Another NC Max Post

Maxes in general are **** for this game. NC Maxes are the worst offenders. Giving TR and VS shotguns is a step backwards.

But then you can as well just delete those other guns cause nobody will really use anything but shotguns. At least not with their current stats. That aside I think for all those NC that claim that shotguns on MAXes are not OP I think we should rather switch weapons and give them a few months of their own medicine. Let them try to "snipe people from long range" with a blueshift and integrated suicide glow while TR and VS blow them to bits with shotguns and hide behind shields. After that they will never talk like that again... ;-)

How about we all just use NS gorgons? Then everyone has the same weapon.

That's the obvious point. Something is literally overpowered when no one in their right mind would possibly choose its competitor. Look at every single other thing in this game. I prefer the GD-7F, but I admit I like the accuracy and range of the Lynx. I prefer the Vanguard, but the Prowler does offer more speed and dps, while the Mag is by far the most versatile. They Scythe is the best ESF, but the Mossy is better against multiple threats and the Reaver is the fastest and can kill the quickest. Maxes? No question about it, NC all day every day, without question.

All maxes should be more tanks to enter in crowded rooms, with less effective AI capability and way more effectiveness against vehicles /air

One of the main issues is that the primary combat arenas in the game are extreme close range fights. All the fights that mater are around points which are generally inside buildings with short sight lines. Biolabs are simply the distilled extreme of this phenomenon. Sure, there are engagements where the sustained damage of VS and TR autoguns is arguably superior, but those fights are considerably rarer and usually happen in places that have no direct tactical or strategic importance. In the space between two bases during a foot-zerg, for example. It's fun, but it's pointless. And in ranges where a chaingun MAX would be superior and have actual capability to hit, the NC MAX can close the distance and still out-damage even without the shield.

And also, I would like to remind that the NS Gorgon exists. Sure it has sub-par fire rate of 300RPM, but the damage type means you do almost twice as much damage to maxes then listed, can also damage vehicles, is slightly more accurate then TR chainguns and has no damage drop-off. NC already have access to the next best thing (or situationally better) to TR and VS AI weaponry and I can honestly say Gorgon NC MAXs are rare enough to be a barely proven myth. I've seen them! But they're considerably rarer then halloween pumpkins or winter snowmen in a 96+ fight.

I don't agree, I actually feel that the shotguns are the worst and are easily the least threatening in the vast majority of encounters. If nothing else, we'd see which guns are the most popular.

I do agree that MAXes are poorly balanced in their current state against infantry. In my opinion they should be made more defensive and provide more of a support role rather than a Heavy Assault 2.0.

As I've said above I really disagree. People always call shotguns "the best" or "overpowered" or whatever yet seem to entirely discredit the other two factions' MAX guns. The obvious fact that we see considerably less NC MAXes than either TR or VS MAXes is telling.

Funny, I was sort of thinking the exact same thing on the flip side. Just like the MAW silencing cries of the Anchor people pulling shotguns and not really being any more effective ought to settle things once and for all. Or, maybe the opposite and we all see how great shotguns truly are.

Also I'm not suggesting universal abilities, gotta keep something empire-specific.

Not entirely and not always. Not to mention the spaces surrounding small indoor areas. But regardless, TR's and VS' MAX guns also do best in shorter ranges. Biolabs aren't actually entirely close quarters either, there are just as many if not more mid-long range firing lanes where MAXes and especially shotguns don't do well at all. In fact, the variety of terrain and engagement types in biolabs is what makes them my favorite type of base to play in.

The sustained-fire capabilities are always better against larger groups of enemies, where a MAX enters a crowed point room in a rush with other infantry, or when holding a point room, or when engaging enemies one after the other. Shotguns offer a marginal TTK advantage possibility but spend more time reloading than firing and have minimal range.

The Gorgon often goes entirely unnoticed when selecting a MAX arm because it's almost entirely redundant. TR or VS machine guns will slaughter a Gorgon as will shotguns even at range. Against vehicles any other AV MAX weapon would be superior and often still better against infantry *cough cough* Pounders *cough*. Gorgons aren't very good.

You have your theories, but I call the NC Max OP not only based on my time spent on all three factions, but also the numbers. You think NC Maxes aren't pulled as often because they're not as useful, but I doubt you have any evidence to back that up. You disagree with Mac shotguns being overpowered, but all the stats show otherwise. Seriously, spend some time on Dasanfall. The Mattocks outperforms anything the VS or TR offer by 25%. That's including k/d, score per hour, accuracy, kills per hour.... Everything. Meanwhile, NS weapons are nearly identical, including busters, even though Zoe and Lock down pair great with them in spawn rooms. So please, look at the data and reconsider your theories about how good shotguns on Maxes actually are, especially combined with that shield.

You are right. Personally, I stop just short of saying the NC MAX is OP in general, but... I would be lying through my teeth if I were to say anything short of the NC MAX outperforms it's contemporaries, and is the only properly viable MAX suit.

My long standing opinion has been to get ZOE and lockdown up to a competitive point with the shield, and to deal with the absurdity that is currently C4 towards MAX suits.

Heck, at this point, with the way C4 is behaving and the general MAX balance, I think bringing back original ZOE for the VS wouldn't be a bad idea.

oh believe me, the signature was no accident, i switched to it to annoy the max haters in this thread

though i do the same thing with other weapons that didn't cost 450 nanites.
MCG, lasher or even an auto shotty!
(hell, a single c4 can kill way more people than that hallway, all in an instant!)
it is a rare occurrence to find a perfect clump of clueless enemies, but it does happen!

MAXes aren't really fun to play against, which imo is more important than which one is statistically better. Either you pull out the c4, or you step back and someone else pulls out the c4. Or you get cornered/caught in the open and die.
(Also I virtually never play as a MAX so I can't comment on how fun they are to play as)

Maybe focus them more around their abilities than guns?

And that is where you are clearly lying. There is NOTHING in this game that could wipe an entire staircase in less than 2 seconds without of giving the enemy ANY real chance to fire back(had nothing to do with being clueless. You just can't react when an NC MAX shows up right in front of you). In their case the only option would have been 2 heavies with rocket launchers ready waiting...or a C4 already planted before the attack(but that would have been an ambush).All others guns would either not have enough fire power(and often ammunition) to do something like that in such a short time. C4 would have killed the first 2...maybe...but given that C4 does not detonate instanly anymore the they might have killed you before detonating in that situation. C4 can kill entire groups but you are very vulnerable(so you don't run around with it without of knowing what is behind the next corner) and usually you need your target to be busy/distracted.

Stop making things up...we all know the truth.

Ya' know, I'm not the only one with access to Dasanfall here. Stop making me always do all the work, what is this, a group project?

MAX weapons by usage:

AI:

• NC left = 9768 --- NC right = 7784 --- Total AI = 17,552
• TR left = 11,700 --- TR right = 8840 --- Total AI = 20,540
• VS left = 11,045 --- VS right = 7856 --- Total AI = 18,901

AV:

• NC left = 4123 --- NC right = 5174 --- Total AV = 9297
• TR left = 5511 --- TR right = 6768 --- Total AV = 12,279
• VS left = 3468 --- VS right = 4974 --- Total AV = 8442

Bursters (Standard):

• NC left = 1706 --- NC right = 1953 --- Total = 3659
• TR left = 1328 --- TR right = 1595 --- Total = 2923
• VS left = 1706 --- VS right = 1953 --- Total = 3659

Gorgons (Standard):

• NC left = 625 --- NC right = 604 --- Total = 1229
• TR left = 290 --- TR right = 300 --- Total = 590
• VS left = 419 --- VS right = 422 --- Total = 841

Totals:

• NC left = 16,222 --- NC right = 15,515 --- Total = 31,737
• TR left = 18,829 --- TR right = 17,503 --- Total = 36,332
• VS left = 16,638 --- VS right = 15,205 --- Total = 31,843
• NC AI left + NC AV right = 14,942
• NC AV left + NC AI right = 11,907
• TR AI left + TR AV right = 18,468
• TR AV left + TR AI right = 14,351
• VS AI left + VS AV right = 15,998
• VS AV left + VS AI right = 11,324

Source: http://stats.dasanfall.com/ps2/items/weapons

Well colour me a calm steel-blue because I am the exact opposite of surprised. As expected the NC uses a noticeably lower number of AI MAXes while pulling roughly double the Gorgon MAXes. And we know the NC pulls a similar number of MAXes in general because the number of burster MAXes is virtually identical to those of the VS while pulling more AV MAXes than the VS does.

It's almost as if the NC's AI MAXes are too situational to be used in the majority of situations and only used when in close quarters, where literally any AI MAX could perform just as well.

The NC MAX only scores higher because it is only used where it can do well, whereas the TR and VS pulls MAXes more and takes them outside of their ideal effective ranges where MAXes in general are less likely to succeed. My theories still stand, the numbers suggest a forcibly-tactical usage on shotguns which is not seen with Gorgons or Bursters and less so with Ravens especially. This fits perfectly with what I have suggested.

As Liewec has stated, (I think), the shield isn't as useful as many players believe as it cannot protect from immediate damage and must be activated prior to actual use.

When factoring in the secondary arm you also see the number of AI MAX units leveling out greatly, i.e. when the MAX isn't pulled by a newbie or fresh alt. The fact remains, NC AI weapons perform really well despite their limitations which suggests the NC MAX can overcome them (skill, using cover, shield, slugs, support, etc). Especially compared to their counter-parts.

I never really expected Gorgons to be such popular with VS but when looking the really low AV usage it makes sense again. The low burster MAX usage for TR also makes sense 'cause Striker.

Right, you’re in a fight against overpop nubs as TR then an ANTM nub pulls his scatmax. My friend walks past the corner, dead before he even knows it. He calls out NC MAX and as I run up the stairs about 20 metres plus away from the max he 2 shots me, WTF!

Simple, as cyrious suggested let MAXs dominate the open fields but in base fights, this stuff is just cancerous. This game seriously needs this, it’s one of the worst issues. It’s not just NC MAXs( although the others are also cancerous )

Either remove them since they take pretty much no skill if you’ve got an engie, or make them much larger and not able to get in bases , simple

Balance at its finest

Same player, much less kill potential but still pretty damn scary to fight against

"though i do the same thing with other weapons that didn't cost 450 nanites."

how many die in my sig? maybe 5?
here i walk up a staircase mowing enemies down with lasher, 7 kills, no aiming required!
didn't cost a single nanite, let alone the price of an MBT/lib like a max costs.
i am planning on doing a big compilation of clips like this because it happens a lot with lasher.

My fellow NC smurf, if you think you "always do all the work" let me help you a bit, because I believe we have some issues here. Since you like using numbers and stats, at least you should go all the way with it and do it right if you will. Don't make assumptions along the way that are also unrealistic trying to justify your biased point of view or if you wanna call them arguments.

Saying that TR and VS use their MAXes out of their ideal effective ranges while NC players don't do that is a completely ridiculous and unrealistc assumption to say the least. You can't base that on anything! I don't see often TR or VS MAXes hanging around in a plain field trying to shoot at targets that are in longer ranges or generally trying to shoot targets that are 100m far. If I see them it's rare and it doesn't happen more often than a NC MAX. MAXes have certain roles and are given specific weapons for that. Nothing suggests "forcibly-tactical usage", it is all false speculation. The effective ranges of the NC MAXes is the same with the others but you are obviously not willing to accept such a self-evident thing so let it go, because you will argue for days for a thing you already know but won't admit for obvious reasons. The reason you see Gorgons being used by NC more than the other two factions is because they don't have another automatic weapon, so they use the Gorgon for variety, for something different or even for fun. And that is to be expected. It is something many NC players asked for and they got it. I could make a lot of assumptions and they would be realistic, but as I said since you like stats let's keep it that way.

If you read closely what adam was trying to tell you, maybe you would understand. But I think you are cherry-picking once again. Let me give you some interesting stats from your beloved dasanfall.

Here we have the KDR for MAX AI weapons from each faction. Let's take a look shall we?

MAX AI weapon KDR statistics:

NC:
-Mattock(left) = 2.685
-Mattock(right) = 2.775
-Grinder(left) = 2.139
-Grinder(right) = 2.006
-Hacksaw(left) = 2.135
-Hacksaw(right) = 2.193
-Scattercannon(left) = 1.514
-Scattercannon(right) =2.279

VS:
-Cosmos(left) = 1.66
-Cosmos(right) = 1.782
-Blueshift(left) = 2.102
-Blueshift(right) = 2.087
-Nebula(left) = 1.906
-Nebula(right) = 1.927
-Quasar(left) = 1.376
-Quasar(right) = 1.967

TR:
-Heavy Cycler(left) = 1.179
-Heavy Cycler(right) = 1.572
-Mutilator(left) = 1.496
-Mutilator(right) = 1.501
-Onslaught(left) = 1.909
-Onslaught(right) = 1.861
-Mercy(left) = 1.827
-Mercy(right) = 1.804

MAX AI weapon KDR average:

NC = 2.157
VS = 1.850
TR = 1.643

The statistics clearly prove how much more effective the NC MAX AI weapons are. The comparison with TR MAX AI weapons shows there is a big gap overall. Personally, I neither want nor I need NC shotguns. I can still deal with NC MAXes in an efficient way.

Your theories are invalid and they don't really make sense because you try too hard. You end up making weak arguments. Just don't be so defensive all the time.

The claim was that the NC pulls less MAXes, which can only really be proven by usage stats. Sure I could have added in a bunch of other stats, but you saw how much space it took just to list the usages. (And then promptly wasted forum space by posting it again in my quote.) The NC's higher stats such as KDR is largely already known, so I'm not disputing or displaying it. What I am disputing is the cited reason for why the NC MAX is able to achieve the numbers it does. I.E., I don't think the NC MAX is overpowered, I think it's very situational.

Same thing applies to sniper rifles. Even though they aren't necessarily the best or worst weapons for any given range they tend to do very well in terms of KDR because they sit in a niche largely untouchable by other infantry weapons. Snipers do so poorly in ranges outside their ideal settings they are seldom used if at all unless at long range.

Likewise this also applies to shotguns and MAX shotguns, where they are poor outside their very short effective ranges and see very little use even in generally shorter ranges compared to the other classes of weapon. Auto-shotguns are overpowered in my opinion, yet often they are not the right choice for the vast majority of engagements and base layouts. But if defending a tower with the A point below the spawn nothing short of a small army can stop one.

Shotguns are powerful, except when they aren't. I bring my SAW/class equivalent into CQC more often than any shotgun, yet I'll never do so well without one. But put me and two shotguns on a point room 10x10 meters wide and give me a massive damage resistance and an extra 1000 heath and I'll only be stronger, yet the moment I leave I'd be better off with my SAW. Hence why I say give everyone a set of shotguns and a set of machine guns and let the player choose between extra power or range and versatility.

But K/D clearly shows that other AI Maxes don't perform as well.

These are nothing but theories. It makes sense that TR pulls less bursters because of the Striker, but it could also be because a single lockdown burster pulls double duty. I think NC has the best rifles, which could mean that they pull less AI Maxes because they don't need them. One could also argue that they pull less because they can succeed with fewer. TR pulling more AV Maxes could be because they have an anti-aircraft faction specific launcher, or because their MBT could be too weak.

My whole point is that you shouldn't draw such solid conclusions from usage numbers. Pulling fewer AI Maxes could mean anything from that platform being not worth pulling, to that platform being so good that more aren't needed. Based on the K/D and score?hour statistics, I'm leaning towards that unit being so good that more simply aren't needed.

That shield really is icing on the cake, and pairs perfectly with NC weapons. NC guns have the highest dps, which they quickly dump, but the lowest damage per mag, meaning lots of reloads. It's the exact same formula as the Reaver. In theory, total dps against TR should balance out, but the shield throws a wrench in things because every time an NC Max is reloading he's basically invincible. What you're left with are these windows to shoot an NC Max where you're guaranteed to take more damage than you can dish out.