Anti Air partisans - A global invitation

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Jawarisin, Mar 7, 2015.

  1. Jawarisin

    Hi there,

    Aside from loving the infiltrator, I'm a pilot. I see a lot of people complain about how they think "AA is underpowered". As I've said before, it's not only AA to look out for, and AA got huge range, not only that, but it's not half as easy as it looks.

    So in regards to this, I know a lot of players don't want to invest the certs in it, or are not sure what to get. They are just on one end.
    So I wanted to extend an invitation, to make a new character or use a pre-existing one on NC Emerald. And come with me. I'll pull libs, fully certed with whatever weapons. And I'll let anybody who says AA is underpowered try it. Fly it a few times, maybe gun it once.

    I feel like a lot of what makes people think air is OP is because they've never really flown, and if they did, they always blamed the lack of certs in their vehicle for whatever happened.

    So this is a formal invitation to anybody out there who'd say that AA needs a buff. Just come and try it.
    Just post a little message here, and I'll contact you to get this done.

    You can even give some feedback of your experience on this post.
    So how about it?
    • Up x 6
  2. Ballto21

    can you pull me a fully certed reaver dogfighter with a rotary? im trying to prove a non aa related point
  3. Jawarisin

    eh, I guess I can. But this thread is mainly for lib people. But it seems like none of them got the guts to stand up for whatever they say. Though to be fair, most of them probably didn't see the thread yet.

    I'll just keep linking this thread every time someone says something as dumb as AA needs a buff.
  4. Auzor

    Air is OP.
    Lib takes as many lockons to destroy as an mbt, but lacks the vulnerable rear and doesn't need to worry about C4 or tankmines.
    See statistics as to the % of aircraft killed by G2A..
    Yup, AA is UP, and AA needs the range in the current game because of the durability of aircraft, and because AA needs to be able to protect allies from aircraft.

    No I don't fly, and I won't, as I can't put mouseyaw as an option.
    I have once used a lib spawned by someone else; tankbuster solo lib (no-one wanted to pilot in the platoon o_O.. so why pull the lib? No-one wanted to gun with me piloting either. (I wonder why :rolleyes:) )
    Got assists on two lightnings, dealing over 50% damage each
    crashed it trying to gun an infantry dude. (in my defense, it was hossin :p)
    Overall, pretty happy for a "never flown before.. oh crap if I move mouse it rolls"
    Oh, and no-one gunning the belly gun.
    • Up x 11
  5. Jawarisin

    Alright, so come pilot mine. It's fully certed, I'm probably a better gunner than you'll have most of the time.
    Or you can keep admitting you got no clue what you're talking about and cry about it. Otherwise, if you really got the balls to hold what you're saying here, we can pull libs, and I'll record the whole thing. lets say 3-5 libs.

    I'm going to assume we won't last 1 minute in that "invincible" air vehicle.
    As I see it now, you're crying and finding excuses to avoid doing something that would otherwise prove you wrong.
    • Up x 2
  6. ColonelChingles

    I might as well as say, "hey, if you think AA is weak, just try and pull a Skyguard!"

    We don't need to play silly games like this, because we have a wealth of statistics to tell us otherwise.

    The Liberator's Dalton has a 30 day average VKPH from 12.31 to 13.31.

    The Skyguard? 1.86 to 1.94. About 15.1% to 14.6% the effectiveness of a Liberator's Dalton cannon.

    I mean the Liberator TB gets 2.3-2.7 Aircraft KPH... the Shredder shoots down 3.3-4.7 aircraft per hour... and the Dalton destroys 2.3-11.4 aircraft per hour (for some reason the NC just don't use their Dalton for AA duties).

    The Skyguard can only kill about 6.1-7.5 aircraft per hour... which is less than the Dalton (only about 65.8% as effective as the Dalton). And the other Liberator weapons aren't too shabby for what should be mostly A2G work.

    If anything, if you fly around in a Dalton Liberator, you are the AA, not a Skyguard. On average you will be far more effective against vehicles, aircraft, and infantry using a Dalton cannon than you would using a Skyguard.

    And personal experiences can't overcome mountains of statistics captured from thousands of players over thousands of play-hours.
    • Up x 16
  7. Jawarisin

    Sadly yes it can. Here's the problem with what you're saying. People pull skyguards to kill infantry, sometime even other tanks. And you got to realise something: the first target of aircraft is other aircrafts so it's completely normal for liberators to have more air kills. They hunt each other downs as main priority....

    And the dalton "statistics" hell, those are the same few gunners doing all the statistics, not thousands of players. Most players never touch a dalton, and if they do, it's only once. Hell, most players don't even fly.

    So no. But here again, why don't you show us how easy it is to kill everything else. Or maybe just how long you can survive in a liberator, how many aircrafts you could kill? I'm welcoming you to try, your main is NC emerald already.

    Also, as I said before, there's PLENTY OF SOURCES of incoming damage on a liberator, or any aircrafts. The skyguard is one of those. So obviously, it won't always get the last shot, an AP tank shell, a decimator shot, an other aircraft, a lock on, or literally anything that shoot could steal the kill
  8. Liewec123

    how about we invite YOU to show us the huge range of skyguard, or ranger, or bursters, or base turrets.
    the only thing able to even reliably hit an ESF at "huge range" is walker, and don't expect to do anything more than tickle it.

    so go on, pull a skyguard and try shooting down some distant ESFs.
    • Up x 8
  9. Demigan

    This is a formal invitation to you that you can come onto Miller and pull some AA and come with me. I feel you've never used AA and find that any successful kill proves that AA works. The fact that the nose-cannons alone get more aircraft kills than any ground based killer (including the one's that aren't meant for AA such as the Titan) already proves that AA itself just isn't powerful. And we haven't even added the aircraft secondary weapons to the mix...

    As I've already said before, the biggest problem of AA is the fact that it's got 1 system to make hits easier (Flak, lock-ons) and multiple systems to keep it's power in check (larger COF, lock-on time, almost no distance between the skill floor and ceiling, careful power calibration so that any aicraft type can always escape due to the low-skill needed to use AA effectively, which allows any aircraft to escape if they have half a brain etc).

    If we only got skillful AA a lot of the problems would be fixed. If any aircraft can fly over 10 Burster MAX's and 5 Skyguards without ever getting hit by pure skill alone, but on the other side a skillful AA unit could kill ESF without them ever having the option of escape (besides better flying), that would make the complaints on both sides stop almost completely I think.
    Add two types of AA. You got Skyguards which are mainly anti-ESF, change them to have a much much smaller flak range and smaller COF, increase their damage and let them rip through aircraft that hover or fly in straight lines, but have a tough time hitting aircraft that actually try to avoid them. Perhaps reduce their damage against Liberators and other big aircraft because...
    MBT AA primary canons that have a tough time hitting any ESF at all, but can effectively and with incredible power hit and destroy the bigger Aircraft such as Libs, Galaxies and Valkyries.
    For infantry, add a Flak missile rather than the Lock-ons. Does the same damage, fires one missile that explodes near aircraft, has relatively low velocity so it can't snipe long-range aircraft. Add another micro-flak rocket launcher that fires a bunch at high speed. Can be used for longer-range aircraft to keep them away or destroy them if they stick around too long.
    Any lock-on still in the game would need altering anyway to make it fun. Such as slower missile velocity so that aircraft can actually try and force the missile into the ground even when no cover is nearby when it was fired, perhaps even allow people to shoot the missile down similar to Phoenix missiles, and some other changes that could help.
    • Up x 5
  10. Jawarisin

    I've used AA before plenty of times. Not tanks usually though, I hate those things. Maybe because I'm an infiltrator player aside from a pilot, who knows. Hate tanks. Magrider's the only one I can stand (it flies!).

    But you are currently evading the offer because you know I'm right.

    once again, evading the offer

    What you're talking about is an AA overhaul. And while I agree/disagree with some points you made, this is not a thread to debate a better AA system. People mostly just cry that aircrafts are hard to kill, but for SOME MYSTERIOUS REASON they can't live longer than a minute... There's all kinds of reasons they give themselves. "Not a good enough gunner, not well certed enough, not the right gun". All those problems are something I offer to fix.

    But people keep refusing and most will, because they know I am right.

    PS: I hope you know your suggested changes to AA would just make it even worst for ground players. Pilots are usually dedicated players that try to improve, it's already not easy to use an aircraft correctly and produce any results. While AA is extremely easy to produce results with. Most AA players just happen to go in AA, if you put skills in there any more than it is, ground players are going to cry more. Even if you made aircrafts die in 2 shots, if you made it possible by a skilled pilot to avoid shots extremely well, people would cry.

    They want skill-less effectiveness, which is already what they have. but they want more
    • Up x 1
  11. Jawarisin

  12. ColonelChingles

    People most definitely are not pulling Skyguards to kill infantry or tanks... because the Lightning weapon system has much better weapons suited for that. Sure I might engage infantry if they happen to attack me while I'm in my Skyguard, but to pull a skyguard for the sole purpose of attacking infantry is ridiculous. The default Viper which every player has is much better for the job.

    So the first target of Skyguards is other aircraft as well. I fail to see your point. That by itself shouldn't make a difference when comparing Skyguard to Liberator stats. Any difference is mainly a product of the Liberator's weapons and mobility; the Liberator has the DPS to put down enemy aircraft as well as the speed to at keep engaging them for long enough to kill them. Whereas the Skyguard has neither the DPS or speed to kill aircraft within that engagement window (which most pilots would say is by design, as in their view Skyguards aren't meant to kill aircraft but to "deter" them).

    No... those are average statistics. Over all the servers. For example, on Feb 1 you had well over 800 Dalton users. These statistics are captured based on the average performance of all Dalton gunners. It's hardly a "few" pilots getting that KPH, VKPH, or AKPH. I mean if anything due to how averages work, your elite pilots and gunners are actually doing better than the average. ;)

    No point. You don't have to jump off a cliff to know it is hazardous to your health, because there is plenty of data that tells you otherwise. In the same way, I don't have to jump in a Liberator to know that Liberators outperform Skyguards on every metric, because our comprehensive statistics tell us that already.

    Again, I could ask that people jump in a Skyguard and see how many aircraft they can kill. But it would be a pointless activity for a number of reasons. First, one personal experience cannot refute as much broadly collected data as the OoD offers. Second, most likely a new player well perform well below the average player, and so even then such an experience is not representative of how strong an average Skyguard is at all. Third, a random lark in a Skyguard will in no way show what an expereinced user who has reached the skill ceiling can do.

    For all those reasons, if I were to propose that people take the Skyguard for a spin to show how weak it was, it would be absurd. Equally absurd as your offer to have them try out a Liberator.

    I can say the same about a Liberator. It doesn't operate in a vacuum either. I've had plenty of times when a Liberator has gotten me down to half health, and then some other vulture vehicle follows the plume of smoke to nail my Skyguard. Or that I've been C4'd when exchanging fire with a Liberator. I mean the Liberator can even steal kills from itself... in the old "TB them then a single Dalton" trick that 1/3 Liberators are so fond of pulling. There's nothing unique about the Liberator in this regard, at least nothing that would affect the statistics in a meaningful way.
    • Up x 6
  13. Demigan

    So you want to prove that AA is OP by letting people who claim they never flew with aircraft fly one, which you know will go badly purely because aircraft are tough to fly at the beginning (due to the no mouseyaw for instance).
    You might as well pull some players who never played FPS's before and let them run around as Heavies to prove how OP every other class is, and ignore all the statistics surrounding them that show that the Heavy is the easiest and strongest shocktrooper, which is the way most people play. "spawn, rush in, kill/be killed, respawn".


    You hypocrite. (

    Seriously, "pull Skyguards to attack infantry"? You are better off taking Basilisk Flashes rather than a Skyguard when engaging infantry. You really never used that thing before, did you? Oh don't worry, I just looked up your two characters, and put together they have about 2 hours of playtime on the Lightning. You got 8 kills total with bursters (and no second burster bought on either), and not a single AA lock on. You have no experience with using AA. But you claim to know all about it because "you got shot by it".
    Well, we AA users have been shooting and getting shot at by aircraft for 2 and a half years now, longer for the beta players. And a ton of us have lots of experience with flying aircraft as well. And I say, along with others who have been on boths sides, that AA is UP. It needs changing.

    As for "the first target for aircraft is other aircraft". You do realize why that is right? When we are doing any aircraft training with Oh So Pretty we always hear the same reason: "first go for other aircraft, they pose a much more potent threat"

    You don't realize this is an incredbile reason why it does mean that the Dalton is much better? Despite having a low dedicated playerbase, the anti ground vehicle based Dalton kills more aircraft per hour than the AA dedicated Skyguard.
    I've touched the Dalton a few times, it was a wonderful feast every time where I could kill vehicle after vehicle, we needed multiple reloads each time before they finally got us, and every time we could kill multiple tanks and occasionally some aircraft. That's not balance!

    There's plenty of sources for the Liberator, there's tons more for every single ground vehicle, and almost every single weapon is a threat to infantry.
    • Up x 5
  14. Jawarisin

    goo gash, that's a lot to reply to. Let's get to it.
    For simplicity's sake, I'll just answer to each paragraph in a paragraph of my own, separated by "========". Going in order, top to bottom.
    You'd be surprised, just yesterday I happened on a group of 3 skyguards shredding just everything in sight. Kind of like a vulcan. So yes they do.
    Yes of course, if I just fly-by on a destination to who knows where, I'll loose half my hp, but unless there's no cover whatsoever or I'm flying too low, I'll make it on the other side alive and with half or so of my HP (more or less depending on altitude/cover). But the same could be said of a harasser. But you're welcome to come pilot my lib and try to shoot down other aircrafts.
    Exactly, 90% of those 800 dalton users only touched it once. The stats are HEAVILY padded by extremely skilled gunners who do it over and over. The average doesn't mean much in this case.
    Cmon just try it, don't avoid it. What's the WORST that could happen?
    The skyguard is an extremely low skill-ceiling vehicle, anybody can do it, literally. At very long range, there's some leading required, granted. But that's only at extreme range where you don't even render for the aircraft. It can effectively NOT FIGHT BACK. It can't even see you actually.
    People make it sound like the vehicle is way overpowered. If it was, anybody could get SOME results with it. I'm not talking about amazing results, but anybody should be able to do "something" right? Even the most mediocre of skyguards will get some results.
    Most players simply never flew and make comments about it, so I'm offering a remedy to it right now. Try it!
    Liberators are of a more "bursty" kind, there's way less chances for a liberator to get kill stolen than for anything on the ground. You also got to consider that the liberator is in visual/shooting range of anything that can look up slightly, even if only barely - as long as it has some distance. The skyguard/other tank is usually safe on one side, and has enemies ahead. It's way more linear, there's not as many people that have the possibility to shoot you.

    I can put a player (me) that literally probably don't have more than 5 hours in a tank in a skyguard, and I'll still perform "ok" or get some kind of results (I've used one before). So a lib should be the same, without having amazing results, why dont YOU show me results. Not expecting anything amazing, but you should be able to do "Something" right?
    I've used AA turrets quite a bit actually. And yes I do have a lock on.... Look at my NC character, it's the Hawk for heavies. And I use it whenever I want to clear the skies. It works wonders, easy of use and deadly effective.
    The reason aircrafts are a more potent threats is they can tail each other down, and if you get hit by AA at ALL, that aircraft can easily finish you off and steal the kill. You need to engage it before some ridicoulous AA decides that you are one too many aircraft.
    Come try my lib!
    No actually, since the stats are biased they are closer to what elites get than what the actual average skill level is. And if you are adamant about what you are saying, how about I pull a dalton lib and you gun it I'll record it all. And you don't have to worry, my editing skills are non existent as you can see in my most recent videos. I went to look at your stats, and yeah, I don't see any of that amazing dalton looking stats you were talking about. Prove me wrong? Come try my lib!
    Also, I don't think you understand, the concept of vkph is how much is the average vkph WHEN ONE IS PULLED not overall on the continent. You missunderstand the stats there mate.
    Yeah infantry have it rough, I did play infantry a lot though, and I dare say I am quite good at it. But no, tanks have way less potential threats simply because the number of things that can be watching them is way lower.
    They are usually surrounded by friendly, a little at the back or ahead with friendlies right behind. Liberators can get attacked on any side, there's no "safe" side.
  15. LIKE A BOSS!

    Out of all the time being on these forums I've learned two things. There will always be bads that complain about infiltrators being OP. And there will always be a bad complaining about air even though he has probably died 3x as much to tanks. And I'm not even a pilot.
    • Up x 1
  16. Demigan

    I'm not evading your offer, I have already flown Liberators, I have flown ESF, I have flown Galaxies and even used a Vlakyrie from tiem to time. I have also used AA, which despite your claim you haven't done.

    You know, you are still a hypocrite, you tell us to come and play with you based on a scheme where you know we'll not perform ("let's get some inexperienced players into aircraft and prove this was that it's hard, but ignore the one's that claim to already have the experience and debunk you")
    We know you are completely and absolutely wrong. We have multiple sites (Dasanfall, Oracle of Death) that already show how every single player in the game performs overall. But because these sites overwhelmingly show you that you are wrong these are "not conform what experience shows" or whatever kind of crap argument you thought off to make you sleep better when you ignore all those statistics.

    As for my AA changes being worst for ground players. Quite the opposite. it would finally allow skilled AA players to kill aircraft, while skilled aircraft can try to avoid it and survive. This is nothing different that for any other battle (infantry vs tanks, lightnings vs MBT's, infantry class vs other infantry class).
    It's quite... strange that you don't want buffs for AA, but when I come up with an idea that will not overpower AA despite getting more damage per shot, you disagree? Allright, so my idea would make AA too low-powered. How about you show me an improvement on my idea? If you think this will make it UP, what improvements would you put into my idea to make it neither OP nor UP, but balanced? That's what I'm after. If you can improve my idea, please do! If you come up with a better idea, the whole discussion above can be forgotten and it doesn't matter which one of us is right.
    • Up x 2
  17. Jawarisin

    I'm not going to bother replying to the first part, because I already did, as for the second part:
    No, pilots are WAY more skilled and dedicated than an AA gunner. That's the problem. On one side, the AA is usually held by casuals, while pilots are more hardcore gamers. Which one do you think's going to maximise on it if it becomes a skill battle field?
  18. Jawarisin

    haha ^^ Well, you're also welcome to my lib even it's just for s** and giggles.
  19. Liewec123

    i have about 30 clips of my skywhale effortlessly crushing skyguards, so i think i'm fine to talk about the effectiveness of "skyguard" at guarding the skies.
    and thats solo galaxy, you're talking about trying the powerhouse that is a maxed out dalton lib,
    maybe even with a bulldog for extra pewpew?
    why bother trying to even pretend a skyguard stands a chance?

    disclaimer, i have 53 hours of galaxy time, 29 hours of reaver, 10 hours of lib so thats 92 hours in the air. and thats just my main,
    i have a vanu alt who i played almost exclusively for Scythe and magrider.
    i've taken my fair share of AA. even back when striker ruled the skies.
    • Up x 7
  20. Jawarisin

    You mean the most durable vehicle in the game, made to transport 12 players, couldn't be instagibbed by a skyguard? I'm extremely surprised...
    Here once again, come in my lib, just try it.

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