Balance, or not?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by a-koo-chee-moya, Oct 7, 2014.

  1. Alarox

    The PPA is used far more often than the Canister/Marauder. Have you considered why? Relevant image:


    The Canister and Marauder are significantly inferior to the PPA in spite of what the KPH says.

    1.) People using the Canister/Marauder are likely going for Auraxium. Meanwhile, the PPA is used by tons of people for general play.

    2.) The Canister/Marauder are pulled in the specific scenarios where they're useful. Meanwhile, the PPA works in all AI situations.

    3.) People who use the Canister/Marauder are sometimes seat swapping just for the immediate kills. This inflates the stats.
    • Up x 5
  2. Alkezo

    I thought you were better than that Alarox. You should know straight up kills/day is one of the least relevant stats that can be used to determine balance.
  3. Alarox

    Saying that A > B is pointless unless you actually look into what A and B really mean. I just want to point this out.

    It is kind of like looking at the KPH of burst weapons and comparing that the the defaults. If you only do that then it looks like burst weapons are twice as good! Except you're not taking into account the fact that the only people who use burst weapons are going for Auraxium and have plenty of experience, meanwhile the default guns are extremely good but are used by all the new players.

    You have to take into account all of those kinds of things and really consider why a number is what it is, rather than just what it is.
    • Up x 3
  4. lothbrook

    The only thing that really bugs me is HE, the VG is the worst tank to be in when you're near infantry because of how poorly it turns, slow acceleration, and slow reverse, yet its HE is identical to every other tanks HE except it has the longest reload, lol.

    As for the ES AI, everyone knows the PPA is leaps and bounds better than the others, especially when it kills at 300m as fast as the others do at 30m and can actually sustain fire rather than a couple seconds before a reload.
    • Up x 1
  5. Axehilt

    Usually best to paste as plain text.

    Also best to leave out inconsequential stats like KPU or Avg BR, to focus on the stats that matter.
  6. a-koo-chee-moya

    I didn't post KPU...
    As for Average BR. That does affect the performance of a weapon.
    For example

    Weapon A
    Avg BR 75
    KPH 25
    Weapon B
    Avg BR 50
    KPH 20

    These weapons appear to perform significantly differently, but note that lower BRs are using Weapon B, resulting in it not reaching its full potential as a weapon. Therefore, the KPH of B would need to be toned up to account for this.
  7. a-koo-chee-moya

    But, only 11% better than Canister...... so much better.....
  8. a-koo-chee-moya

    1. citation needed

    2. citation needed

    3. citation needed

    You could just say that its the myth of PPA overperformance and Canister and Marauder underperformance (citation needed). This has happened before, as many players like to point to a weapon being "underrated" or "overrated". It could also have to do with PPA being much more obnoxious than the other 2. If the average noob pulled up stats when he/she wanted to choose a weapon, then there would be a lot more stats and a lot less subjective raging on this forum.

    See, without relevant info, I can speculate and come out with whatever subjective but probable conclusions I want.
    • Up x 1
  9. ColonelChingles

    Time is perfectly relevant, because from the amount of time something is used you can determine the role of the weapon. In fact I would say that if there are significant differences in the amount of time that things are used, that might very well be indicative of different roles.

    Specifically that the PPA is great for AI work from close to medium-long range, while the Canister and Marauder are only suited for close range AI duties. These weapons are in fact used quite differently in practice.

    This translates to a time usage difference because of the different amount of time that each weapon is effective. Thus there will be more time when a PPA is effective versus a Canister, and usage time reflects this difference. As tanks prefer to engage infantry at range (to avoid C4 deaths), the amount of time that infantry will be close to a tank should be less than when tanks are engaging infantry from the safety of range.

    Furthermore role is related to time in that weapons that are more likely to be effective at all distances will have people operating those weapons even if there is no current engagement. PPAs are simply popular to gun for... Canisters are pretty dull because the majority of time you'll be doing nothing.

    Take for example a fight at two bases, with a 5 minute commute between bases. The PPA starts at the first fight killing 10, finishes the capture in two minutes, then drives to the next fight and kills another 10 in the next 2 minutes. During this time the PPA gunner has stayed in the slot because the PPA might reasonably be effective for open-field combat (though for this example there were no engagements in that middle area). KPH is 133.3.

    Now take a Canister in the same two fights. At the first fight it kills the same 10 in the same two minutes, and in the second fight it also gets another 10 in two minutes. The difference though is that during the commute in between bases, the Canister is left empty because the role of the Canister does not allow it to be effective in open-field fights. Thus the KPH of the Canister is 285.7.

    We see that due to different usage patterns, the Canister gets an inflated KPH because it is only being used in its very narrow niche. The PPA on the other hand has a deflated KPH because it is manned more often. It has nothing to do with the strengths of each weapon (in the example both weapons were equal), but has everything to do with usage patterns.

    Popularity, which is what you're talking about, is different than the time of usage. But we can calculate time per user of these weapons based on the data.

    Hours of Usage, July 6
    PPA: 278.85
    Canister: 16.01
    Marauder: 15.7

    Unique Users, July 6
    PPA: 1,575
    Canister: 139
    Marauder: 171

    Hours per Unique User, July 6
    PPA: 0.18, 10.8 minutes
    Canister: 0.11, 6.6 minutes
    Marauder: 0.07, 4.2 minutes

    So what we see from this data is that any particular user of a PPA is going to use the PPA for 39% longer than the Canister and 61% longer than the Marauder. That is a significant difference which is explained by the model above.

    Again, pure KPH can't be discussed without examining if the roles of the weapons are the same and if their usage patterns are the same. Doing so would be falling into the same mistake as trying to compare the KPH of a sidearm with the KPH of an assault rifle.

    The usage patterns of Canisters and Marauders are different enough from PPAs that no valid comparison can be made. Maybe PPAs are better, maybe they're worse, but with the data we have there is no way to draw a valid conclusion.
    • Up x 6
  10. andy_m

    I admire peoples ability with mathematics and statistics. Seems a waste of time to me though.

    As for the original question, "balance or not?" I say "not."
  11. Movoza

    There is a lot to react to, but I'll only say two things. Why expect everything to be balanced? There are different factions for a reason. That some weapons underperform, isn't such a bad thing. The factions have other weapons to compensate. If the underperformance get's too much (maybe set that at 10% difference or so), than the weapon needs a little change. Mostly, you should just play on your strengths, and get the other weapons if you want a little more challenge.
    On the PPA note. A PPA is pulled often and seems to me like it is nearly always manned. The Marauder and Cannister are pulled much less, often if people know they are going to perform well with the gun. Although some of my outfit runs it often and gets it manned, I hardly see it anywhere else.
    So the PPA has much more time manned, pulled, and still has a crazy KPH average of 76.80. What other weapon has such an high average? And in your answer, focus on weapons that are pulled regularly and have times like the PPA between bases where it isn't used?
    • Up x 1
  12. andy_m

    Pretty much where I've been coming from for the past 12 months.
    • Up x 1
  13. Bananenweizen

    2 OP: Can you please post the link to your stats the next time some VS starts claiming "Vanguard OP, Magrider totally UP buff please" again?

    Saying that usage time and/or number of users are totally irrelevant is total bullocks, Axehilt. If a weapon is used x time more/by y time more users than some other weapon with both weapons achieving the same level of average performance it is a very strong indication that the first one is a better weapon in the current metagame. The PPA on a Magrider and the Canister on a Vanguard/Marauder on a Prowler are a great example for this effect. The majority of the burst-kind of weapons is another one.

    There can be some exceptions of this rule (there are always some) but in general it is the case.

    And it just don't stop surprise me how you still fail to see it.
  14. SerasVic

    When i go solo Vanguard i take a Canister to defend C4 Faeries like mentionned before.

    So my KPH on Canister is higher because i only go in it when i 'm going to make a kill.
    • Up x 1
  15. Goretzu

    KPH is a bad stat to use, although SPH is even worse.

    Yeah sometimes it can show something, but generally it is skewed by all manner of things (such as ColonelChingles example) leaving it pretty meaningless (without a full context study of how the weapon is used) as a balance factor.
    • Up x 2
  16. Axehilt

    The problems with that are:
    • Players are terrible at choosing the right weapon. So popularity is actually a really terrible indicator of effectiveness, and "current meta" is the result of some pretty awful decision-making.
    • My own KPH with the AI secondaries seems to back up the KPH indicators, where basically the lion's share of KPH difference between them has to do with their effective ranges (the PPA's 10.5% KPH advantage seems related to how many more kill opportunities surface due to the weapon's longer effective range.)
    • Similarly, my own KPH with burst variants seems to indicate they actually are as good as the aggregate KPH stats show. For example my Lynx KPM is 1.05 and my TRAC-5 Burst KPM is 1.17.
    You can all continue denying it, but these aggregate stats are what's actually happening.
  17. Axehilt

    • Me: "Players are bad at choosing weapons due to misconceptions in their effectiveness."
    • You: [describes a common misconception about Marauder effective range.]
    • Me: "Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Thanks."
    The Marauder is fantastic out to medium range (basically just about any range you can see with thermals.)

    So are you implying the PPA is effective in 5x as many situations compared with the Marauder? Because to me that just seems like pure player misconception. I take faction-specific AI secondaries any time I expect to fight a mixed force, and I see all three of them be very effective in their roles.

    It's not like I'm immune to misconceptions. The way the Banshee and Air Hammer worked, I figured the AH had a dramatically lower effective range against infantry, then I saw a Mattiace video and stopped in the middle of a "but it does have lower effective range" post and realized it's actually quite close (though I'm still not sure how much of a mistake it is to engage air with it; it works, barely, but seems to come at a sharp cost in wasted time where I could have a lot more anti-infantry impact.)

    No argument here, except that the difference isn't 5x and you can easily solo-MBT to take advantage of the secondary only in its ideal situations.

    The concept you go on to describe is more stickiness -- once a user uses a weapon, how long are they going to keep using it.

    Admittedly the true indicator of popularity would be measuring how often a weapon is actually taken. We don't have the cleanest stats on that, and while the ones you post come close they would be warped by players like me who take Cannister/Marauder the same ~30% of the time on our 1/2 MBT pulls and only accumulate fractions of time in them while getting reasonably high amounts of kills.
    • Up x 1
  18. a-koo-chee-moya

    That's fine. I was mostly just trying to point out that players need to look at their own faction with the same eyes as other factions.
  19. Yeahy

    If it is used X times more, then that means its more popular. If Osama Bin Laden was voted as the president of the US, does that mean he's a better canidate than say Obama?
    Obviously there is a reason for people using the weapon more. It is alot better for you to analyze and ask WHY or HOW rather than just say "its used more, therefore OP"
  20. z1967

    Some day I feel like I will end up using a great deal of high school math knowledge for game balance discussions. I don't why, but I feel that it is going to happen.