Anti-Air: Easy or Not?

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by Abraham with Cheese, Aug 31, 2015.

  1. Silkensmooth

    No skyguard is already very effective.

    Accuracy rates dont mean anything.

    Totally different weapons, and ESF pilots arent shooting at things 1km away. Hornets dont even travel 1km they just disapear at 500 meters. Oh the same thing flak should do imagine that.

    Also there are very VERY few skyguard pilots who dont spend clip after clip trying to shoot planes at render range.

    Hornets require the ESF to remain stationary while also having the inherent weakness of being the 3rd most visible unit in the game after galaxy and liberator. If another ESF comes along while you are hovering with hornets you WILL die very badly.

    Skyguards get to hide on the ground, typically far behind enemy lines where they are safe from enemy tanks. They get to use covor to keep them safe from air, if they are skilled.

    Another reason that skyguard pilots have low accuracy is the type of player who pilots a skyguard. Typically a skyguard pilot is someone who hates air, but isnt good enough at ps2 to play every role that they need to be effective so they don't fly. Most of the really good players either just get in a plane and go kill the ESF that killed them, or the really good ones dumbfire you.

    So the less skilled players are the players who would resort to a cheesy weapon like skyguard, hence the lower accuracy.

    In contrast flying in PS2 is quite a difficult thing. It takes fortitude to learn. It is extremely frustrating for EVERYONE when they begin. I used to tell my friends that flying was the best way to commit suicide.

    So someone that is using Hornets is probably going to be a better player than someone who uses a skyguard.

    And id like to add that my depiction of skyguard pilots is mainly true, although there are good players who use them who just pwn. Nevarc is one of them.

    And you always say that air shouldnt counter air, but you know what is the only way to kill a GOOD skyguard pilot? Yep another tank. Trying to kill a GOOD skyguard pilot with an ESF, or even a bad one is just sheer folly, and it is silly of you to say otherwise.

    You go get your hornets on chingles, ill get in my skyguard and you come take me out.
  2. ScrapyardBob

    I'm always amused by those complaints.

    With medals, the daily bonuses and the fact that you get XP just for damaging enemy aircraft, you can make a very good SPH off of AA duty. The best weapons for it, however, are not the lock-on rockets, but the AA turrets / AA Burster MAX / Skyguard. Very easy to get 30-40k in that first hour of gameplay if you pick a good fight and have your daily bonuses to burn.

    For the burster MAX - don't pull one and stand out in the middle of nowhere. Stay close to cover / friendly support / spawn rooms and retreat if you start taking damage. If it's a tower, use the multiple exits to your advantage and don't stay in one spot for more then 10-15 seconds before moving to another spot.

    AA turrets - are generally death traps, useful in a pinch, but expect it to be destroyed frequently.

    Skyguards work best 200-400m away from the fight. Far enough back from the frontline that you're not taking fire from enemy armor, but close enough that you can light up ESFs / Libs that are making attack runs.

    As with all everything, if you're after kills, then you need to pick and choose your targets. Go after the ones that are already smoking. Try to position yourself so you can hit them as they retreat back to friendly territory. Personally, I don't bother worrying about kills and focus more on deterrence. Soft kills count in my book. If you can force enemy aircraft away from the battlefield, it gives your aircraft room to assist in the fight.
  3. CorporationUSA

    This is so true. I have probably been killed by dumbfires more times than skyguards and flak while attacking the ground. The good players know they get a one-shot kill on ESFs with a decimator, so why even bother with a deterrent? I respect that.
  4. Alox

    Where are you getting those numbers from? Oracle of death seems to have the Dalton at around 25 KPH, the skyguard at around 8 KPH, the ESF nosegun at around 50 KPH and rocket pods at around 80 KPH. The AA max is about 7 KPH (summing both arms). AA remains the most unrewarding activity (besides idling).
  5. Taemien

    You might have a point there.

    I suggested a few times over the last year on how to make the Skyguard a better vehicle. It would be harder to use, but its damage would be scary and I mean really scary.. to the point where any Aircraft that saw it would be like "nope!" and bug out before it looked at them. However.. the skill needed would have been similar to that of a ESF in lining up shots. It also wouldn't make Skyguards stupidly OP in mass numbers, not anymore than using AA/ESFs in mass numbers.

    But.. no one liked the idea and they threw a fit that I would even suggest such changes to the weapon. They wanted to keep it easy and mediocre. But basically it was lowering the RPM, lowering the Velocity, and increasing the damage. So harder to use, but way more rewarding and much more likely to get the kill, instead of the deterrent.

    But bads want to stay bad. I mean they really do NOT want to get better. They want to stay where they are so they can call themselves casual and keep playing the victim card.
  6. ColonelChingles

    Oracle of Death, Monthly Weapon Stats, Avg A. KPH.

    Avg A. KPH looks at how many aircraft are killed per hour of use. KPH is usually a measure of how many infantry are killed per hour of use.
  7. Silkensmooth

    I personally dont like the idea of a ground based weapon that can kill ESf before they can flee due to the fact that they are nearly impossible to see whereas the ESF is obviously extremely easy to see.

    I would much rather just see nerfs to A2G. It's silly.

    Why should ESF be able to just farm the ground?

    I've done plenty of it and its just dumb.

    Whats just as dumb as that G2A is more effective against A2A fighters due to the way they battle high above the ground in an attemp to avoid crashing into trees.

    A2G pilots just chuckle when the beeping starts and dodge over the nearby hill while the A2A pilot trying to kill the farmers is at the mercy of every noob on the ground who is irate at the ground pounders and takes it out on the a2a pilots.

    You would think people would get behind suggestions that make it easier for A2A pilots to operate. Things like making flak explode only on ESf running A2G loadouts which would include AI noseguns, rocket pods, hornets and maybe even coyotes which are actually pretty good at killing infantry.

    I also think that all locks should be striker style locks. The G2A locks that are currently in game are almost completely useless at killing A2G farmers but are om fg op against A2A pilots flying by out of infatry render range or engaged in dogfights.

    Of course there wouldnt be huge sales of bad-for-the-game weapons if things were balanced properly.
  8. Casterbridge

    This is one of the reasons I like the Striker over the regular G2A launcher, I don't care about 2 ESF duking it out, I only care about those attacking ground units.
  9. Taemien

    Why not? Carbines and LMGs do it to other infantry. Rotaries do it do other ESFs.

    I dunno where you're getting this idea that Lightnings are hard to see, that big flat square is easier to see than MBTs. I've never had an issue with it. The ones I have an issue with is Burster MAXes.. usually behind spawn shields.
  10. Silkensmooth

    Why not because a well placed lightning that has camo and isnt sitting on top of a totaly clear hill is much harder to see than an ESF flying 300 meters above the ground.

    Nothing wrong with infantry killing infantry and rotaries killing ESF because both take skill.

    If you beat me at infantry, especially repeatedlly, it is because you are better than me.

    If you sneak up cause im pounding the ground and pwn me with a rotary, thats my fault, and it requires skill to do that.

    If you just gank me because i happen to fly too close thats not cool.

    The major difference is that when you kill me as infantry i had every chance to kill you. I have the ABILITY to kill you even if i dont have the skill.

    When you burn me down with a rotary i had every chance not to hover and to pay attention to what is around me.

    If the skyguard and the ESF were equals then it would be different. I personally think that if you want to kill things you should have to put yourself at risk to that thing.

    Currently unless you are really bad at the game you arent going to die to an ESF in a skyguard.

    So you already have a situation where the skyguard will win every single time if the ESF doesnt run away. If you buff skyguard to the point that ESF cant even run away then there is absolutely no place for air in the game.

    Already air is completely superfluous to the game. I know i wouldnt bother flying in a game like that. Already it is pretty unfun to fly near any major battle.
  11. Taemien

    I haven't even disclosed the numbers and you're making alot of assumptions. The only thing I said is the Skyguard would take more skill to use and would be more rewarding when you get hits, those hits would of course be harder to obtain.

    You see the problem is the Skyguard is too easy to use right now. And it is in a weak state because of that. In addition, it is frustrating to for the user and the ESFs:

    1. Frustrating for the user because by itself, it can't get a kill.

    2. Frustrating for the ESF pilot because 3 of them in an area makes the area denied to them.

    My idea would be so that an ESF pilot could enter an area with more than one and make through alive.. if skilled enough. In addition a sole Skyguard user could get a ESF kill if skilled enough. It also means that a ESF and Skyguard that are aware of each other can engage in a duel of sorts. Where the best skill wins, and not attrition.

    Of course a Skyguard that catches an ESF with its pants down would probably kill it or severely hurt it. But so does a MBT with an AP or HEAT round. My suggestion would have a remarkably slower TTK than that.

    The idea is, an ESF can ignore a group of Skyguards.. IF they are skilled enough at dodging the shots. This has the after effect of making them unable to get precision shots in. They have a choice to engage and maybe get blown up, or back out and work on the Skyguards. Right now there is no choice, if its one Skyguard, just ignore it and take the damage. If its two, you have to leave, no engagement at all. And ironically those two Skyguard drivers, despite being an asset to their team, are coming to complain because they didn't get the kill.

    I'll throw the numbers I gave a while back, they're not perfect but they give an idea of where I was going:

    360 RPM
    250m/s Velocity
    100 damage before 100m
    75 damage after 300m
    330 indirect damage
    10m flak

    Skyguard does 210-260 damage total right now. My suggestion would increase it to 405-430 almost a 100% increase in damage.
    Skyguard has RPM of 480. My suggestion would reduce this to 360. A 25% reduction to account for more damage. Roughly turns out to be a 33% reduction in TTK.
    Skyguard has a velocity of 400m/s. My suggestion would lower this to 250m/s. Again to make it require that you lead the shots.
    Skyguard flak explodes at 6m. My suggestion would up it to 10m, this would make the shots a bit more forgiving since I just about gutted the velocity.

    End result (numbers aren't perfect by any means, but this is what I want to have happen at the end of the day), Skyguard is harder to use. But the flak explosion will wreck a ESF's day if they don't fly evasively and try to ignore it. In addition Liberators and Galaxies are now threatened by a solo Lightning. Many times a Lib will actually outright ignore one or two Lightnings and tank the damage as they make a pass. Can't do that with these changes. Galaxies can't simply tank the damage either, though a full speed Gal drop will still be viable unless there is 2-3 or more Skyguards prepared.. but then they have a chance to knock down the Galaxy before it drops, right now they don't.

    Side effect. Two well hidden stealth Skyguards have a chance to gib an ESF before they can 180 and get out of there. But I see this as acceptable because its a 2v1 situation. And it would take coordination and setup to do so. In addition there is a trick that ESF's can do (one that I do anyway) and that is to fly over the target area at 1k height. Turn around once in enemy territory and do a from behind high speed pass (works really good with Breaker Rockets or Airhammer). Even the changed Skyguard won't be able to react fast enough and chances are they won't even know what happened. The good news is, only infantry die from this, can't quite get enough DPS on a vehicle to kill it before you pass them. Even with Hornets (unless they're damaged already). Again I don't see this as an issue since the ESF is effectively doing a surprise attack.
  12. ColonelChingles

    Another tank is not another Skyguard. ;) Saying that the counter to a Skyguard is another Skyguard is silly... but AP tanks exist outside of the classification of a Skyguard.


    Sure... I'll just fly to the other side of the map. Have fun looking for me. :D

    And if/when you manage to go about 4km to the other side of the map that I'm at, I'll simply fly off to the other side. Have fun traveling 4km back!

    I think that will be an excellent lesson in exactly how useless a Skyguard is. You won't get to kill me unless I let you do so.
  13. Imp C Bravo

    Disingenuous answer 1. It does not apply to what he said as it has nothing to do with the fact that if there are 2 or 3 skyguards in a tank column, it would be suicide to attack them as air and said skyguards will need to be taken out by tank/harasser/sundy. For comparison purposes a valk with a guided missile doesn't counter air -- but it is still air. It would be silly to say that it didn't count as air. Saying a lightning that counters air doesn't count as armor because it doesn't counter ground is equally silly.

    Disingenuous answer 2. Skyguards aren't designed to hunt down air. They are designed to force off or kill air that come to mess with their friendlies on the ground. The inability to travel across the map is completely unrelated to what he said as planes are useless if they are not killing ground forces (outside of the gal/valk drop -- also counterable by skyguards) and must go to "the fight" just like everyone else. Skyguards dont HAVE to be able to chase air as the air has to come to them or stay out of the fight completely. You know this.