Are the VS getting screwed with this Anniversary Pack?

It's not that it doesn't exist, it's just that it's not really viable. Experienced players understand that the disco fureh doesn't really pose a threat, which nullifies the purpose of supression, which is to deter people from advancing.

A similar scenario exists in real life in Airsoft actually. Supression with LMG style weapons isn't as viable because players understand that they won't actually die if they charge ahead. Only in airsoft, it's at least painful to charge into an M249, and can cause lengthy bleed-out times and score loss for your team. There really isn't any consequence to dying in PS2, so it hurts the idea of supression even more.

^QFT!

one of those times that i feel like i've played an absolutely major role in capping a base was as my lockdown dual pounder max, holding an entrance that was down a set of stairs, i simply spammed pounders at the ground outside the door, racked up a ton of kills and completely stopped the enemy zerg from entering that way, most of our force was covering the other entrance there was just me an engi (thank vanu for ammo packs!) and afew randoms covering this entrance.
i've used lasher in many similar situations (though i still prefer running in and dodging irratically while chipping away at the health of all the enemies)
i simply can't understand how anyone can dislike the lasher!

Wasn't the striker super OP at one point, and so were fractures as well. Anchored prowlers at one point were also way too good VS air as well.

Now see, let me just replace Pounder with Lasher and some other fluff and see if it still makes sense.

One of those times that i feel like i've played an absolutely major role in capping a base was as my disco ball wielding heavy, holding an entrance that was down a set of stairs, i simply spammed lasher balls at the ground outside the door, racked up a ton of kills and completely stopped the enemy zerg from entering that way, most of our force was covering the other entrance there was just me an engi (thank vanu for ammo packs!) and afew randoms covering this entrance.

No. It ceases to be believable. Why? Because nobody would sit and ignore a heavy with a lasher, they would rush him. Additionally, if in the Pounder scenario there was an onrush of players, they deal more damage especially given the fact there were (I assume) two of them.

I think this is very true, people simply arent afraid of running into a couple of bullets or a bit of low explosive damage.
Its often easy to time a run through HE or air spam to (as long as its not saturated with farmers of course)

I personally class the lasher as a good supression tool. Although imo 50% of its supression value is in its psychological effect.
Often its dark, you cant see the VS - there are heavies everywhere and the one path you want to take is a green strobing blur with AOE damage. Its time to redeploy and find a toilet to cower in.

It feels like you're fishing for arguments to make.

Not at all. What I've said is perfectly valid; a Pounder MAX suppressing does a better job at suppressing than a Lasher, yet the Lasher is meant to be unique in its ability to suppress. The MAX is also more able to defend itself against an onrush (but the comparison of survivability of MAX vs HA is irrelevant), so not only is the Pounder MAX better at suppression, it also offers more utility.

Actually they have a point. When you use a lasher, You instantly become the highest aggro. Not because its powerful or anything, But simply because you become the biggest most audible target around that is easy to spot. Snipers, Tanks, Air units.. All of them want to rip your head off the second you start firing the lasher. Before anyone tries to say "Because its so good" Bull, Its because you are the easiest target to see and hear, Nothing more.

Thanks to this thread I just pulled out the Lasher again, awesome! Thanks for reminding me, despite you being overly whiny and negative, of how awesome that weapon is.

So you have not used the lasher in so long you actually forgot how "awesome" it was... Wonder why that could be? Oh wait! Thats because the lasher is a joke compared to its TR/NC equivilents, Maybe thats why you haven't used it in so long that you forgot "How awesome that weapon is"... Out side of using it for a glorified light show, The weapon is a joke and is outclassed by anything it faces head on, which may I remind you, Is not the case for the Jackhammer or the Chaingun. Your enemies can only be so ignorant before they realize "Hey.. This things explosive damage is a joke, Ill just rush it!"

Any weapon that can fire can do "Suppression". Go get a chaingun, Fire it through a single door with enemies without stopping. See how many enemies try to run through that door. Well! Look at that, Something just surpassed the only thing the lasher can do.

Bullets can only suppress through openings. So that chaingun means that I can't hang out in the doorway, but I can easily take cover just behind the doorframe.

Explosions, like the Lasher, can make it so that I can't hang out behind the doorframe as I'm constantly getting splashed. So I need to take cover deeper into the room or further back from a corner, which in turn frees that cover up for the enemy to use.

It's sort of like suppressing a doorway with a Kobalt or Furies. Kobalts will keep infantry from moving into the doorway, but Furies will force infantry back out of the splash zone.

At this point I don't think there is anything in the API that determines splash/direct hits, but I think it could be possible to implement. Remember that headshot kills are tracked, so I don't see why direct hits to the player model couldn't be tracked too, that would then give you a splash metric.

There are a couple of further weapon metrics that if it was feasible, I would be interested to get implemented in the oracle:
ExperiencePerUnique, ExperiencePerHour
DamagePerUnique, DamagePerHour

Experience is probably almost possible now, but with the API as it stands it is unwieldy in that experience events can't be subscribed by event - e.g just kill/assist events. Also weapon IDs aren't reported in the experience events, so would have to be compared against Kill events - which may end up leaving out various experience events.

Damage doesn't exist in the API at present.

With the above metrics it would perhaps be a better comparison between the Lasher/JH/MCG - it's typically said that the Lasher results in a lot of kill assists.

The Lasher might generate lots of kill assists but what it does not generate is lots of kills.

It is the weakest of the HA weapoms especially compared to the JH/MCG its weak in suppression compared to the Pounder max and you need a squad or more using it to do any good...

A squad of LMG users also can kill or suppess just a lot more effectively.

The lasher has more playtime then the J/H yet less KPU, KPH and kills, in fact it regularly comes last in all the metrics except time used...

Or you could simply rush the pathetic explosive damage it does (like most do) and just kill its user. Its fire rate is so slow that any weapon you have will defeat it provided you can aim.

I love how hard some of you are trying to defend it under performing like it is, Its pathetic.

It's also enormously popular, so you're not just arguing with me, but with all those VS players who find it rewarding. Otherwise it wouldn't be used more than the Jackhammer, no?

But that's the thing with suppression... it prevents you from being able to freely engage the enemy.

When you damage most infantry players, they tend to back off until their shields regen. So by inflicting small, non-lethal damage to them you can effectively forestall a push.

Additionally suppressed infantry will be much less accurate in returning fire or in even figuring out exactly where the enemy fire is coming from.

And finally, sure someone who has half their shields knocked out can try for a push in the open... but they'd likely be cut down by a variety of other things before they can make it far.

Its popular for the simple fact its a glorified light show when players in platoons and squads are wanting to show boat and troll. Out side of that, you will not see the lasher used. Statistically, The weapon is not viable against anything. In a 1v1 fight, The weapon is outclassed by pretty much every single other weapon.

Trying to defend it being under powered on the grounds that it can do 25 damage to someone at 3m is not a good argument.

Again we simply disagree, aim enough non-AOE weapons at a door and it becomes a killzone that you cannot exits, the benefit with weapons with a bit of splash is they also make the just out of LOS area around the door/window/wall a killzone too.

Of course there's a consequence to dying in PS2 in terms of suppression, you're dead. Temporaily, certainly, but in that time you're doing nothing to retake or take the base.

Every decent drop outfit knows exactly how to secure a cap point building and suppress any entrances, any Zerg does a similar thing to spawn-exits and choke-points between the spawn and cap point.




You seem to be trying to make an arguement that because suppression isn't a tool that works exceptionally well all the time it is worthless......... but rather suppression is a tool that works exceptionally well some of the time (like everything else in PS2), especially if you side has access to weapons like Lashers and Pounders.

It is the weakest, just, at killing, but it is the strongest, by far, at suppressive ability.

Again that way lies the PS1 Lasher 2.0 (and for many of the same reasons, the PS1 Lasher was a realitively high skill weapon too), and I don't believe DBG even after 10 years and a name change will ever make a mistake THAT big again.

I mean how can you buff the Lasher without making it way overpowered? Certainly they could remove the splash and just make it a basic LMG, but there'd be VS whines from the many that do use it suppressively if that did happen (and rightly so).





As for a direct comparrisions against the JH, look at many shotguns, all shotguns are difficult to compare because they are pulled and used in different ways.

Chaos | Q4 KPH | Daily Average: 41.51
NC05 Jackhammer | Q4 KPH | Daily Average: 37.14
Phobos VX86 | Q4 KPH | Daily Average: 35.09
Deimos VA29 | Q4 KPH | Daily Average: 34.67
T7 Mini-Chaingun | Q4 KPH | Daily Average: 32.06
Nova | Q4 KPH | Daily Average: 31.78
Lasher X2 | Q4 KPH | Daily Average: 29.21
VS NS Baron G5 | Q4 KPH | Daily Average: 27.99
Pandora VX25 | Q4 KPH | Daily Average: 26.60
Thanatos VE70 | Q4 KPH | Daily Average: 25.75

Shotguns are the better option for killing in some circumstance certainly, but then try suppressing with a shotgun and see how well that goes.

Yep, I can understand how people dislike the Lasher if they try to use it like they might an Orion, but then that is like trying to use a Pounder for AA.

It may vary from server to server, but people seem to understand and use suppression on my main server on all sides and you're right the Lasher actually works in a way that makes it similar (or at least the most similar of anything in PS2) to how the Thumper could be used in PS1 (or indeed the PS1 Lasher), which is to say in the right circumstances it works as a direct assault weapon too, it just isn't so hot in a "pro-MLG" 1 on 1 sense.

i think it still works the same, the aoe is rather large and when people see their shield dropping (fairly quickly i might add) they usually cower back, you'll have the odd rambo rushing in, but like i said, i had a few guys with me.

don't underestimate the lasher!

Stop hating on my discoball thrower! it's awesome!
have you ever witnessed a continent-lock party from vanu? with 20+ people firing their lasher against the warpgate ceiling?
if the Anniversary edition of the Lasher had purple balls instead of white ones and a different explosion,
i'd buy it right away