[Suggestion] ASP Perk: LMG Access for Infiltrators

Discussion in 'Infiltrator' started by WindMaze, Jul 1, 2018.

  1. That_One_Kane_Guy

    I appreciate that. You'd be surprised how uncommon this mindset is. People can become incredibly hostile when their pet ideas are questioned too strongly.

    Not if the only ones around to hear it are in the respawn screen. Five was only an example, I'm merely assuming a small group larger than you would otherwise comfortably be able to kill with a Scout or SMG mag but large enough to kill with an LMG. Simply put if I can kill everyone in a position to do anything about me before they have time to react, the noise I make in doing so is inconsequential.

    The SAW is merely the easiest target, most other LMGs will kill faster. However, the high damage model means the first shot advantage an attacker has is substantial, ideal for infiltrators. Also you should never, ever, ever hip fire the SAW unless you...actually I can't think of a good reason to ever hipfire the SAW. Just don't. Think of the children.

    I think the issue here is that we are assuming different kinds of engagement here. I am assuming that the infiltrator is flanking a position with maybe 4-5 guys shooting out of windows, healing, repairing, etc. Essentially otherwise engaged and looking the other way, with no idea I am there until I am already shooting. Engagement distance is ~20-30m or closer if I can get it and is over as quickly as I can drop all the targets, ideally before they have a chance to realize that the gunfire coming from behind them is not friendly. They won't see my muzzle flash or tracers due to my positional advantage.

    On the other hand it seems as though you are assuming a more or less straight-up fight where the enemies know I am out there and have a relative idea of where I am. I am not suggesting any class should be able to fight 4-5 players in a straight-up firefight and win as long as the players in question have remembered to turn on their monitors.

    I'm not talking about in the long run, I'm talking about in individual firefights. An LMG in the hands of an infiltrator means they are capable of shooting, cloaking, relocating, and reengaging rapidly and unpredictably as long as they still have bullets in the magazine. Long-term sustainability is a separate matter and not an issue.

    You only need the cloak as long as it takes you to get behind hard cover. A rock or building makes you more invisible than any cloak.

    To put it into one sentence: other classes can't become invisible.
    If there's one thing I have taken away from the FPS community, it's that much stock is put into "skill" as long as that "skill" is two players facing each other at 20 paces with no outside interference. Anything that kills from long range (snipers, tanks, aircraft), in one shot (shotguns, snipers, C4, tanks), can't be killed with an assault rifle (tanks, aircraft, MAXs (practically)), or modifies the engagement in any way (Jetpacks, Carapace, Cloak, Overshield) is "cheap" and therefore whined about loudly until the Devs cave (worst case), the whiners abandon the game (not ideal) or the whiners learn how counterplay works and stop whining (rare, but best case). You can see this trend in almost any FPS community.

    To be honest if it ends up passing the PTS inspection Vets will probably be OK with it. Whether or not that would happen is anyone's guess, but if carbines got a try I guess there's no reason for LMGs not to. The main issue lies with the huge force multiplier represented by an infiltrator with any given weapon which means despite what the numbers say it may end up being overpowered in a realistic combat scenario. (e.g. in the hands of their average users an Auto-Scout is comparable or even superior to a Carbine across all distances, but when tested in the PTS they were found to be overpowered.)

    It's not as much as you might think. Even with bodyshots from one of the slowest TTK LMGs in the game, you have less than a second to react before you're looking at a spawn screen. An opponent needs to be only a little better than you are to kill you in a fair fight. In an ambush they may only need to be 75% as good, for example. Depending on where you sit on the skill curve this may cover a broader or narrower percentage of the players you encounter.

    I find that if I assume that my opponents are all at least as competent as me and that my teammates are the dumb ones, then play the game accordingly, I am rarely disappointed.
  2. Lee Weldon

    The thing kinda is though, there is already the AF-18 Stalker for NC, its probably as close to an LMG as you'll ever need and you'll ever get. It's about 10% weaker than most LMG's for a reason, I think the surprise factor in a 30-40m engage is far more valuable then heavy overshields. It's limiting damage and cloak do absolutely nothing for you in CQC so it is balanced but if you could take a more versatile LMG that was good among more ranges, like the anchor for instance, there would be no reason to use SMG's and you sure as hell wouldn't take the AF-18 Stalker.
    • Up x 1
  3. WindMaze

    There's also the SOAS-20 for the TR and the Artemis VX26 for the VS, which are similar to the Stalker. I'm talking about a suggestion that could potentially make a significant impact on all 3 factions, not just the NC.

    Generally speaking, full auto scout rifles have unimpressive stats and function like weak assault rifles with no faction specific flavors. If they were to get buffed or even revamped (as I made a suggestion about this some time ago), then they wouldn't be shoved off to the side and forgotten by more desirable weapons.

    IMO, full auto scout rifles should be buffed so that they can compete with LMGs and other full auto weapons at medium range only. Sure, full auto scout rifles lose killing potential in CQC, but they compensate for that with range and accuracy. They should also get access to HVA to further emphasize the role of attacking at medium range instead of close quarters.

    Meanwhile, SMGs are the go-to weapons for CQC Infiltrators, full auto scout rifles are about guerilla warfare, and LMGs are meant for suppressing fire. Every weapon has strengths and weaknesses, and PlanetSide doesn't favor versatility...it's either one or the other.
  4. WindMaze

    I agree. The first time you engage these five guys, you will catch them off guard and kill them all because they had no idea you were there. However, once they do respawn, they will come back for another round to engage your Infiltrator — they might even bring Darklight flashlights too. If you're not prepared to fight a second wave of enemies, then your Infiltrator is at risk of dying. The second time you engage these guys, odds are you're going to fight them face-to-face and they will be aware of your Infiltrator in the area.

    More details are below, but yes, the Infiltrator will eventually (and inevitably) end up fighting enemies head-on. The more you make your presence known, the more direct your attacks will have to be to beat your enemies (in this case, it's five enemies).

    This could possibly make a Gauss SAW Infiltrator OP...provided that the NC Infiltrator has excellent aim and a good position to engage enemies from a safe distance. I was thinking instead of giving full LMG access, why not give limited LMG access instead? For the sake of balance, a compromise for ASP Infiltrators to have LMGs would be having the option choose only 2 or 3 LMGs instead of having complete access to all of them.

    Also, I know how bad the Gauss SAW's hip fire accuracy is. Even with a laser sight and no barrel attachment whatsoever, it's still horrible. As irrelevant as this is, we'll make a meme out of this for some other time.

    I've mentioned this in the first quote: once the Infiltrator blows his/her cover, enemies will be aware of him/her and they will start looking for him/her. Infiltrators will slowly run out of stealthy options if they keep killing the same individual(s) over and over, and they will inevitably be forced to fight enemies head-on if they want to survive.

    Catching enemies off guard the first time will work if you can pull it off, but when you're trying to get the element of surprise on your enemies again (a second time, third, fourth, etc.), they won't stop until you end up staring at a death screen because they're paying more and more attention.

    This is exactly what I was thinking: what if an LMG Infiltrator went up against 4-5 enemies head-on? Who will be victorious and who will stare at a death screen? There are a lot of factors that can determine the outcome if this fight, but it mostly depends on who can outsmart and/or overpower the other.

    So you're talking about 1v1 fights and the short run here, not the long run. An LMG Infiltrator will have the firepower and the mobility to engage individual targets back-to-back before even needing to reload, which is what the biggest concern is — how powerful an LMG Infiltrator's short term sustainability is.

    How powerful an LMG Infiltrator will be on the short term heavily depends on how skilled the player (Infiltrator) is in combat. Obviously, given that this is an ASP skill, the player (Infiltrator) should know what they're doing when it comes to engagements, positioning, and situational awareness. Combine this with my new idea of having limited LMG access (and not full LMG access) and maybe this won't be as OP as some people claim it to be.

    Agreed. This is also off topic, but the definition of "skill" varies from player to player. If you haven't, I would highly recommend reading "Playing to Win" by David Sirlin; it's a great read. You can download the book for free on a PDF file and there's not much else to say other than the fact that you're correct and this is something I've noticed in my experience throughout the FPS community.

    We won't know until we try this out...if DayBreak has this set up for us on a PTS.

    It's difficult to determine where exactly I sit on the skill curve, but I am definitely above average. I would have to assume I'm encountering a smaller number of skilled opponents (that are either a little bit or a lot better than me) due to how good I am as an Infiltrator main.

    Based on my experience with having random/dumb teammates, I have to play the game as a lone wolf and use them as decoys or human shields instead of actual comrades that could save my life from time to time during the heat of battle. The random/dumb teammates are just as useless as the red lights on GTA 5, and my opponents are somewhat competent when I encounter them, so there's that.

    All in all, we're on the same page here.
  5. Corezer

    *remembers all the infiltrator *****ing about heavies with minor cloak implant*
    *sees infiltrator try to justify LMG on cloaking class*
    • Up x 2
  6. That_One_Kane_Guy

    The only legitimate complaints I ever saw from Infil players regarding MC was the understandable concern regarding class diversity. After getting released with that ~1 second delay though, I've yet to see anyone call it overpowered.
  7. WindMaze

    An LMG Infiltrator is still more useful than a Heavy sitting still with Minor Cloak.
  8. WindMaze

    Both SMGs and full auto scout rifles might need entire overhauls just to compete with LMGs, kind of like what DayBreak did with pistols. Infiltrators clearly lack full auto weapons, so it would be nice to either get access to a weapon class or buff the current weapons we have access to.
  9. SupaFlea

    Infil has never needed more ways to kill the only thing Infil has always lacked is a useful/tactical purpose. In PS1 Cloakers would sacrifice equipment and weapons for the ability to have unlimited cloak but usually advanced hacking which was faster and could let you hack enemy vehicles. Hacking was required to even get in to enemy bases cause the doors were locked and it took i think 60s to hack the control terminal to start a base hack before you upgraded you Adv Hacking.

    Early in Beta of PS2 Infils had access to shotguns and it was a nightmare. I primary LA but secondary Designated Marksman(upfront squad sniper).
    • Up x 1
  10. FIN Faravid

    I am always in favor of more player choices. Yes please. Though i don't see myself using that as infriltrator, i rarely even play infri.

    In fact i would love to give every class every weapon and tool choose from - though light assaults should not be given cloaks and sniper rifles, it would be a nightmare. Some limitations are necessary to create fun and enjoyable gameplay.
    But i don't like classes in general. Engineers should not use carbines because they have to, they should use carbines because they are good weapon for the class.

    Sadly, inventory systems/classless systems are harder to balance. Still, i would much prefer to have more choices. I would love to sacrifice spare ammunition for all my weapons and ability to heal myself as combat medic to get striker with limited ammunition. I would even be happy if i medical applicator would be locked to rank 1. If even further sacrifices are necessary, i could loose nanoveawe armor/what ever i have equipped in that slot.
    I think it would not be overpowered, but because i would like it, i would enjoy the game a lot more. And just like in real life, people should still specialize not because they are forced to, but because specialized roles are more effective when people work together. Though since i often don't play with squads/platoons, this would help me be more useful for my team, without replacing combat medics or replacing heavy assaults.

    In fact i think that if people could choose what combination of things they want to do, they could become better team players. Not necessarily, but possibly. If heavy assault does not like using his rocket launcher but plays heavy because they have lmgs and shields, they would be better team players if rocket launcher would be replaced with medical applicator or something.

    It would be a lot of work to balance, but it already is a lot of work to keep this game balanced. Its not like it would need to be overnight instant chance, it could be slowly implemented one step at the time - ASP perks being that good first step.
  11. TR5L4Y3R

    ..... how bout we NOT give infiltrators lmg´s .. cause it both doesn´t fit them AND is silly ..
    specifically if you give them longrange lmg´s like the gaussaw, sure it isn´t as hard hitting as a boltaction but it is a heavyhitter of the lmg´s still with lots of ammo with less need to reload on a class that can be almost invisible and relocate, pair that with empgranades and you could potentionaly clean rooms .. soooo no lets not do that ..

    giving the infiltrator ASP on weapons is a bit tough ...
    you could give them shotguns as primary (and people will come to speak about the short betatest with apearantly very horrible experinces but) i take shotguns over snipers cause they then get into a range were i can engage them ...

    the other option could be scoutrifle secondary so a infil theoreticaly could combine that with either a sniper or smg .. if that makes sense ...

    however i am still for giving infils access to AV grenades ... YES let them actualy be able to blow up vehicles .. but that would require them being hardcore on that with grenadebandolier minimum and explosive crossbow for full dedication ..
  12. Novidian

    Why not SMGs in secondary slot?
    Or perhaps a +20% run speed/crouch boost when cloaked?
    Even a permanent proximity radar when cloaked.

    Something that fits the role and isn't absolutely bonkers.
  13. ican'taim

    PS1 balanced infiltrators by giving them a tiny inventory and could only hold a pistol. You'd also need to allocate ammo for it as well. That being said... you could shoot WHILE cloaked, leading to situations where there would be an infil lobbing endless plasma grenades (basically a grenade that would damage you over time) from who knows where.

    Back to the topic, yeah no. SMG infils are bad enough already.
  14. nagibator

    +rocket launcher
    • Up x 1
  15. SarahM

    I strongly believe that heavy weaponry (e.g. LMGs) does not fit the infiltrators class identity.

    Having ways for infils to help make base captures easier (e.g. shortcuts which can be hacked to enable shorter or alternative routes to the control point) would be nice to have, but is unrelated to ASP skills for infils.

    The ability to carry more motion spotters/recon darts, or being able to bring both, would be usefull and would help not only the infiltrator themselves, but also the team.
  16. Booface

    I'm not exactly sure this would be OP, but it would be weird for infiltrator internal balance. Why would you ever take one of the auto scout rifles if an LMG is available, which is better at all ranges with none of the tradeoffs?
    • Up x 1
  17. Necron

    Simple: SMG in the secondary. ASP fixed.
  18. Badman76

  19. Cullwch

    Controversial opinion, but I think the whole ASP weapon unlock thing was a bad idea. It eliminates tactical and strategic choice when there is too little opportunity cost to picking something. Infiltrators are SUPER STRONG. In terms of sheer killing potential, they have access to some of the most deadly, difficult to counter weapons and the tactical advantage of being able to pick 9/10 engagements, but across the entirety of the game, this is balanced through very specific weapon effectiveness and engagement ranges. Basically, infiltrators don't really have cookie cutter, generalist weapons the way other classes have, outside of the low magnification BASRs, and those require a load of practice.

    Giving infiltrators lmgs or any comparable weapon class which includes generalist cookie cutter weapons is a bad idea, especially when you consider the magazine capacity of the SAW, for instance, with its damage model. You now have a guy who can conveniently reload cloaked or behind a tree, disengage at typical SAW ranges with comedic ease, and he can dish out up to 20k damage in a single mag. Or the Betelgeuse, which is cooling down in cloak, so just nevermind the reload - keep firing!

    Nah, it's a bad idea.
    • Up x 1
  20. Tattoon

    I believe it was a stupid idea to even give this class Submachine gun.
    • Up x 1

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