Auto Scout Rifles, underpowered for 2+ years, NO MORE!

I guess you're in the habit of ignoring statistics and fact. Ok.

I recently auraxiumed the SOAS-20 (I unlocked it long ago when it was cheaper in certs, got a few hundred kills and now picked it up again) and even though it felt underwhelming at start I kinda grew into it. I agree in that it could use a little something, but I feel it has it's uses as it is. It's really not that bad. The 2-3 first shots of the volley are deadly accurate and you can use bursting to get relatively consistent head shots and kill your enemy usually in a few short bursts. I was also surprised how far you could kill slowly moving or stationary targets with it. You really can't go full auto with it unless you're at closer ranges, but when the situation rises it's a nice option to have too.

I found it most useful at dropping running infantry at medium-long ranges, especially when they were moving perpendicularly to my facing, when hitting with semi-auto scout riles can prove sometimes challenging and the range is a little too much for NS-7. While it's niche might be pretty narrow, I think it's a good all-around weapon for infiltrator that can be used in variety of situations. Don't know what you will face? Pack an ASR.

I don't think ASRs should nowhere near to AR/Carbines in performance, but I do agree on a few things;
-ASRs (and many other weapons) should have HVA option
-What Iridar suggested, make them more like ARs with higher muzzle velocity and lower horizontal recoil
-Suppressors could be a little less penalizing outside pistols/SMGs
-In addition, ASRs should have some faction traits, if just along the line of regular scout rifles.

Infiltrator has a lot of underused guns. Heck, all Units in the game have this problem. Some are underpowered (frequently due to Power Creep that the gun is not designed to deal with), some lack a role, some have a role that is too narrow or that is no longer in the game... or some combination of those things.

The bigger problem for Infiltrator is not that their guns are underused or underpowered or obsolete, it's that since launch the Dev team has had no Infil players or people who understood how to play an Infil, what roles Infil guns were needed for, and how each gun performed in those Infil roles. I think the most glaring example and slap in the face example of this Dev disconnect is that the Directive Reward for "Scout Rifles"... is a Battle Rifle.

Just looking at Infiltrator BR100 usage we can see a long list of guns that aren't used much. Below I have listed the guns that fall in the Semi-Auto/Auto role. Auto Scout Rifle still sees more use than some Infil guns, but it still has low use:


Monthly Average Uniques
===================

Auto Scout Rifle
---------------------------------------------------------
Artemis VX26............83
AF-18 Stalker............62
SOAS-20..................57

Semi-Auto Scout Rifle
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VS NS-30 Vandal........65
TR NS-30 Vandal.........53
NC NS-30 Vandal........50
Nyx VX31...................34
HSR-1........................30
AF-6 Shadow..............25

Semi-Auto Sniper (short range scopes)
---------------------------------------------------------
Phantom VA23..........31
KSR-35....................29
Impetus....................31

mislabeled guns (Semi-Auto Scout Rifle labeled as a Sniper Rifle)
---------------------------------------------------------
TRAP-M1..................31

Semi-Auto Sniper (long range scopes)
---------------------------------------------------------
VA39 Spectre............20
99SV........................19
Gauss SPR...............13

The issues for the Auto Scout Rifles are:
1) too many opponents use Heavy Assault, and the the ASR is not designed to deal with a target that can soak up that much damage (ASR Mag Size runs out of bullets) and extend Time-To-Kill that much (ASR's already slow TTK is especially affected by extended TTK from Power Creep, just like all slow TTK guns are especially affected by this: Shield/ADAD/Medkit "TTK Extenders" are a multiplier effect, so a slower TTK base means a *much* bigger multiplier impact from the TTK Extenders)
2) too many battles are either CQC Infantry or lots of Vehicles. ASR is bad at CQC because it has terrible hipfire accuracy outside of point blank and Mag size (and slow TTK), and it has no role in a Vehicle fight.

What most underused Weapons (and Classes) in Infantry need is a nerf to Heavy Assault Shields and a nerf to MedKit... but that ain't gonna happen. So, you have to buff ASR to be effective vs. the HA bullet sponge meta. And that means:
1) bigger Mag, probably up to 28-30.
2) faster TTK. Nothing major, just enough to kill a stationary HA (with a crouched, ADS attack from between 20-30m) fast enough so that the HA can't easily just activate Shield (then ADAD, then Medkit, etc.) and nullify the attack.
3) decently accurate Hipfire at more than just point blank range, probably out to 12-15m (NOTE: this is not for the weapon to be a hipfire killing machine, but for it to be usable as a last resort if an opponent stumbles into you at CQC range). This will help the ASR remain viable even in the current Infantry game which frequently forces players into more CQC engagements.
4) TR and NC ASRs to be quiter when firing with Suppressor

Doing this will up the Power Level the ASR without actually changing the feel/usage of the ASR. The ASR has needed these same changes for a long time.

It may seem like my suggested buffs are pushing the ASR to seemingly overlap the PDW more. But I assure you this is not the case. PDW has always been a hybrid gun between other SMGs and the ASRs. The PDW has greater range, more speed, and accuracy while moving on hipfire than ASR, but less kill power on stationary targets at farther ranges using ADS than ASRs. And the PDW has more kill power on stationary targets at farther ranges using ADS than other SMGs (except maybe Cyclone), but less TTK on hipfire than other SMGs. With my suggested changes, PDW remains good hipfire accuracy and speed while moving and at longer ranges, and good ADS longer range while stationary. While ASR goes more for being cleary better at killing ADS at farther range while stationary and not being terrible at hipfire accuracy in CQC (yet still lacking the PDW hipfire movemvent speed on hipfire).

Please stop bumping this thread. 'The Funk' already killed it 18 months ago:

It's also untrue to say that ASRs are clearly worse than SMGs. They're essentially comparable to the NS-7:

- DPS is virtually the same.
- Damage per mag is virtually the same.
- Horizontal tolerance and FSRM are identical.

When we look at the differences we see ASRs dominate at longer ranges:

- Lower RoF, lower horizontal recoil and balanced recoil angle mean they are more controllable.
- Less damage drop off (e.g. at 65m 1,358 DPS versus 1,250 for the NS-7).
- Much higher muzzle velocity.

The NS-7 has similar advantages at closer ranges (better hipfire, higher RoF, SPA) so overall they are pretty much perfectly balanced. Both are far more powerful than, say, the HSR-1 or TRAP-M1.

I have over 8400 kills with my soas atm.

I'd like to have 6 more bullets.

Thats the only change, and maybe a slight increase in velocity with a suppressor.

For the longest time i ran it with no suppressor which lends itself to a hit and run tactic whereby you quickly kill one target then stealth and run to another spot and wait for them to converge on the previous spot, kill another rinse repeat. Without a suppressor the gun is deadly at medium range and even longer ranges.

They made more sense back when Infiltrators couldn't use SMGs

But since the scout rifles lose to SMGs in basically every category, I don't know why you'd run a scout over an SMG? Does this mean Scouts need to be buffed?

Honestly it would be better to just remove them

I prefer to look at the ASR in terms of whether it can perform well enough or not: is it worth using as an Infil, when, and how well does it do when used. Rather than trying to turn it into some other weapon, especially some other weapon on a different class.

I have ~2000 kills with Artemis, ~400 with SOAS, and ~250 with Stalker. I like the ASR design and I like its role. But I rarely use it anymore because:
1) most gameplay I experience has moved away from non-CQC Infantry combat, inlcuding the close-mid range role I like ASR for
2) HA is very popular and HA tricks to extend TTK are very bad for ASR's small Mag
3) I run Stalker Cloak + Emissary now for long distance stealth travel, and that was one role I used to use ASR in before Stalker

ASR is still useable, often good enough, and can still be played in many of the current meta engagements. I just don't find it as good a fit as it was in the older metas, and I very rarely use it now. I don't currently use PDW either.

I've already covered my thoughts on the PDW vs. ASR. They are very similar (more if you choose the PDW attachments to be like the ASR), with ASR having the edge on longer range ADS (for me while stationary and crouched), while PDW is better at hipfire and ADS movement. And with the PDW notably having access to Extended Mag and a much better Laser Sight.

And like I said, I don't use PDW either. It's too bad we can't see usage numbers for cross-Class Weapons by specific Classes.

I have no interest in changing the ASR into a totally different weapon. That is typically what DBG does when it rebalances stuff: yuck. ASR is a very cool weapon with a fun role, I just feel it and *many* other weapons are not tuned really well to deal with the current (power creep) meta.

Trap is not a bad weapon. I don't like the manual spam-click firing, but it's decent for mixed range combat. I very rarely use it. But I use it more than ASR, SAScoutR, SASniperR, or PDW. (though I would definitely try using the Spectre more now that it has Ballistics Computer if I played VS more)

Agreed.

For me, I'd like 4-6 more bullets. Just to better deal with the longer TTK on Infantry in the current meta. And it's not like giving the ASR a 30 Mag is going to make it a reliable "2 kills before reload" weapon.

I also think the SOAS and Stalker are too loud with Suppressor. While Artemis is *super* quiet (plus has no bullet drop, which can reduce leg hits and also can be used to poke-disrupt better at long ranges).

If you run an ASR, especially without a suppressor and then switch to smg you will quickly realize they are not the same at all. ASR has much better range.

I tried it just the other day for some CqC and i quickly switched back. I prefer not to get up close and personal since i have less hit points. SMGs are great, no doubt, but certainly not as good at range. Especially burst firing you can take down distant targets pretty quickly with an ASR.

Exactly, the mid-range power on ASRs is fantastic. SMGs do not even come close.

If you give ASRs six more rounds in the mag as others are suggesting it will match mid-range ARs like the CME, in which case there's no logical reason why SMGs should not also be buffed to the level of CQC ARs or carbines. I would love my armistice to be as powerful as a cycler trv or lynx but there's a good reason why it isn't like that.

Infils have cloaks and permascans. They do not need AR-level weapons as well.

There's no range at which the trap is preferable to the soas. If the trap's not a bad weapon then the soas must be a great weapon.

I have to agree. I currently run with Artemis (supressed) an find it to be a great weapon. Sure, I could use some more bullets in mag but only because I tend to forget to reload after some quick engagement. BTW reload speed is very fast on this weapon. Anyway, I ralely use it for longer range combat tho I had some mid/long range kills with it. I find it to be way more effective than SMG for infiltrator but maybe it is just me. If I wante big damage and lots of bullets I could play other classes for it.

I prefer the Trap to ASR at closer ranges, and farther ranges. Staying mobile and ambushing opponents, especially with terrain/structure filed-of-view and elevation differences. More mixed range combat. And vs. moving targets because my aim is poor.

For me, ASR is about setting up kill shots on medium distance stationary targets. That's where I am most lethal with it, and outside of HA I do very well with it in that role. When I use it outside that role, I fail more and I die more. I am sure others can use ASR in much more versatile roles (I know I've been killed by enemy's ASR while moving and also in non-point-blank CQC), it's just not in my skillset.

I don't mean Trap is a great weapon. I just mean that I actually choose to use it once in a while. In narrow situations. Which is more than I use many of the Infil guns.

I used the MKV Suppressed (with 1x Scope, Extended Mag, and SPA) tonight at a TI Alloys fight. I enjoyed it and will totally try it out more, including in such chaotic random mixed range fighting.

I don't really understand how you could have trouble hitting moving targets with the ASR. It's full auto, low recoil, solid RoF, good muzzle velocity. It requires no adjustment at all from using carbines or ARs, in fact it's a little easier than most of them because it's so controllable. SMGs are actually slightly more difficult as you have to lead more due to lower muzzle velocity, though it's easy enough after a few minutes of adjustment. Maybe you're just more used to semi-autos or something? I too have poor aim so that's not an excuse

The ASR functions pretty much the same as an SMG, just with a bit more range. While it excels at ADS you can even step out in front of enemies and reliably get the kill with hipfire. CQC is a bad idea with the TRAP - the theoretical RoF and DPS are far lower, and given it uses burst fire rather than full auto your actual RoF and DPS are likely to be lower still. As with many things with the TRAP, it can be done, but only with much greater difficulty than with full auto weapons. I ARXed the SMGs and ASR easily but couldn't face using the TRAP any more after 500-odd kills. It just gets you killed when you shouldn't be.

EDIT: proof of my ARXes and poor aim
http://ps4eu.ps2.fisu.pw/player/?name=ryme&show=weapons

Maybe only reduce their recoil to almost zero? That would justify name "scout rifle" as at least they would be different. And it would be a big boost.