[Suggestion] Are you guys going to fix the NC maxes?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Destroyer0370, Jun 9, 2019.

  1. LordKrelas

    Does Server-Smash have vehicles?
    Aircraft?
    Isn't it specific bases, with fixed count of players? In bases, no less, so no open fields.
    Doesn't it also have near only Good-accuracy, high-skill players?

    So, it's in bases, without vehicles, aircraft, mostly short-ranges, same numbers, and everyone is equally skilled.
    So NC's weapons are:
    Accuracy-Demanding & Rewarding for LMGs, Carbines, ARs.
    Heavy Close-Quarters weapons galor.
    MAXes with dedicated Close-range capabilities.
    So, for a controlled environment, with basically the perfect close-range environment, over-specialized equipment wins when paired with Skill.

    So is server-smash, perfect for how an larger expansive battle works out? No.
    How in hell is it the divine showcasing, that the NC is fine?
    As in a heavily controlled match, they win? Dear lord.

    Aircraft, had the range, the speed, and the TTK advantage.
    Thermals granted them the god-vision to see Any poor sod trying to fire on them, and vaporize them.
    As Camo didn't work, and all AA weapons past the Striker, need LOS to the aircraft.
    While Lock-ons also needed extended time exposed; Which gives the Aircraft warning.
    This amplified the Aircraft's ability to first-strike, as it could find near any squishy target near instantly.
    When Air lost their Thermals: They kept every single other advantage.

    The Shotgun Max; this thing is not sneak-attacking casually.
    This thing, works in close-range only.
    This thing is out-ranged by everything, past a land-mine.
    When the MAX's weapons were brutalized, the MAX gained nothing, it lost the single thing the weapons had working:
    Their alpha strike: Now, their performance in the single range, is matched or outdone by a weapon, That has None of their disadvantages.

    The Mercy has:
    Ample ammunition to throw away rounds outside practical firing & optimal firing ranges.
    A reload so quick, it can not be punished for reloading.
    An RPM that doesn't care about severe misses.

    All Maxes, are best in closer-ranges, as that is optimal;
    NC however, can only operate in one range: And are easily punished for any error, like misses.

    Try considering, if a Carbine at less range, less magazine capability, longer reloads,
    And their opponent had a Carbine that had better stats in all these fields...
    Even if the first carbine originally had a short-range Alpha-strike advantage, the moment it lost that, It lost the entire value.
    As now, it has inferior stats, and no redeeming feature.

    Lets go to your Thermals for aircraft:
    It lost the ability to instantly see any infantry in range, that it could murder rapidly, or were a threat.
    It kept, the TTK advantage over these infantry.
    It kept the speed advantage over all other vehicles.
    It kept the Built-in Radar & Self-repair over all other vehicles.
    It kept the firepower \ killing-power that it had.

    What did it lose? The ability to rapidly find targets it had a severe advantage over, in an incredibly short period.
    It has kept every single advantage it had on top of that.

    What did the NC MAX Have:
    • Alpha Strike
    • Large Health Pool (Same as all Maxes)
    • Frontal-Shield

    What does the MAX suffer from:
    • Slowest Speed in Game (As are all MAXes)
    • Largest Targeting Profile (As are all Maxes)
    • Longest Reload time
    • Smallest Magazine size
    • Shortest Range (Let alone viable range)

    What did the Update do:
    It removed the Alpha Strike from NC.

    This means, NC has:
    • Frontal-Shield
    • Large Health Pool (Shared with all Maxes)

    At the cost of:
    • Slowest Speed in Game (As are all MAXes)
    • Largest Targeting Profile (As are all Maxes)
    • Longest Reload time
    • Smallest Magazine size
    • Shortest Range (Let alone viable range)
    • Lowest DPS
    • Lowest Damage-Output

    When NC lost their Alpha strike..
    They literally added another weakness, to a list that is Longer than any other MAX.
    Let alone the ESF, which has a perk list as long as this list of weaknesses.

    TR\VS MAX Advantages:
    • Highest DPS
    • Highest Damage-Output
    • Longest Range (Viable range is slightly longer than NC, for best output, but is still short)
    • Largest Magazine Sizes
    • Shortest Reload Times
    • Large Health Pool (Same as all maxes)
    Costs:
    • Slowest Speed in Game (As are all MAXes)
    • Largest Targeting Profile (As are all Maxes)
    • Garbage Abilities
    For 450 Nanites, TR & VS gain a MAX: With the most strengths, but no decent class ability.
    For 450 Nanites, NC gains a max that has more weaknesses than TR or VS, and equal advantages to their Disadvantage counts.
    In Server Smash, How useful are Maxes in their play?
    As most of NC in play, is likely landing their head-shots.
    If they're not, They're likely using the short-ranges of the battle, without any of the Distance issues That occur...
    You know, When you capture a base, you have to go out of a small room, Or into a field:
    We don't just teleport to the Enemy cap points.
    That might, just perhaps be the largest Critical problem for the comparison:
    To win Alerts, You can't play Run-between-buildings inside the same base for an hour.
    The distance of 20 meters comes up a lot more, As does Vehicles, and Aircraft; Which if you remember.
    NC isn't exactly winning on those fronts either:
    You can have the best infantry in the world, You can't do an infantry zerg against Main Battle tanks.
    And you certainly can't teleport across an open-field with a Shotgun: Someone has to actually cross that field.
    As otherwise, you aren't getting into the buildings: Which you also have to leave, to actually win the map.
    A vehicle-less game, that doesn't handle dynamic battlefields, but bases: You wonder how a weapon that is specialized for bases works, there, but not in the grand scheme? Maybe due to it not being won by enclosed boxes.
    • Up x 1
  2. adamts01

    You guys are overreacting. I'll just pick the Mercy and Mattocks since they're both popular and my personal favorites.

    Mattocks: 300 damage x 3 shots per second x 2 guns = 1,800 dps. Out to 15m. Move accuracy of .5 with 1.75 bloom.

    Mercy: 125 damage x 7 shots per second x 2 guns = 1,770 dps. Move accuracy of 1.75.

    So the Mattocks not only slightly wins the dps race, it has a protected reload. It beats the Mercy's damage out to 15 meters, and let's face it, no max weapons are good past that range. We're talking about the hipfire accuracy of a stock tengu, that's the magic long range gun you think TR has.

    Seriously, that looks fairly well balanced to me. Maybe not perfect, but definitely not deserving of the "sky is falling" kind of whining you hear over that thing.

    "but muh shotguns", no they don't dominate up close anymore, because TR never dominated at mid range and VS never dominated at long range. That's called balanced.

    To the server smash thing, yeah, NC does great. That's because of 2 reasons. They dominate up close (exactly where point holds/takes take place), and they have weapons with a high skill ceiling. "Not noob friendly", OK, I'll absolutely agree, but if the potential ceiling is already higher, do they really need a buff? Better starter weapons maybe, especially for the HA. I'm torn in the Reaver, but ESF will never be new player friendly. I just don't buy that NC have this incredible handicap, especially if we're talking vets.
  3. LordKrelas

    1,800 DPS vs 1,700 DPS
    Longest Range , of the NC's shotgun options, vs the longest range of TR's.
    Great, slight DPS advantage: what about the other stats that come in?
    That Shotgun DPS, of 3 shots per second: That's pellets, so their damage there relies on all hitting correct?
    How's the gun's clip size? Okay, compare to TR's, Which do you think is getting that DPS reliably?
    At 15 meters, what do you think the odds are, of hitting every pellet for each of the three shots?

    Protected reload: Which is the longest reload; and is a common thing, as small magazine
    Given if it wasn't "protected" from the front, wouldn't that NC MAX just be straight dead? Yes.
    When does that TR MAX reload? And how long is that reload?
    Infrequent and incredibly fast Reload... While the NC is often reloading.

    Maybe the Shield, is so the MAX isn't suicide?

    So, Server-Smash is full of vets, that aren't the typical rank & file...
    The entire battle is inside the Pocket of specialization,unlike the real game..
    And there's no vehicle or aircraft influence.
    How exactly is Server-Smash useful in the slightest, for Average-Players across the servers?
    It doesn't have the average people, it doesn't at all have the average battle terrain, The player count is a fixed-number, and unlike the real thing, No bloody vehicles come into play, nor does having to keep a Sunderer alive, nor any standard play past Controlling specific control-points..
    Likely in a base, that was chosen, to be "Fair" to the sides involved.

    In short:
    Why exactly is Server-Smash used to claim all NC for several years just can't get good?
    It has nothing close to the environment where Any normal gameplay is.
    No vehicles, Perfect close-quarters only (NC's literal strong-point), fixed-numbers, and Equal-skilled perfect with no new players.

    Mean while on Live:
    Close-range is not every waking second, Numbers are not fixed.. Vehicles exist, and skill is variable.

    It's akin to going, "The Spiker, in the situation of killing a MBT, is the Most effective tool. Players should get good, and realize, that they can get behind an MBT at a distance, and whittle it down with a squad. So the Spiker, is an effective Anti-tank tool. So the removal of VS's entire Rocket-Launcher set, is not an issue"
    Which is complete bull, as That is an impractical situation:
    Which means if the Weapon's capability wasn't absurdly low anyway, that situation isn't practical to use.
    How often can you get an MBT to sit still for a squad of Spikers to kill it?

    Now why I say that:
    At what point, does a Pellet-Firing short-range low-magazine weapon, at their furthest range, get considered viable at killing..
    Compared to a Weapon that has a larger magazine, shorter reload, and isn't firing pellets.
    As perfect DPS, with one gun, assuming every pellet hits, with a small magazine.. A 'protected reload" achieves..
    Absolutely nothing p

    You don't buy the Handicap NC has had.
    You just said, the perfect environment for a shotgun, in an isolated bubble with strictly vets..
    Is presentation of regular play, and that NC needs to get good, as a NC in a Vehicle-less Game in only close-quarters can kill with a shotgun.
    In which case, I assume Infantry-shotguns must be pretty OP, as the concept of range isn't in Server-smash.
    And Sniper rifles, must really need a Buff as well, as their target is 10 meters away in that environment.

    • Up x 1
  4. Campagne

    There are theories, but they are without evidence of the claim. There is no reason to believe only the worst players choose NC or that only the better players choose TR or VS, or that because of a running joke an entire faction across all servers all across the world people suddenly act as though the joke was reality, which suddenly becomes untrue once more upon changing faction.

    If you tell me I'm more liable to friendly fire because of the faction I'm currently playing as I'd deliberately try to fire more carefully, on top of the fact that the majority of my weapons would be more detrimental to both me and my allies upon accidentally hitting them instead of an enemy, compared to another weapon from a rivaling faction.

    There is just no reason to believe this.

    Server smashes are not an accurate depiction of real in-game conditions. Furthermore, you're forgetting the fact that the NC did the best while not encountering TR or VS MAXes, MBTs, or ESFs despite entirely lacking their own equivalents. If a server smash was indicative of anything, surely that would speak volumes.

    Unfortunately the Mattock will fire a spread, not a single 300 damage shot. It is extremely likely to have one or more pellets miss in a firefight. This negatively impacts the potential DPS of the Mattock to a significantly greater extent than a miss from a Mercy.

    Also your listed stats aren't quite right. Mattocks have a moving CoF of 0.5 and bloom of 0.5, with a pellet spread of 1.75. As I'm sure you already know firing a shot places a zero-damage center-point somewhere within the 0.5 area which then randomly places the three pellets around this point by a degree of 1.75. Subsequent shots increase the area in which the central point can be placed by 0.5 per shot. Shotguns in PS2 have very wonky and counter-intuitive mechanics. :confused:

    Comparatively, the Mercy places a bullet somewhere within the 1.75 area and each shot increases the area by 0.05 respectively. To put it plainly the Mattock relies and luck twice in a row for a single shot and requires these shots to land the majority or all pellets to land to deal any "meaningful" damage. (I.E. no more than one pellet can miss to still consider the shot "damaging.") The Mercy just places a bullet somewhere in the cone, increases the size by a factor of 0.05, and places another bullet.

    That is very not balanced! And believe me I've been killed by many a MAX (though I do suspect significant manipulation for most of them) at ranges beyond 15 meters. Though it is a farse to say the other two MAXes couldn't dominate at mid or greater range if not in short and CQC range just the same.

    Ask me, they do great because infantry is about the only thing the NC is really comparable in. Nothing to hold them back, and a little bit of luck sprinkled on top always helps.

    But "dominate up close?" With what? Jackhammers? Hardly. GD-7Fs? GR-22s? Maybe Anchors? I'd think only as much as the TR and VS do with Lynxes/Kindreds and Serpents, TORQs/TARs and H-V45s, Carvs/Watchmans and Orions/MAWs.

    What weapons have such high skill-ceilings? Little to none can achieve notable TTK differences if any through very high skill compared to another weapon given equal skill.

    I'm not saying the NC is particularly handicapped but it should come as no surprise to see them fail time and time and time again.
  5. Liewec123

    Firstly you've already admitted your spite and hatred for NC max and your joy at seeing it get ZOEd,
    So there's that...

    Secondly is your defense of this abomination really going to be "look! Your shotguns deals similar damage to this long range TR chaingun!" Seriously?
    Just ignore the fact that mercy has much more range and far greater sustain.
    Screw this "protected reloads" nonsense, TR and vs don't need to reload...not until everything is dead.
    Cosmos and Mutilator can fire for over 20 damn seconds straight...
  6. LodeTria


    This is all wrong, but then people speaking about **** they don't know about as fact is common here:

    SeverSmash has every vehicle and most weapons. Aircraft, specifcally ESF, Valk & galaxy, get the most use because they react the fastest across the continent & troop deployment. Sunderers & ANT's Are used to ram inside bases where possible in an attempt to contain defenders & hold ponts. Tanks don't really get used at all since they are expensive and slow to relocate and do poor inside bases.

    Openfields aren't used because openfields have no value. You can hold an openfield if you want, but the enemy is just gonna galaxy over you to the cap-point, which decides who actually holds the territory.

    MAXes were banned because it was considered too easy to either hold or wipe points. A2A missiles are usually banned because it takes no skill to set up a A2A missile squad and win, and they can dual purpose at A2G

    SS takes place over the whole continent that is slected, with the teams as balanced as possible both skill-wise and Pop-wise. There is no specific bases used as the whole arena.

    Anyone can join SS, from bads like you, promlg noscope sniper man, to bad pilot to Skynight Ace.

    Stop speaking about stuff you know jack**** about.
  7. LordKrelas

    Adam brought it up.

    Aircraft, being used specifically for a highly controlled event... to ferry
    While Vehicles only, from that, to get them inside bases?

    Open-Fields, are something you encounter in live.

    Most weapons: With straight bans on several, including MAX Units.

    So, Serversmash is far from live, and has variable skilled users.
    Fantastic: So, you going to tell Adam, that if MAXes are banned, Him mentioning it, for why NC's maxes are fine, is flawed?
    After all; If it literally bans weapons & units, which are in Live; Isn't that good for ****-all?
  8. pnkdth


    Those restrictions and stuff weren't always there and ESFs played a huge part in winning. Miller airforce, for example, often managed to out-kill even HAs and displacing LMGs as the weapons with most kills and their favoured tool of choice was the AH. NC drove the meta on Server Smash and some servers actually chose NC to deny the Miller airforce the AH.

    I would agree it is not a perfect reflection of Live but at the same time it has showed us what can be done. Kinda funny that when some outfits went full server smash on Live they wrecked stuff. Some cheesy tactics but imagine instead of players getting salty, they'd step up?
    • Up x 1
  9. FateJH

    If you want to deal with issues, some times you need to "step down," back away from a solution or a convenient explanation upon which success is relied, and make the claim that something doesn't and perhaps shouldn't feel right.