Another NC Max Post

Because the NC MAX is only used in situations where it will succeed almost unquestionably, but the TR and VS pull MAXes and fight at ranges where they can succeed but cannot guarantee kills.

Theories sure, but they are based in logic and the numbers do support them. The existence of the Striker we can be fairly confident is reducing the number of AA MAX the TR pulls, at least to some degree. The TR also likely pull more AV MAXes because the Pounder is still very effective against infantry akin to how the Falcon is/was used as an AI weapon at times in the past. (Pounders make up the majority of the two possible TR AV MAX weapons).

We can safely say the platform isn't the limiting factor given the numbers for the other weapon's usage rates, and given the nature of man and the tactless competitive setting of PS2 I think we can also rule out that players are holding off from pulling more NC MAXes because they are more effective. People love to spam the cheesiest things they can and do so whenever given the chance. In my opinion the only reason why the NC's AI weapons would see lower usage yet score higher is for the reason I've outlined. See above post regarding the OP-as-**** auto-shotgun for extra details.

The shield does synergize well with the NC's constant reloads, but as an actual defensive tool it's not very great. If the user doesn't plan on shooting at all for a while it's nice but for combat outside of reloading it doesn't serve much practical purpose. Also the shield doesn't cover the feet or C4 (allegedly) and only covers the front of the MAX.

It all really comes down to what one considers balanced. I argue the NC Max is too good in its niche role. Other argue that because a role is so niche, it's acceptable for it to over-perform in that role. Air Locks vs Libs are an example of a niche weapon that goes too far. The same for Ranger Harassers. Same with the Archer in the past. It's a rock-paper-scissors approach that I hate. It creates hard counters where the fight is determined much more so by what weapons people hold, than the people holding the weapon. It's just not what I'd prefer to see in a fps.

The numbers tell us the VS/TR pull more stock versions of their MAX (default arms being AI/AV).
Once you look at the number of AI/AI armed MAX units you notice the numbers leveling out.

But he is not wrong in saying VS/TR pull more of them, just that the difference is made up of stock MAX suits. The interesting part is when you start looking at performance data because that is where the NC MAX starts to pull ahead.

It isn't just KDR but looking at the average amount of kills of a Hacksaw MAX versus other AI arms. To say it is significantly higher is an understatement. 2nd place is the Mattocks. The reason why kills are important because it debunks the myth the MAX is too situational and thus less impactful. It would actually suggest that close range lethality is the most statistically important since, well, it is... Not exactly a bad thing to be situationally adapted to the most relevant situation, is it?

Would be kind of cool if the MAX slugs could go through one target and wound at half damage though, just to sweeten the deal and get some NC to embrace the glory of the slug. #SlugLyfe #FreedomSlugs (or maybe I just want to improve my style of freedom ).

Know what? I've been seeing plenty of vets pull mixed Maxes. I've started running nothing but dual pounders, simply because it's the only thing that matches an NC Max. But it gives up most of your AI capability. A stock loadout might be as good as it gets for TR. VS can at least rely on headshots with their accuracy. But then you're stuck with a 425 rpm crappy LMG. This **** is so unbalanced.

before CAI nerfed pounders AI capabilities they were anti-everything,
as long as there were ammo packs around then you had no reason to run anything else,
the splash made them like carrying a marauder and the AV dmg was incredible too, they were just a winwin,
so obviously they had to lose some of their AI potential. (unfortunately, because i used to run them elusively too)

you say you're stuck with a 425rpm lmg but when you're talking about nc max you seem to talk about both arms.
so really you should be saying you have an insane and accurate 850rpm LMG,
with a ttk of 564ms and 150 round mag and fast reloads.
sounds like a pretty damn sexy LMG to me.

about your "so unbalanced" comment,
you know that this game is asymmetrically balanced right?
i agree that NC have the best of the 3 maxes, and why is that balanced?
because VS and TR have the best of other things,
take AA for example TR have exclusive access to the best nanite-free AA in the game,
it really gives them a huge advantage over NC and VS when it comes to the air game.
and that is FINE, because each faction get their unique toys which give them strength that the other factions don't have.
but for some reason, when it comes to the NCs unique toys people just want it all burnt to the ground.
vanguard shield, gone, phoenix, nerf!, max, KILL IT!
i see the occasional vulcan thread but nothing really comes close to the amount of nerf threads i see
(or saw before vanguard shield was destroyed) for NC.

Mercies are just slightly more accurate than Mattockses. It's suicide to hip fire any LMG with that sort of accuracy. And I meant 400 rpm because my other arm would be a nearly worthless Pounder against everything by Maxes.

And no one is asking for NC's toys to be burned to the ground. Just to be balanced. I play NC too. It's my favorite faction. There are just a few things here and there on every faction that need some tuning. Even as a TR main, I argued for a Striker nerf, and its current 450m range seems to have set things about right. I'd like to see a Magrider cannon buff, a Zoe fix, some tweets to the Lancer and Phoenix, a bloom reduction on 125 guns, the old Gatekeeper mechanic, the old Enforcer mechanic, power knife sounds equalized, better attachments for the new TR BR and smg, a better starting LMG for NC..... I try hard to look at these things from every perspective, reworked AI noseguns, and I just see zero excuse for the NC Max.

The comparison with sniper rifles is misplaced, it's a whole different story and there was no reason at all to bring that up. Statistics themselves about sniper rifles don't show any discrepancies either, like they do with MAX weapons in an exemplary fashion.

Again, you insist on the same speculations that are not proven by anything and the statistics don't lead you in any way to a logical conclusion for them to be valid.As I stated, MAXes have a certain role that fits them and this role is the same for all factions. Every faction pulls a MAX for the same reason, using them in the same situations and the rest is speculation. That being said, the NC MAX AI weapons are not more situational than the others (they have literally almost the same effective range with the others), nor are the other two using the MAXes in a radically different way. You make it all up to suit your biased logic. So this leads us to the logical conclusion without speculations and based on statistics that NC MAXes are much more effective than the other two in what they do.

I am not sure what you are really trying to prove with this pic of yours, if anything it does not prove much.

Needless to say, that I checked your character and you have only a single kill with Scattercannon. You don't play MAX at all and possibly you have not been on the receiving end either. That explains a lot! This is one of the reasons you might be so oblivious in this matter. How can you argue about it and say anything?? It's pointless and there is really nothing you can say...

Educate yourself just a little bit with this vid because it proves a lot:

This is actually quite correct. Based on everything I have seen while playing, the dual pounders are the closest the TR get to a truly competitive MAX.

VS get the short stick here, since they can't really re-purpose an AV weapon for AI reliably. Though they do get arguably better AI tools then the TR do.

In general, the math, logic, and practice all seem work out to the same end conclusion; the NC MAX is performing best. It's viable, and even strong at times. I can't really say the same about the TR or VS MAX suits.

Plus, MAX duels are an absolute joke. NC are dominating those in a big way.

I agree it's really just a matter of opinion at this point, but obviously I don't share the opinion. I still wouldn't call it over-performing though, at least not due to the weapons themselves. If they are over-performing it would be almost entirely due to the base platform in my opinion. Auto-shotguns are over-performing in their niche, they need to be nerf'd to the point where they are not the best CQC infantry weapon in the game, but if the two MAX shotguns (whichever pairing) was given to regular infantry I doubt the could ever pull the same performance stats.

I do agree that it would be better for skill to be the determining factor in an engagement, but there are just too many weapons which by design don't allow for that. Anything from half-decent shotguns to HE shells to AI noseguns. Sometimes a counter needs to exist if the countered does too.

Both sniper rifles and shotguns are excellent in their ideal ranges yet are practically useless outside them. Both can very very powerful in the right hands.

My theories match the data perfectly. Why else would something seemingly so powerful be used less then than something less so if it were not an overly niche weapon?

You say I don't have data backing me up yet claim every faction pulls MAXes for the same reason despite the fact that every faction has a different loadout. Low-capacity shotguns are not the same as high-capacity machine guns, they provide different strengths for different situations.

The point of the screenshot is obvious, is it not? Auto-shotguns are super overpowered in my opinion and the fact that I could kill more than double almost everyone else in the fight with one demonstrates that, and yet auto-shotguns are rarely used. This is an example of a niche weapon which while very powerful sees little use. "Coincidentally," it's a shotgun just like an NC MAX's AI guns are. See the reasoning here?

Heh, yep. Only time I have ever pulled my stock MAX was because it was my turn to be the rumble-seat MAX in a trio harasser crew. Big surprise how that ended. Regardless you ought to know then that I don't have a particular bias for the NC's MAX, as I don't ever use it. The effectiveness is almost entirely irrelevant to me, from a gameplay perspective.

Hilariously enough however, I have been on the receiving end of an NC MAX as my NC character many times. I've even actively fought a few as if they were legitimate enemies. I've also fought and killed and died with NC MAXes as a TR on my alt. Makes no difference in short range which colour it is and outside that range one can backpedal while chain-headshoting the blue ones.

I think I have seen this exact same video posted to these forums probably ten times. Veteran forumsiders such as myself ought to make it a drinking game with how much it's posted here.

The video is dated and the events occur prior to the first announcement and subsequent "fix" of the hitbox edits. I'll tell you exactly what I tell everyone else: If you think the contents of the video depict a realistic usage of an NC MAX, go ahead and replicate the video. If the NC MAX is really so amazing it should be trivial.

All these counters to counters are just ****. It's absurd that you keep saying things like you can just "back peddle" and beat an NC Max with headshots from a rifle.... I've heard some absurd things around here, but that one really takes the cake. It's really like you're in some alternate dimension. I'd like rifles posing a decent threat to be true, but even at 30 meters against shotguns, 1 or 2 guys with rifles just don't stand a chance. If they did, then we could give charge back, give Maxes better auto repair of some sort. Basically lessen the gap between Maxes and infantry. Maybe their cost would have to be adjusted. Bring more skill in to the equation, instead of just having a Max rush wiping every point hold, or some single noob with an AI Max ending a good small fight. All that **** is just bad, no two ways about it.

its just part of the asymmetrical balance,
when one small part of the game is looked at isolated from the rest it can seem overpower or underpowered,
there is no reason for VS to be the only ones with a potent splash weapon, or tr to have vastly superior AA, (for example)
but the game as a whole feels rather balanced because all 3 factions have unique things that make them strong in certain regards.

if i'm in a hallway i'd least want to bump into an nc max,
if i'm in an esf i'd least want to fly around tr, from fear of strikers,
if i'm driving in an open field i'd least want to fight VS because of the ease at which lancer can shoot moving vehicles.

Leave him be.

Don't try to reason with our delusional NC fella over here...

nc max is disgustingly overperforming.

I'm pretty sure stats will prove it all.

Hey, all the more reason to cut cheesy stuff from the game! Counters don't have to exist if the countered doesn't either. Won't catch me complaining at least.

Have you ever tried it? I think I kill more MAXes with small arms fire than dumbfires or explosives. They're so big just holding down the trigger on their face will still net more hits than misses even if it means mostly bodyshots. Not to mention 30 shots to the head is usually enough to kill anyway, if they haven't ran off at half health.

Charge was a very bad idea, all it did was let MAXes cut out the ranges where they weren't as powerful and then let them run away when things got too close. Emergency repair isn't great either while I'm at it. Players should be punished for over-engaging, not have a press-F to heal button, especially when they're supposed to be relying on support.

In my opinion, MAXes should lose almost all of their lethality and get larger magazines and more health. (Not resistances, heath and repair times). Make MAXes a support utility rather than a one-man army used to spam small fights and pad kill ratios.

Sure, go ahead and not respond to my arguments. That'll sure show me how wrong I am!

balanced

I already did...

Have a good day!

That looks to be about what I would expect honestly.

Just a casual 60% ( ish) advantage.

Hit the nail on the head right there.

Shotguns, in my opinion are fine because there is a risk-reward element involved in that style of play. You get instagib capability but if you miss your first blast, your target will turn around and kill you dead.

NC MAXes get to keep the instakill capability while also having higher fire rate, magazine capacity and 80% resistance to small arms fire. No wonder they are broken.

Here's one that was uploaded 2 days ago:

The implication of the statement is for the person to try to achieve the results themselves, thus either proving the claim or learning first-hand that the claim is false.

Regardless, the video does not challenge the claim. The claim in this case being made is not that shoguns kill people, it's that they don't have very long effective ranges. Obviously, they are good at killing in close range. The video uploaded depicts the NC MAX being used a much longer ranges than it can actually OHK at.

In the video you have provided, the vast majority of the player's kills are in short range, and in the few longer range kills he does get are on targets already wounded and/or being shot by his allies at the same time. On top of that, it'a a montage of the player's presumably best kills and streaks, whereas the older video is of a single long unedited usage of a single MAX.

At the 4:20 mark, he unloads and misses almost every shot, a total of 14 slugs fired before killing a single light assault. There is nothing in the video to suggest the NC MAX is effective at range.