face some Vanu magriders in the area between quartz ridge and Indar excavation; The NC were primarily useless over there. They tried pulling a tank column, couldn't push out for more than 10 minutes before being pushed back again. Now This ONE magrider crew was able to do this.
IN EACH engagement with them where we tried to win. AND KEEP IN MIND their Magrider was as heavily certed as our harassers. They had front armor etc.
That Magrider that included a secondary gunner, each time we started shooting them. IMMEDIATELY turned to face us. and HIT us with its first salvo from both it's main gun and Secondary. We were down to a quarter health. And of course at that time it is now time to evade run and repair. This crew was good enough that each time we were starting to get close to having full health so we could switch back to the turret, they brought it back down to one more shot = death. We were barely able to get back into our gunner seats and fire off another shot before having to get back in. And when They needed to repair they decided that instead of chasing us down while we were low on health. They sat behind the big rock formations east just outside the north end of Quartz ridge and repaired themselves. That reset the entire battle and again it took us around 5 rounds to their front to get them to smoke heavily.

In the end when we finally screwed up at low health they got the kill shot off on us.
That battle, was only possible because BOTH crews were heavily certed and had good skills.
We fought literally the same guy another 2 times. And then while trying the old Sit back and shoot them from a distance, it didn't really work because the tanks we shot at, knew exactly where to turn after they got hit, and start firing at us.
The Harasser's ability to kill and survive relies on certing heavily into it, and being partnered with a friend you work well with and are both skilled in your jobs.
As soon as that is countered by numbers focused on it. Or faces anyone with at least some competence, it's gone.

Right now what I see the problem is for most of you is one of these reasons.

1. You're primarily infantry and never actually work with more than 1 or 2 people at a time to accomplish anything, and you usually just follow the zerg.
2. You like driving your MBT but rarely find anyone you like having as your secondary gunner/(other reasons) and you are only using half of your DPS potential.
2a. You have yet to cert into your MBT so that it has more than a 1 minute lifespan. And you still have yet to acquire accuracy skills.
3. You're a Lightning and you are one of another group of soloists that thinks their equipment should always have an advantage regardless of how less situationally aware and skilled you are.
3a. You're a lightning and you haven't certed anywhere near as much as harasser crews Cert into their harassers as your lightning.
3b. You do not realize how much more powerful your other buyable weapons are, nor how powerful your viper is because you can't hit all your shots.
I could go into 40 more but I won't.

Here is what I see the harasser as,
A vehicle that can break armor column stalemates if neither side can gain air superiority, and bomb the other.
A vehicle that does not have to rely on tons of people repairing it at once to tank a bunch of fire from massed tanks/infantry/etc.
You know what I rarely see in armor columns? That isn't provided by anyone other than me usually when I show up.
A REPAIR SUNDERER, Level 5 or higher.
Yeah that bad boy that Repairs faster than a repair tool and does with a large AOE.
Which again utilized as something to HELP your TEAM stay alive and push.

The Harasser is a vehicle that can take a two or three man team and be very effective on their own against unorganized and very low skill opponents.
It rewards finding those people who you can work best with. It rewards you for being the only vehicle willing to find a way to flank the enemy or just charge right in while both sides shoot at each others tanks.
It rewards you for finding areas say like A jump pad before a biolab that an enemy is using heavily and killing the infantry who are incapable of preparing themselves to stop you in your tracks.

What I think many of you hate about the harasser, and ask for it to be nerfed, is it seems to be the highest reward for skill ratio vehicle there is. As ALL other vehicles have been nerfed into the ground, and Made very vulnerable to infantry at all times, even the incompetent ones.
Liberators, any amount of accurate flak usually drives them away or kills them if they are stupid.Or Just plain mass lock-ons like turds.
MBT's Slow moving, not as hard hitting as before, and again have plenty of things that counter it when it is alone.
Lightnings, Your precious solo tank that you think should be nearly as good as an MBT that has only one guy in it.
ESF's, Well ROFLpodders get blown to bits by flak, or by air predators like me.

The harasser as of this moment is fine the way it is.
The only balancing anything needs in relation to it right now is YOUR SKILL LEVELS, and your teamwork capabilities.
You nerf the Harasser SOE, IT will die on the battlefield and no longer be used by any skilled harasser crew. It's stats will plummet, and it will show just how wrong this change is.


To All of you who want the harasser nerfed, please try it out MANY times for yourself in many combat situations. See for yourself how difficult it is to use when you face enemies who are as good or better than you. Driving another harasser, a lightning, or an MBT.
Especially without the use of the Composite armor. Then come back and post what you feel.
All harasser crews have always been on the other end of the barrel at some point when they don't pull one. And we just accept when a good harasser crew knows what they are doing. And if we don't work with others or use I dunno a rocket pod ESF or a Liberator to counter it. It will last as long as it isn't focused and the Crew doesn't mess up.
We need to stop listening to people who post who don't have the whole picture and also can't use their own vehicles to at least half their potential. Including having their MBT's always have a decent secondary gunner.

Post scenarios where The harasser shouldn't win, why it shouldn't win, but exactly how it wins.
Almost all of the scenarios include infantry who don't work together or pay enough attention to kill it.
An MBT with 1/2 or one that has barely any certs and a crew with very low accuracy.
An MBT that doesn't react to being hit by said harasser and removing the advantage it has when it can shoot your critically damaging rear plating.
A sunderer that isn't using its two base basilisks which when used together ARE VERY effective at either killing or Driving away a harasser.

The harasser as is, cannot hope to do anything on the battlefield if it can't repair on the move, nor if it loses the composite 4 armor.
Sadly, that removes any reasoning or willingness to use any other ability in that slot, because its low base health literally requires that armor to survive any decently challenging engagement.


Devs please actually drive the harasser yourself, go see how you do with it, with and without the armor. Show at least some skill between the basic and intermediate level. And go see what happens when you encounter solo players, low skill unorganized players, and poorly manned vehicles. And then what happens when you face organized squads, high skilled players, and effectively manned vehicles.

This is the last post I'll make on this thread about the harasser. Wrote enough for like 5 posts...
Feel free to correct me where I may be false.

A Sunderer with 12 players inside can kill any of the vehicle types with absolute ease; if you fail to do so thats to blame on the people inside and not the vehicle.
It's kinda amusing how players think THEY should know what role a vehicle has to play.
BTW the flash is spotted as an ATV ( armored transport vehicle) I think it clearly lacks a Dalton main gun and a bigger health pool.

ATV stands for All-Terrain-Vehicle just pointing that out right there.

Gonna add [sarcasm] [/sarcasm] next time sorry.
Point being devs clearly just reused the spotting audio for the harasser. Yet people base their arguments on an audio file...

Might be a idea to change the audio to "harasser spotted" or "MRAV spotted (for Multirole Armoured Vehicle).

Good post.
As a lightning pilot I found some irregularities they did need to address, and I feel satisfied with the notes here since they were vey minor.
1/2 halberd harassers sniping vehicles, and 1/2 vulcan harrassers that can out-dps a tank.
I also had a problem in general with halberd harassers taking out tanks from a distance threshhold that puts them at impossible to hit.

A damage dropoff satisfies my gripes, and I'm happy the harasser is keeping his backseat repair.