Are the VS getting screwed with this Anniversary Pack?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Foxirus, Nov 10, 2015.

  1. Goretzu

    Again the Lasher wasn't "made to compete" with the MCG or the JH. :confused:

    It is effectively impossible to balance the MCG against the JH, because they are very different weapon types, never mind the Lasher.

    As I have repeatedly said IF the Lasher was turned in a LMG or a Shotgun type weapon (losing ALL splash and lash) THEN it could be balanced directly with either the MCG or the JH (but not both) and fair enough if you want that (although plenty of players like the Lasher as a suppressive weapon), but that's a very different kettle of fish.

    As things stand the JH is balanced against SHOTGUNS.

    The MCG is balanced against LMGs.

    And the Lasher is balanced againts...... well basically just ITSELF.

    You are just never going to get a be all/do all type weapon as the Lasher (i.e. the same as the PS1 Lasher 2.0 was) as the Devs aren't remotely that daft and understand what it would do to the game.
  2. Foxirus

    I would like you to prove that it was not made to compete with the weapons it was made with. As it stands now, That is your opinion. If it was not made to compete with the Jackhammer and the MCG, Why was it put in the exact same heavy directive as the others? Why was it made and released at the same time as its faction specific counter parts?

    You act as if I am trying to get the entire gun buffed. Not entirely, I just want either its suppressive abilities increased (This would bring its stats close to the others) or its direct head to head abilities increased (This would also bring it in line with the others).

    When was the last time you heard someone say "The Jackhammer/MCG is overperforming compared to this LMG or that Shotgun"? Thats right.. Never. Because those weapons are NOT balanced off of other LMGs or shotguns, They are balanced off each other.
  3. Goretzu

    Because they are a carry-over from the PS1 "heavy weapons" and even there they weren't really directly balanced (ask anyone about Agile + JH noobs). :confused:

    The weren't created to be equal with each other at all (or they all be Shotguns/LMGs/Thumpers).

    The JH performs about the same as the PA shotguns, it is more flexible, but not really more powerful.

    The problem with the Lasher is that it does things nothing else does (except the current Pounder and the old Fracture 1.0) and its power is very much not only in KPH.

    For every time I've been killed by a Lasher I will have been forced back unable to do what I was going to do 20 times, and that will be the same for pretty much everyone (and remeber the Lasher Q4 aKPH isn't much lower than the MCG to begin with).

    The MCG and JH though just tend much more to kill or be killed.
  4. Eternaloptimist

    This is the point, surely? disco balls, heat mechanic on some directive weapons, charge up on Phaseshift and Lancer, Frisbee hill climbing hip swinging Mag-thingy. Some VS weapons seem to be unique which can sometimes equate to niche. They may not compare directly to other faction weapons and may not be useable in the same ways. I often find VS are either a push-over or are unstoppable. After getting overrun I wonder if it was a case of coming up against a VS team who really understood/knew how to use their gear to best effect.

    Personally, when I play VS I can't hit squat with a Lancer and I'm just canned meat in any kind of tank. I use the very basic but oh so reliable Polaris or the VX6-7 carbine so I can only go on some of the wtf! things I've seen allies or enemies do with the Lasher (or the other weirdy weapons) on occasion.
  5. Foxirus

    Why do I need to ask them? This is not Planetside 1, It will never be Planetside 1. They were two VERY different games. In fact, Its safe to say the only thing the two have in common is the faction names and the fact theyre both FPS.

    At this point in time, You don't have the right to say that. Players have sacrificed literally everything else on the alter of balance. Why stop now? The only reason you are trying to stop the Lasher from getting a buff is because faction Bias, Nothing more.

    Right, Because it 3 round burst with clientside hit detection and a tighter spread wouldn't be more powerful. The MCG and Jackhammer outclass at least SOME of their selective weapon types. The Lasher? It doesn't outclass ANYTHING in the LMG catagory. Explosive radius is not enough to say the weapon isn't a glorified LMG.

    Really? Any enemy that can fire into a doorway is actively suppressing it. Whens the last time you tried to rush into a door that an enemy was actively firing through? Hopefully never, Because thats damage you are taking instantly before you can even sight them. You cannot say the lasher does things nothing else can, Because thats not true in the slightest.
    Wrong, The MCG wasn't much lower than the Jackhammer, Only by 2. The Lasher is 5 behind, And even further behind versus the Jackhammer. You can't even allow the lasher to be EVEN with the others because you wrongly think it would be OP if it was EVEN in stats. As for you getting killed by a Lasher and having to start over? For every kill that lasher user gets, They could have gotten nearly double that number with an LMG.
    So what? You are expecting me to just accept that the lasher is Suppress AND be killed? There is no OR about it, You use the lasher? You die. Its suppression is a damn joke. I could understand if you know, Rooms only had one entrance, But I have yet to see ANY building that has only one way in.
  6. Goretzu

    Yet that is the ONLY reason they DO exist in PS2! :)

    Again the Lasher is (IMO) balanced.

    It is just NOT a Shotgun or LMG (it is a disco-Thumper).

    I'd guess you've never actually used the JH otherwise you'd know that the triple-shot mode has a wider CoF than a PA Shotgun.

    Where as the Lasher remains the only (non-MAX) infantry based suppressive weapon in the game.

    Again no, they are only suppressing the outside of the doorway within LOS, the Lasher can suppress out of LOS which is a huge advantage.

    Chaos | Q4 KPH | Daily Average: 41.51
    NC05 Jackhammer | Q4 KPH | Daily Average: 37.14
    Phobos VX86 | Q4 KPH | Daily Average: 35.09
    Deimos VA29 | Q4 KPH | Daily Average: 34.67
    T7 Mini-Chaingun | Q4 KPH | Daily Average: 32.06
    Nova | Q4 KPH | Daily Average: 31.78
    Lasher X2 | Q4 KPH | Daily Average:29.21
    VS NS Baron G5 | Q4 KPH | Daily Average: 27.99
    Pandora VX25 | Q4 KPH | Daily Average: 26.60
    Thanatos VE70 | Q4 KPH | Daily Average: 25.75

    And as I said the Lasher does a LOT more than just kill.

    I'm not expecting anything from you.

    I'm saying that Lasher is balanced as a suppressive weapon as things stand and buffing it either 1 on 1 and retaining its current suppressive ability or buffing its current suppressive ability would make it too powerful (ok maybe it could take small velocity buff).

    You may think suppression is a "damn joke", but many, many people recognise its in-game power.
  7. Foxirus

    A velocity buff would be godsend. I'll take it.

    Anyways, I think I am done arguing about this. The thread is massive and has gotten thousands of views. It has more than served its purpose. Out of all those views, One Developer has to have viewed it. If just one has viewed it, Thats all that matters to me as I feel the issue at hand of it under performing will be looked into at least.

    With the release of the Lasher AE, I will probably revive this thread or make a new one depending on how its stats show. Because so many people want the black camo, We can learn without a single doubt if a fresh lasher on its stats is underpowered or not. I still believe it is mind you.

    No hard feelings to anyone, Talking can get a bit heated at times, Let it be known I do not hate any of you or dislike you in the slightest, Even if you dislike me. I bark loud, But do not bite.
  8. Goretzu

    Except it still is NOT "underperforming", as we can see above it "performs" (in Q4 aKPH) almost as well as the MCG does, which shows it is "performing" quite well and shows that any 1 on 1 buffs without a suppressive nerf would have it performing too well - just like the PS1 Lasher 2.0 did.

    I'm certain that if any DBG Developer thinks about the Lasher (they will remember or will have been told about the PS1 Lasher 2.0 - those that forget the lessons of the past are doomed to repeat them) they think the same thing, which is that the Lasher is balanced (as a suppressive weapon) as it is.

    Certainly the Lashers 1 on 1 strenght could be buffed, but then its suppressive strenght would have to be nerfed - it is just that simple.
  9. Foxirus

    Actually, I doubt they pull anything stat wise from Planetside 1. Think about it.. Look at the weapons we have now that they DID bring over.. EVen the ones that weren't OP, Like the spiker for example, Became a complete joke to their former glory. The magrider is a prime example. Its primary benefit in planetside 1 wasn't just hovering. It was the only tank that could 1/2 its main cannon, This was the balancing factor to having a fixed cannon. The rest of the tanks required a gunner to even use the main cannon. This is what made it worth not having the additional armor, The slower speed.

    I feel that velocity buff would give it the boost it needs to raise that lag in kills. Remember, Almost as well will never count. It needs to be equal. This will be the final time I respond to your arguments. As they are not changing, Mine will not either. I still look at ALL the stats and see its under performing. I didn't just cherry pick Q4. Remember, The lasher has been the same for the past two years, So you can use ALL the stats, Not just the cherry picked Q4.
  10. Goretzu

    They've only really taken concepts from PS1 mostly, likely because TTK and play-style in PS1 is vastly different.

    In the Lashers example (at least in the last version of it I used) it was a decent, if high skill, 1 on 1 weapon, because the high TTK in the game allowed for skill and tactical play to shine - in fact the PS1 Lasher 1.0 was too, just that not many people seemed to have the skill or patience to learn with it which resulted in the calls for it to be buffed and the disaster that followed.

    It is also why they've tried Thumper-style grenade launchers (at least) twice now (once on MAXs and once infantry) and so far they've realised that are a bad idea and pulled them - which is why the Lasher remains pretty unique in PS2.

    A small velocity buff might be ok, but it would have to be small, as it needs to remain slow comparatively (or else again it needs to be nerfed suppressively).

    Whether you respond or not doesn't change the reality though - the Lasher is more or less balanced as is (as a suppressive weapon - and is already powerful - as its Q4 aKPH shows).

    Which is why they've likely left it alone, the Devs can SEE how it performs, and when they look at things like assist data and damage delievered they will have empiric knowledge of just how well it works in its role.

    So again if the Lashers 1 on 1 strenght was to be buffed, then its suppressive strength would have to be nerfed - the Lasher cannot be buffed, only changed to remain balanced.
  11. ohknoh

    OOkay. When is the lasher good? When it's being used by a group of people. Just like the lancer, the lasher is only really effective when used by multiple players in coordination. So the real question is, is why are vanu special weapons only good in groups? Are they meant to be used that way, or is it that they're very weak otherwise? Now before you say that's their niche, Coordination can make any weapon in this game good. It's not a niche.

    Suppression fire is a joke, if people are popping in and out of cover, all they have to do is see your giant tracers to know where you are, pop around the corner and gun you down. You give away your position, and have no answer if the enemy decides to be aggressive and go for you. So yeah, for w/e reason people believe it's okay for vanu weapons to only be good in very specific, very questionable roles.
    • Up x 1
  12. Goretzu

    You'll never get a weapon that is great at 1 on 1 AND great at suppression - we've been down that road with the PS1 Lasher 2.0 and I don't believe any Dev will in any game ever make a mistake that huge again (by creating a be all & do all weapon and then watching it destroy their game).

    It is one or the other as the only sensible option.

    You can believe suppression is a waste of time in PS2...... you'd be completely wrong and likely have never played in a vaguely coordinated squad..... but you can still hold that belief if you wish (being wrong isn't illegal or immoral and it probably won't adversely affect your health).

    But claiming that a weapon that has the suppression ability of a Lasher and the 1 on 1 ability of say an Orion would somehow be "fine" is not just being wrong, it would be breaking the game, and as such it has to be pointed out (endlessly, if needed).
  13. ohknoh

    Never said anything close to that buddy. Why would i want an op weapon that winds up being nerfed after a few weeks. No I don't want the lasher to be as good as the orion, and good at suppression. I'm saying that it's not a good weapon compared to most others. It's a gimmick.

    The point that i made that you missed is that it's only good in a coordinated group, and whether or not this is acceptable. The jackhammer is good by itself, the MCG is as well. The lasher isn't. Is this okay? Everyone knows that the lasher can be used well for suppression if used by a coordinated group. But that's the nature of the game, not something that's unique to the lasher.

    So to reiterate, the issue isn't whether the lasher is good in groups, we know it is. The issue is whether or not it's acceptable to have a weapon who's ONLY good in groups, especially when compared to the other two weapons.
  14. Goretzu

    It is a suppressive weapon - it is what it is, buddy.

    A single Lasher isn't going to stop 10 or 20 people coming through a door any more than any other single weapon will; ALL weapons are more powerful in groups, this is neither surprising nor a revelation, chum.

    It doesn't exactly take a syncornised diving level of coordination for a couple of people to fire at the same doorway either, pal.

    Conversely try to suppress anything with JH or indeed fight anyone at 20m+ range. No weapon is great at everything, all have strengths and weaknesses, that is the nature of the game, me duck.
  15. asmodraxus

    So the Lasher is meant to suppress but not be any good at killing?

    If so its doing that really well unlike the other Heavy weapons which are just meant to kill the enemy's and suppress them that way...
  16. Goretzu

    Its Q4 aKPH is nearly as good at the MCGs, yet it (IMO) suppresses much better (although it is hard to tell precisely without assists and aDPS data).

    So where exactly does the "not good at killing" band start?
  17. asmodraxus

    Q4 KPH

    Lasher 30.091
    MCG 35.9734
    J/H 37.44

    Clearly close...

    BR100 AKPH

    Lasher 30.56
    MCG 34.91
    J/H 38.03

    So close, yet so far.

    So in conclusion the VS pay too dearly for the "suppression" in terms of poor weapon design for the so called "Lasher" (it doesn't Lash so should be renamed the splasher, seeing as it feels like using a rapid fire water baloon launcher).

    Maybe if the orbs did 25 damage to anyone within 5m of them passing by, then we could talk about being balanced but as it stands the lasher fails in terms of killing potential due to slow inaccurate projectiles at range and low fire rate, accuracy at close range. Now the VS don't want anything OP ie pin point accurate, highly damaging with a rapid fire rate (that honor goes to TR's long range AV weapons ;)) we would accept minor tweaks in terms of damage or CoF (I mean there was a time when the CoF was better in hip fire mode thats how bad the lasher has been).
  18. Goretzu

    The Q4 aKPH for the last 8 or so months are:

    7540 - Lasher X2 | Q4 KPH | Daily Average: 29.37
    7528 - NC05 Jackhammer | Q4 KPH | Daily Average: 37.75
    7533 - T7 Mini-Chaingun | Q4 KPH | Daily Average: 33.29

    Which when you consider that the Lashers much better ability to suppress is about right, because KPH doesn't record damage landed, assists or suppression value.

    No one is arguing that it get more Q4 aKPH than the MCG or the JH, but then no one is arguing that the JH is a better suppressive weapon (or even remotely A suppressive weapon either).

    However the nonsense that the Lasher "doesn not get kills" is completely false, it does, nearly as many as the MCG.

    The idea that the Lasher could have the SAME 8 month Q4 aKPH as the MCG AND retain its supressive ability is plain riduculous - if that is what you are suggesting. o_O

    So I ask again what exact 8 month value for Q4 aKPH would be "not good at killing"? Clearly you must believe is it between 29.37 and 33.29 that a gun goes from "not good at killing" to "good at killing"? So what is THE value? :confused:
  19. asmodraxus

    Suppresion is meaningless when any other ranged weapon is just as caperble of it.

    Do you rush into a door way held by NC troops aiming LMG's at it?

    Not more then once... As they suppress it by killing anyone that goes in.
  20. Goretzu

    The Lashers clear suppressive advantages over a plain projectile weapon are not remotely "meaningless".

    And as we have see it still kills rather well too!