[Suggestion] AP, HE and Heat Tank balance.

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by JojoTheSlayer, Jan 2, 2013.

  1. JojoTheSlayer

    I think in the sense of armor there is a too small difference between the weapon types.
    In most scenarios it pays to ether bring HEAT or HE to kill...everything and if a AP tank shows up you dont have to fear it that much more than another HEAT or HE tank.

    This tends to get the result where many tankers main goal basically is to spawn camp for infantry kills.

    I would rather see this balanced out more toward armor roles than just hit points and that HEAT would be lesser overall, but more armor than HE damage. Secondary weapons would be one role support weapons. They give you a less than 20%-50% boost vs ether inf, armor or air compared to their main gun counterparts. Little to nothing against other targets.


    Balance suggestion in broad terms:
    AP needs to do more armor damage, have longer range and faster projectile speed and little to no damage on infantry.

    HE needs to be "useless" against armor, more arch and slow projectile speed comparably to AP.

    HEAT needs to be, eg, 60% of AP vs armor and 50% of HE vs infantry and medium range.

    This way tanks would be forced to pick a role.
    (HEAT) Multi purpose medium range, but overall weaker.
    (AP Tank Hunter) Massive armor damage, long range, but vulnerable to infantry.
    (HE Inf Hunter) Massive infantry damage, very short range, but extremely vulnerable to AP tank hunters.


    Intended result:
    I think by doing this sort of balance you would get more tanks doing tanker jobs instead of them all just fighting each other toward the main goal of camping infantry. It would also mean in fewer player battles that IF a enemy chooses to get a HE tank to spawn camp a few players. They would have the options and good chance to win by getting a AP tank to clear him out. A HE tank should be scared seeing a AP tank role over the horizon similar to how infantry run away when a HE Lightning surprises them.

    If the enemy only brings HE tanks while friendlies only bring AP and the enemy loses they will still only be "camped" by big target that have little effect on them. Creating the effect that tank vs tank you would increase the use of AP and therefor decrease the use of HE and lowering infantry "camp potential".
    At least from armor.

    Right now I have HE Lightning and AP, HE and Heat for the Vanguard, but I usually never leave spawn without HE because its overall good against everything... AND you have the chance to totally dominate infantry. Specially in the low profile Lightning HE with night vision.

    • Up x 4
  2. Autarkis

    Remove HE ammunition. Replace it with teamwork in the form of a secondary gunner operating an optional anti-infantry weapon.
    • Up x 1
  3. Raidashi

    I have a friend that rolls lightning with AP rounds. He solo's Heavy tanks with very high success, specially if he can get a shot in on its rear. He says w/o it he usually doesnt stand half a chance.

    I use HE myself... Its really not worth me trying to shoot other armor unless i got backup.

    Naturally, together we kinda melt face. Its just too bad i feel lame when i roll armor.
  4. Gavyne

    I agree that HE should not hit armor for as much as it does now. AP needs to be pretty deadly, and feared by other tanks. Direct AP hits should not take so many shots to kill a tank. AP rounds can also use a speed boost, I challenge any devs to sit in a TR/NC tank and try to shoot AP rounds at a Magrider hovering.

    While HE rounds should be only effective against infantry, and not armor. Splash damage should also be changed so it doesn't go through the walls, because while I use HE a lot, I think it's cheap someone can spam HE and kill infantry that are clearly behind cover. People load HE because it's rewarding, while AP isn't. I love killing tanks, but with HE I can kill both tanks & infantry, allowing me to enjoy the benefits of both.
  5. Raidashi

    While i wont say that i wouldnt mind the effectiveness being a bit more exaggerated in either direction, the AP rounds are genuinely more effective against armor. It scales with where you hit too. As i said, a lightning loading AP is pretty devastating. Me, using HE, am just not.

    When theyre shooting back at you with HE, the AP rounds will tear them apart. At the same time, though the AP rounds dont explode (i think) they still are effective at taking out infantry when the need arises.

    HE rounds, as the game sits, is just more rewarding though, i'll agree to that its why i use them. But that will never change. People love racking up tons of kills with out trying, and you'll always get more certs in the same time than if you went toe to toe with other armor and its significantly more difficult.
  6. Gavyne

    It also depends on your faction. Me loading AP rounds shooting at Magriders is not fruitful. I'll miss majority of my shots, while they enjoy good shots on me, and a get out of the jail free speed boost when they get into trouble. Being NC and having to go up against Magriders is partly why I don't load AP rounds much anymore, because you can't hit them, and even if they come outside their vehicle to repair I still can't hit them because there's no splash damage. With HE, up against Magriders, at least you get a chance at killing the pesky engineers that are repairing these vehicles.
  7. SinerAthin

    If you are a Vanguard pilot, you shouldn't engage Magriders at a distance.

    Employ your shield and superior armor and close in, preferably from an alternative route where they won't be able to hit you as you close in. Magriders don't stand a chance vs Vanguards if they close the gap.

    Also, try ramming a Magrider, it completely messes up their main gun, being attached to the frame itself.
    I play NC from time to time and absolutely love riding straight into Magriders just for **** and giggles xD(just watch out for other Magriders/engineers)
  8. Gavyne

    Closing the distance is often impossible due to terrain, and the fact that VS likes to magrider spam so you'll be blown to pieces before you even got halfway close. This is one of those things that work great on paper, but ingame the strategy plays out a lot differently.

    Rarely do I find a chance where I can get close to a magrider. When I even remotely get close, they speed boost away.
  9. MrIDoK


    I've been thinking about this for a while... AP, HEAT and HE are supposed to be sidegrades, in theory.

    HEAT could get a small reduction in effectiveness agains infantry to promote Kobalts, but otherwise it's fine.
    Only the Viper HEAT autocannon for the Lightning feels bad. It's not good against tanks (too difficult to have good dps after 80 meters due to the recoil) and feels "meh" against infantry. Maybe give it only one shot with a very fast reload, so that you can suppress enemy tanks or infantry until you run out of ammo, just like the Bushmaster autocannon of the Bradley (IRL). Still bad dps, but at least you rain down a continuous fire over everything, which means good covering fire for infantry (after all, the default lightning feels like an infantry fighting vehicle just like the Bradley instead of an actual tank).

    AP needs a big boost to damage: in beta i loved my AP lightning, but i recently bought the Python HEAT and it feels nearly the same, with a tiny bit less damage and a far larger explosion radius. Better all around for 250 certs less.
    You lose all effectiveness against infantry (yes, you can snipe with it, but it's much easier to get a Kobalt and switch seats or get a gunner) but you don't get much of a gain against armor. It's silly, i've never been killed by AP rounds even though i love to run around in a Lightning and face other tanks!

    HE instead needs its damage versus armor to be nerfed to the ground. If you want to be also capable of damaging tanks just get a secondary gun, it's what they're for.

    I see no reason not to do this, the devs told us that the game was designed around the concept of "sidegrade", but we're not seeing a lot of this in vehicles, except for secondaries.
  10. HellasVagabond

    It's funny how many people say that AP rounds should have no splash damage (they already have almost no splash damage). I believe that when an 150mm AP round lands next or beneath an infantry (due to bunny jumping) it should take out any infantry.

    Armor wise as things are now we need TWO direct hits to kill a max, THREE to kill a stock Lightning (two from the rear) and 4-5 to destroy an stock Prowler/Magrider (3 from the rear).
    Long story short a waste of money so far.
  11. Ronaldspiers

    Yes please. HE rounds are so ridiculously unskillfull.

    Again I wouldnt mind them as much if bases had better cover: example is the bases with the layout the crown has - the tower type base that is basically undefendable once the enemy gets into the vehicle spawn at the bottom.

    There are a few of those bases (Especially on Amerish) that have hills next to them. These hill allow tanks to shoot HE rounds straight into all the floors of the base making it even harder to defend. I do not think any base should have this. If you want to cap a base the majority of them should require a proper infantry fight where vehicles cant touch you when you are on the inside
  12. Adamar09

    A big problem with stuff like the HE is explosions going straight through rocks, walls, etc.

    I don't agree with AP being nerfed against infantry (it already requires a direct hit, which is, at least for me, quite hard to do. There is effectively no splash.) but the other ideas are solid.
  13. JojoTheSlayer

    Already 30% of my kills in a Lightning HE are direct hits on infantry.
    I actually go for them because the projectile speed is such its easy to do it and I am by no means a pro.

    With the increase shell speed and lower arch I am talking about to get better AP tank vs tank battles you would need to lower its damage on infantry to prevent is becoming a AI sniper rifle with tank armor. A hit should therefor not do more than 40% damage on infantry so they can run away and heal. Why 40% and not 50%? So you need 3 shots and prevent indirect tandem teams (A bunch of tanks on a hill shooting at inf hoping they hit a hurt one or hit one that the other guy just hit. Pretty common among infantry snipers actually).
  14. UberBonisseur

    AP projectile is already faster than HEAT which is faster than HE
  15. Adamar09

    40%... I dunno. With the slow refire rate unless they're really inept it would be impossible to kill them.

    The difference is fairly small, all things considered.
  16. JojoTheSlayer

    Which is the point.
    You want to have the ability to kill infantry, take the HE cannon instead. Want a chance to defend yourself against a lone wolf infantry get the secondary Cobalt AI machine gun on top of your AP tank. Using the AP gun vs infantry or the HE cannon vs a AP tank should be a no go.

    In other games like "The Darkest Hour" I used to snipe tank commander popping out of their turret at 600m with AP. With the Magrider in Beta, when it had little arch, I could do the same vs infantry on air tower ramps etc. The ranges ingame are not long enough for AP to do good infantry damage on hits and not unbalance the whole point my OP post is trying to address.
  17. Adamar09

    I drive a lightning, so that isn't really an option.

    The idea of being helpless (actually helpless) against infantry just rubs me the wrong way a little. It would probably be balanced, but...
  18. Flarestar

    With the game's current design, unless you're in a long range tank battle in relatively open terrain, HE is the most viable option. It still does decent damage to armor, but more importantly it lets you reliably take out infantry, who are actually a much larger threat due to having access to weapons that make damage from other tanks look like pinpricks. I've no idea how many tanks I've killed now that had AP loaded just by walking up and C4/AT mining them because they simply couldn't hit me.