AV Max Weapons are TERRIBLE

Discussion in 'MAX' started by RogueComet, Nov 24, 2012.

  1. RogueComet

    I was curious so I tested out Dual Comet weapons on my VS Max against the front armor of a Sunderer. Then I compared it to the damage done by a HA AV Lock-on Rocket. Here's my results:

    VS Comet Max - 13 shots to kill a Sunderer on front armor
    Max effective range - approx 120m, past that is VERY hard to hit with
    Moving targets? I don't think so!
    Clip/Drum Size: 1:42
    Infantry Damage: well dual center body shots didn't kill a HA today for me
    Maximum Resurrect Health: 20%

    HA Lock-on Rocket - 5 shots to kill a Sunderer on front armor
    Max effective range - a whole heck of a lot farther than 120m, always easy to hit with lock-on
    Moving targets? Not a problem with lock!
    Clip/Drum Size: 1:4
    Infantry Damage: dual center body shots WILL kill a HA
    Maximum Resurrect Health: 100%

    Conclusion... Using a COMET max is pointless for taking on vehicles. You are MUCH better off using Heavy Assault's with the lock-on rockets.

    All of that got me thinking... how often have I been in a tank and actually been killed by the enemy's Anti-VEHICLE weapons? I honestly can't remember a single time from the beginning of beta until today that a Max has killed my tank. Heavy assaults with their rockets? Sure! Maxes with AV? Nope. What does this say about the state of AV weapons on Maxes? I really want this statement to be for ALL EMPIRES that the AV maxes need some serious love because of their current state being so incredibly poor.

    The only thing a Max has going for it is that it might take 2 rounds from an MBT to kill it instead of the 1 that HA will take. Doesn't matter though, you'll have to shoot over twice as many shots to kill the MBT at a much closer range than the HA so who cares if it can take a bit more fire from an enemy tank.

    Until they fix the AV weapons, don't bother. I'd love to recommend you spend money on them, but... BLEH!
    • Up x 3
  2. OldMaster80

    I didn't test the TR damage so well as you did, but what I find terrible is that the Pounder ammo capacity is two shots before to reload. That's what makes it completely useless: having to reload every two shot is total $hit, because you need to have double Pounder and alternate left and right, in order to keep shooting. And you still can hardly destroy a Lightning.
  3. RogueComet

    ROFL, I'd take two over the single shot that the Comet gets. I totally agree for you though. AV weapons for Maxes are exactly what you said they are. I'm very tempted to make a character for each faction to test this out using the test weapons in the store (then again, all I'd have to test is the lock-on rocket damage right because you start off with 1 AV arm for your Max? that's but a single "test." Tempting...)
  4. VKhaun

    Just to be clear, are you saying a MAX should be able to solo a main battle tank or sunderer?

    In my mind the AV max weapon is about fighting other MAX units, and contributing DPS to other people's rockets and general AV fire when a group of infantry shoots at an enemy vehicle.

    The second AI and AA weapons were the first thing I got on my MAX's and I never use the AV weapons so I won't pretend to know more than anyone else about their effectiveness, I'm just commenting on your expectations of their intended effectiveness.
  5. RogueComet

    I was curious... put blockade armor on my Sunderer, then shot the rear armor with the Comet Max weapons at pretty much point-blank range. It took SEVENTEEN (ya 17) shots to blow the Sunderer up. How can SOE not see a problem with this?
  6. RogueComet

    You obviously have failed to to see the problem that MAX AV weapons do not actually contribute to shooting at a vehicle in any meaningful and useful way. Seriously think about what you are saying... You really think that a max should do only 42% of the damage that a LOCK ON rocket should do? ROFL! From your argument you sound like you don't think a HA should be able to solo a tank either, but they do. Ah heck, why not make it so even a tank can't solo another tank? That's effectively what a MAX is because of the timer PLUS resource cost. There is no way that their current incarnation is balanced compared to the HA class. You are much better off pulling HA than an AV MAX.

    I've also shot the AV weapons at other Max suits. Due to their super small clip size and super slow reload speed, I am actually more effective against another Max using AI weapons!

    Dual C4, HA Rockets, Rocket Pods for ESF, other MBTs, EVERYTHING out classes the AV Max. My expectations are that they are BALANCED. In no way or form is their current damage rate balanced when compared to other classes or other things that kill vehicles.
  7. VKhaun

    So make a statement. How many shots should it take for a MAX to blow up a sunderer? If not shots, what about time. How much time should it take a MAX to blow one up if he goes dual AV weapons?
  8. psychobilly

    I miss the 4 shot comet from beta. I haven't played MAX since they removed it... too crappy.
  9. Terrahero

    I feel the same way. Spend resources to get my max suit, which has a cooldown. I went fully for AV, dual Pounder, so i accept that i am useless against air and at a severe disadvantage against infantry. And found that my AV capacities were worst then when i play my HA.
    Im a fairly new player so maybe thats it, but i find it very hard to reliably hit anything over a distance. Especially if it moves, i dont have a prayer. And when i hit them the damage is just so low. Against infantry aswell, i understand its not suppose to be the weapon of choice against infantry but when im shelling a spot with explosives rounds you'd expect them to atleast notice.

    I have just one advantage over my HA. My HA, when unsupported, runs out of rockets mighty fast and simply doesnt carry enough ammo on his own to take out more then 1 vehicle that isnt already damaged. Cant take out a Sunderer without reloading (again, im a new player. I dont have fancy C4 or such).
    My MAX carries enough ammo to kill several enemy armors, in theory.

    I'd like to see damage just flat out upped against vehicles, a bit more damage against infantry and a larger splash area to make it easier to land a hit and scare infantry out of a spot.
  10. Pyros

    I found the Pounder to be alright. It does good infantry dmg IF you direct hit, the splash is terrible but if it was good it'd be better than the anti infantry weapons so that makes sense. Takes like 8grenades on back armor to kill a Prowler, so it's not that much. Frontal armor is always going to be crappier.

    Few things though, in the initial analysis, am I right to assume that's 13 single hits in frontal armor? You didn't factor the fact you have 2 weapons so it's really 6.5hits? Cause that makes it pretty close to HA.

    It's definitely not super awesome, but I found it to be pretty decent. I mostly use my MAX for AA though but if there's tanks around I grab the Pounders and throw a few salvos at it. Takes a couple of shots to adjust to find the right angle but once you have it it actually shoots the 4 grenades pretty quickly and they do good dmg. Believe when I tested on back armor on a prowler it took only 8shots to destroy it, which means 2clips and that's like ~4-5secs. Shouldn't really fight tanks from the front anyway.

    The main issue is just the overlap between HA and MAX for all roles and the fact currently HA performs as well or better in some cases than MAXes.
  11. Naithe

    A max shouldn't be able to solo an MBT unless it takes it from the rear, it should be stronger vs and MBT then a HA.

    Honestly I'd like to see a dmage nerf to lock on launchers when hitting anything BUT the ****. and a buff to maxes. More then Damage they need a buff to make it easier to hit, give them A FLAT and fast projectile like a AV cannon for the tanks. =P
  12. Deschain

    Funny, i tried this also myself put 7 rounds into a sunderer rear door with comet max, i think i barely did 5% dmg to it. Only really playable max varient is burster and even that is comedy show when you add up how much ammo you go through per hour just to get maybe 1 personal kill, 99.9% of my xp comes from assisted kills.
  13. Ganjis

    When the comet was 4-shot, a dual-equipped one would outperform a HA if you had support and played smart. The other AV MAX weapons were lousy at the time.

    Then they nerfed them all.
  14. desktop

    I use twin pounders and they can chew lightnings. They easily beat other maxs and its an important role to fill since anti infantry maxs can slaughter troops at close ranges.
  15. ghnurbles

    I've had a few situations where pulling dual AV was appropriate today (multiple/constant enemy armor), and I did so. I have absolutely no complaints about the Comet's performance.
  16. Frotang

    Been having great fun with dual falcon, gotten several armor kills but admittedly im moatly getting assists which is fine. Treat it like a burster and just continually lob shots to keep armor away. Also ive found that alternating shots btwn arms is the most accurate and is more effective a maintaing constant av fire downrange. I guess the falcon is the hardest hitting bc i can one shot infantry with a direct headshot.
    • Up x 1
  17. heatproofsean

    I think you missed an important stat. Time To Kill (TTK). Locking on 5 missiles and reloading them with a HA takes along time. And requires an engineer's ammo drop or extra ammo suit cert.

    A max has a large stock of ammo and 13 shots, is that each gun or any? Because when you have 2 guns, 13 shots is more like 7 in time spent. That's 2 more than the HA.

    But I do agree projectile speed needs improving and the mag size. I think they are more of Anti-Max than Anti-Vehicle. When they had 4 rounds per mag, they out preformed AI. BUT there is a single reason for that:

    AI Max Weapons are so inaccurate, there effective range is that of a shotgun. So AV (especially VS with low projection drop) were better because they allowed the Max to engage at medium range (very vulnerable to HA playing peek-a-boo with a rocket launcher) . And they can kill 2-3 tightly groups inf at close range, or wound by utilizing the splash damage on walls and floors etc.

    Reduce AV weapon's damage to Inf slightly so they need a few direct hits to kill. Increase the mag size. Make AI usable at Medium range so they feel like AI weapons. Fighting at that range and missing 9 out 10 shots is not enjoyable. It actually sucks. Keep them devastating at close range but useful/competitive vs small arms at medium. Probably over-all damage reduction and vastly increased accuracy with dmg reduction over distance/bullet drop.

    That way Maxs can fight armour (with support/using the terrain advantage) via AV weapony, and fight inf via AI and not get gimped before even getting in range to fire. Then AI weapons be clearly better than the AV at the same job.
    Making the AV useless vs inf is bad as well because the HA rockets are effective as well. Both situational (groups, round corners etc).
  18. RogueComet

    TTK is actually about twice HA because they take longer to reload. So TTK is LONGER, range is SHORTER, and they are overall worse and not worth it. Sorry but they are also NOT anti-max. Last night I got OWNED bigtime by another player when I was in Dual Comet and they were Dual AI. Their health was 50% when I died and every single one of my shots hit.

    DO NOT REDUCE THE AV DAMAGE WHICH IS ALREADY TERRIBLE. You must be something special to think that the damage needs to be reduced. *rolls eyes* Don't even reduce it against infantry. I can easily kill a group of people faster with AI than AV. No need to make that change at all.

    These things also have almost no splash damage. You guys really don't seem to get the point that Comet Max (since that is all I've tested) is seriously flawed and worthless when compared to HA.
    • Up x 3
  19. MortarionX

    Lol count yourselfs lucky that you didn't use the MAX AV weapons early and mid beta. Man were they terrible. The TR Pounder had 8 rounds in a mag, barely did any damage and to top it off couldn't shoot past 50 yards. The NC Falcon held 3 rounds, barely did any more damage than the pounder and was slow as hell. The Comet was a better AI than AV.

    In comparison the new AV weapons are AMAZING. That being said, they still SUCK MAJOR BALLS. I mean if I'm gonna be running dedicated AV I would at least like to be able to do as much damage as a HA can.
    • Up x 1
  20. Metalsheep

    Agreed, The MAX AV weapons DO suck horribly. But, i think rather than increasing the damage they deal, they should increase the number of rounds per clip by default. I dont play VS or NC, but if it takes 13-14 rounds to kill a tank, instead of 2 rounds per clip for the pounder. They should increase it to 4. So now you have 8 rounds going out per volly, assuming you are going as a straight AV MAX. So its only one (two gun) reload then5 more rounds to kill. This leaves a possible 3-4 shot miss margin for error. It gives you a faster TTK on tanks than a HA, but the fact that you still have to reload allows the Tank driver a chance to escape or take evasive action.

    Thats just my two cents. I stopped playing as a MAX, even less so as an AV. But just increasing clip size, rather than raw damage seems a more elegant solution. It gives Dual AV MAX suits lethality, and gives single AV MAX pilots a way to lend some firepower on a tank, or fight off other MAX suits/engi turrets.

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