One of the biggest problems with the anti-vehicle engineer turret it is that it is very overpowered when fired from a Point of high visibility. Because it can fly to the extent of the shooters render distance, it means anything the shooter can see can be hit without the need for skills such as Predicting shell drop, leading moving targets, et cetera. All of the balancers for long-range firing are missing. On top of this, the rocket basically has unlimited fuel. These properties make for a horrible combination at places like the crown, where one can stand on the platform edges, and fire down at vehicles very far away. This is resulting in the dreaded mystery damage issue, where vehicles silently lose health and no one can see the incoming fire. The anti-vehicle turret Is one of the longest range Anti-vehicle weapons in the game. On top of this, there is the added issue that these Turrets cost no infantry points. This means that you can create them as often as you like, and even if The enemy destroys it, you can simply deploy another one for no charge. At least the heavy assaults AV weapons have an ammunition limit. To counter these weapons, one needs to fire a bullet precisely through the Hole in the shields to hit the occupant, or strike the turret with a heavy weapon. Even though you don't see a shield with this, it is there. The invisible Shield is currently a bug. At extreme ranges, it is almost impossible to counter it, because the vehicles are all firing shells with drop. Basilisks arent accurate enough and Kobalts barely scratch it. Add to that, that vehicles are rendered at a longer distance than infantry, so vehicles can't see the turret, but the turret can see them. So let me summarize my points with bullets and offer solutions: ----------- Issues: 1a. The missile flies as far as the gunner can see, Giving it extreme range. 1b. The turret can be used at distances where vehicles render but troops dont, creating mystery damage. 2. The turret costs no infantry points, and it is infinitely deployable. A damaged or destroyed turret can be replaced freely. 3. Because it is guided, it can precisely hit distant and moving targets very effectively. 4. The strengths of the turret are multiplied at long ranges from vantage points, making it near impossible to counter. ----------- Suggestions: 1. Let both mana turrets cost infantry resources, like mines, but at an appropriate cost. My reasoning: while the ai turret is marginally effective and we generally are ok with infinite redeploys, the AV turret has a very different dynamic. The AI turret kills troops, so it is troop vs troop with both being free. But vehicles cost resources and have cooldowns. Having an infinitely deployable infinite ammo guided AV turret presents a horrible imbalance. Even destroying the turret is no detriment to the owner. 2. Allow the missile to be guidable and consume fuel to a certain range and then switch to ballisic drop when the fuel runs out. This should take care of the extreme range issue where targets can be hit beyond the render distance of the gunner. This wont fix some issues but will take out the extreme range strikes on moving tanks. Please share your views on this.
1a. The missile flies as far as the gunner can see, Giving it extreme range. Ok, pretty much the same for any lock-on rocket 1b. The turret can be used at distances where vehicles render but troops dont, creating mystery damage. Except turrets render as vehicles, so this is false. 2. The turret costs no infantry points, and it is infinitely deployable. A damaged or destroyed turret can be replaced freely. So? Neither do rocket launchers 3. Because it is guided, it can precisely hit distant and moving targets very effectively. Doesn't have zoom, tracking isn't perfect, takes 24 sec. to kill from the front+travel time. 4. The strengths of the turret are multiplied at long ranges from vantage points, making it near impossible to counter. Except that everything does damage to it, and people using it are screaming "Shoot me please!"
The forums are filled with people who have a beef against the extreme long range lock on of annihilators. I kept that out of this discussion, but it is pertinent I suppose because of the comparisons between anti-vehicle weapons. In general, most people are saying that the annihilators are overpowered. So, comparing the engineer anti-vehicle turret to annihilators is not especially valuable, because so many people believe that annihilators are also overpowered.
I'll give you a problem with the new eng turrets... my lightning just got 2 shot with one.... This to me is unacceptable and caused me to stop playing as a result (a quasi rage quit i suppose).
They are frankly pretty broken, mostly because they behave the same way as any other infantry based rocket, you can get sniped by these from absurd ranges, from places you can't even see, all you see on your end is a huge chunk of damage taken off your vehicle, you are completely disoriented and have no idea what is hitting you, before you know it, you will be dead. And you can't even pop smoke to counter these. In big fights it is yet another huge blow to vehicle balance, now we have to deal with lock-on spam as well as invisible super long range TOW missiles. Just like anni spam, people are abusing the heck out of these by setting them up on The Crown and just victimizing any vehicles they see at TI Alloys or Crossroads/Tank Hill. And you can do absolutely nothing to counter them. They basically gave Engineers the controllability of a lock-on with the power of a dumbfire. They are broken, there is no beating around the bush here. SOE hates combined arms and vehicle gameplay, every patch, every update, every new weapon, they all hurt vehicular combat more and more and make infantry more overpowered. They want infantry to do everything. Engineer is now just as much of a do-it-all Rambo as the HA is.
Av turret needs reduced effectiveness vs. infantry and to be rendered within vehicle render range. Also vehicles need a missile radar or P.D defense option that allows for them to detect incoming rockets and either evade them or shoot them down (as long as the PD had a minimum range.)
It doesn't hit targets beyond render distance.. if you render to him, he does to you as well. All you have to do is look for the giant bloom of light followed by a 100m long smoke trail. Behind it you'll find a very exposed and vulnerable sack of meat and bones standing stationary for you to shoot at.
That is completely wrong. Vehicles render at a longer distance, as long as the Engineer can see you on his turret, he can hit you, but the distance he renders to you is much shorter. This has always been the case with vehicles. And I have seen this in action at The Crown tonight, driving my Lightning the rock in the intersection by Crossroads, I died literally instantly to these AV turrets, 3 of them hit me almost at the same exact time from The Crown. They have the identical problem that lock-ons have. What they should have done instead of giving Engineers this broken turret was give them a toggle switch on the MANA gun turret that would change it to some kind of armor piercing rounds. The last thing this game needed was more mega long range anti-vehicle rocket spam, but SOE did just that. And yet they're being timid with the new render distances even though everyone who got a taste of them loved it and said it didn't impact performance.
I'm afraid this is wrong. As Blarg20011 correctly pointed out, engineer turrets use the vehicle render distance. Plus the engineer continues to render at the same distance as vehicles for a couple of seconds after leaving the turret so if he sees a shell coming his way he can't simply just step off and become immune to the damage. The main problems people have with the annihilator is that it not only allows the HA to be anti everything, it requires no skill to use and can damage vehicles from a range at which the vehicle can not fight back because the HA does not render. An engineer, while versatile is no where near as anti everything as an annihilator equipped HA. It's also worth remembering that the engineer is supposed to be the most versatile class. The AV turret, unlike the annihilator, does require skill to use. Landing a long range shot is actually quite difficult because of depth perception. Not to mention that while you're guiding the rocket you're a sitting duck because you can't hide behind the render distance like the HA can. With that said, as much as I love the AV turret I will concede that the distance is a bit much. A simple fix would be to just make the projectile disappear after a certain distance like some things already do. Though in my opinion the main problem is not with the turret itself but with the projectile render distance. The rocket has a very noticeable smoke trail which is meant to help with locating the engineer but with projectile render distance being what it is the rocket rarely renders, making locating the engineer much harder than it should be.
Well I got the ATV Turret to day, and all I can say is, as soon as you deploy it, every sniper, tank, ESF that can get line of sight to you is on you faster then you can deploy and mount the thing. Other words, I die far more often from using it then I have ever done damage with it. Ya, it does pack a bang, but it's about getting that time to get off a good shot. I think it's venerability makes it a challenge to use, and a form a natural balance. Also the game is pretty fussy about were your permitted to deploy them, I have die allot just running around trying to do just that. Maybe one should try the 30min trial before they chastities.
only if you got shot from behind, it does the same damage as the HA Rocket launcher. Allways make sure you dont take it in the rear
The further away you shoot, the harder it is to get a hit off. Especially if said vehicle doesn't just camp at some hill. So it opens some cool new possibilities. To snipe a tank from really, really far away requires much skill or extreme luck and that's where the fun in it is . You will miss, you will get sniped off (especially with its render distance), you will cry while trying to deploy. But when you already score this long distance hit on that smoking Magrider rear, it feels so rewarding. That's what the mechanic should be.
For an weapon that has unlimited ammo, can be replaced over and over when it dies, and can be guided for incredible precision at long range, it does far, far too much damage. But even then, damage shouldn't be the deciding factor since when you add more people using it, it becomes somewhat of a non-factor. If it were to be guided up to a point before it lost the ability to be guided and then became a ballistic missile (with or without drop) that would be somewhat more balanced. Or it has a slight spiral to it, which doesn't affect it much at close to close-medium range, but it becomes a game of almost luck or exceptional skill to know where it'll actually land at long range, somewhat like leading and compensating for drop like the HA dumb-fire launchers. I don't mind it being ok at killing vehicles in itself, but for a weapon with unlimited ammo and infinite re-delployability (and lets not forget, when you die on it, a medic can still revive you), that does similar damage to the default dumb-fire rocket launcher that has drop and limited ammo capabilities unless near an engineer the whole time, something seems off. I suspect it will get some sort of tweak, most things that get released are a little unbalanced (not calling it OP) and that is the nature of games. I just hope it's the right kind of tweak.
Here video for people who think that turrets have same as infantry rendering distance. You may skip to 1:15 if you don't want to wait. You may consider the turret as OP because it can hit enemies at extreme range (mention the pin-point kill at 550-560m) but they more like death trap if enemies at close-middle range. You shoot and they see you. On Esamir I even don't try to use it since it's visible at any distance. Probably vehicle fans already hate all AV weapons and their users but we don't have and didn't had fair play anyway. They pull armored units to small bases and ruin our fights and we do same. That sad but IDK what should be done.
For me, ive Observed the mystery damage issue due to rendering distances in several cases. Even if the vehicle render distance applies to these turrets, I still think that my suggestions are fair and balanced. I'm not suggesting a nerf so much as just making them cost materials like other deployable anti vehicle weapons. That, and taking away their guidance at extreme range is a fairly practical balancing approach In my opinion.
Mana turrets render at infantry range. Spotting a turret, however, yells out "Enemy Engineer spotted."
