Another NC Max Post

Discussion in 'PlanetSide 2 Gameplay Discussion' started by adamts01, Oct 24, 2018.

  1. Pacster3

    Na, just the typical NC forum poster. Their MAX was broken for years but they sold us the "but it got crappy range...and this and that and that and that of VS is much more broken"-argument all the time.
    • Up x 1
  2. Zearthling

    Then I invite those players to try standing in front of either factions other MAX units with ZOE on....
  3. Zearthling

    I also still invite them to drive their Sunderer in front of a G30-Vulcan. Same effect.
  4. JibbaJabba

    Not even gonna again.

    BUT.. some tips on killing them:

    They are Maxes. The common stuff applies of course... C4 and rockets. Take out the softies first (engies, medics). Concussions and flashes are nice, but smoke..

    NC maxes are ever so slightly more vulnerable in smoke because the shield can be seen if used.

    Listen for the gun rhythm. Sure it might be while the NC Max is massacring your friends in the next room, but listen. NC Max drivers like to go to full empty before the reload. You'll learn the cadence of the loads and when they'll be in the middle of one. **The reloads are frequent and long**. Use it to help with timing so you don't end up point blank with a reloaded one.

    Most will shield up when reloading. So lets talk the shield:

    First appreciate that it's a big blinking sign that says, "I won't fire right now". Yes it drops fast, but not instantly.

    Do not bother trying to drop it. It can be done with focus fire but isn't worth the hassle.
    Grenade or rocket splash behind them or at nearby walls. They will track the blinky red dot of a grenade like a squirrel. When they turn shield, fire.
    If they are dead on facing you, the feet are the only thing exposed. Don't shoot the little viewing port either, dummy.
    They will expose something... some flank. Split from teammates, the shield can't face both. Get elevation, get headshots.
    **Take your time** Be mindful of supporting infantry, but the Maxes can't fire when the shield is up so take your aim.

    Dropping the shield is an animation and they can't fire before it completes. Stay near cover and watch for it.

    Use shield time to do your own relocation. Distance is hilariously in your favor past 30m.

    Beyond that and you can reach cover when your own shield drops. Your shield recharges. Max health doesn't. You can literally work them down. A slug mattock will make you pay for not strafing, but once outside their lethal range you can stay there.
  5. Zearthling

    You just haven't been in the firing line of a NC MAX very often. I can tell by the way you talk. Try it sometime. With ZOE on a VS MAX even.
    • Up x 1
  6. adamts01

    Of course they can be killed, not a single person has argued otherwise. The argument is that they're leagues better than the other factions' counterparts.

    Honestly, what other imbalance in this game comes even close to the NC Max? You're a pretty reasonable guy so I'd like to hear it.

    I'd say the Striker is possibly a very distant 2nd. The Vulcan had a recent time in the spotlight until today's nerf, but the MJ has been there, as well as the Gatekeeper and Saron. The Lasher and Phoenix offer very powerful and unique abilities to those factions, but the only thing broken about one of them is because of spawn room mechanics, not the weapon. The Scythe and Vanguard are pretty unbalanced, but nowhere near as unbalanced as NC's Max.

    As a longstanding problem, I don't think anything else in the game holds a candle to NC's Maxes.
    • Up x 2
  7. Zearthling

    Today's Nerf... that isn't actually live yet. So we don't really know for sure if it is or not an effective balance measure. It's going to take time, about a week, to notice if it is better balanced by stats.
    • Up x 1
  8. Zearthling

    Eh... who cares about any of this anyway. By the sounds of some of the things I hear:
    Planetside 3 is coming soon and it will be a Battle Royal, and we will all be wearing faction color swim trunks and bikini tops and the only weapon will be the Summer Directive Soldier Soaker while we all fight on a single and more "modern" continent (Oshur?)!

    I know, it sounds hilarious but it is about what I have come to expect as well. Just saying.
  9. Villanuk

    While your correct in what your saying, you know full well its is not as simplistic as you say. One does not merely fly free with C4 to take out a Max., certainly not in the Bio Lab, where if anyone is honest, its a beast.
    That said. like most items in this game, its situational, but i would be inclined to reduce its volume of ammo, or certainly reduce its range further, to be inline with what a shotty should be, short and power-full.
  10. iller

    Yeah but you're just highlighting a much larger philosophical problem that applies to the Forum ALL the time (IE: making a mountain out of moe hill with an issue that wasn't even in the top 10 of worst balance issues for the first couple years of the game) ... where as Shotguns on a MAX suit (which were nerfed twice already over this game's life time) only applies to a tiny % of combat scenarios that were also largely remedied with most base overhauls expanding the Interiors and not having every single objective on the second floor up a narrow staircase in a claustrophobic bullet proof bungalow...

    and don't try to back out this b/c you Started it with the #NotAll distinction. Point being: Where does this slippery slope end?
    I'll also remind you that you were on-record for saying the game's TTK isn't FAST ENOUGH... It's odd to actually see you look at some Data somewhere that has has all context removed from the niche scenarios it was created under; and then go "Oh well that TTK is TOO fast b/c I think the people who are doing it are icky!"

    Side note: I don't think the Archer actually does this anymore. I distinctly remember doing this a dozen times with it Before the CombinedArms patch.... but everytime I've hit MAXes lately with it and gotten that big juicy Circled-X + Sound Effect, I just see their health drop by only 16.67%. Phoenix still deals a ton of damage to them but the Archer feels frankly nerfed into the GROUND ever since I came back and tried using it again. (I used to kill Lightning Tanks with that thing.. now I can't even kill most Flashes with it)

    Edit: Consensus found:
  11. iller

    There has to be a Threshold where everything is just "sorta unbalanced" or only situationally unbalanced. We're not in that era anymore where 100's of kills are being racked up in every Hex of 48-96 occupancy with 1 faction spamming the same FOTM over and over.

    Raising the Klaxons (alarms) over faction imbalances these days just reads as Fake News
    • Up x 1
  12. Taris26

    Okay i never said it was only the NC max that is broken. Every Max is broken right now but NC max is on top of them because in cqc nx max will absolutly kill you. there is no chance to react if you see him it is already too late. With VS and TR maxes you can react because of their lower time to kill. So NC max is most annoying i think lot of people would agree with this. But you still defend it why? Just give people a chance to counter and it already would be "better". If i Play NC i see a lot more Maxes around me why is that and really it feels good to have them on my side. While TR und VS maxes feel more balanced.
  13. Kristan

    Yesterday I've tried out NC MAX. I had to grind a bit to unlock the second Scattercannon. Armor slots and the rest are at best at lvl1, since my NC char was BR9 by that moment. While I experienced the greatest downside of NC MAX - low ammo per mag and slow reload, killing people was pretty easy. I wouldn't say I did oneshot them always, but the second shot mostly sealed the deal. And then I collected some certs to get slugs... One of the easiest kills I ever had as a MAX. Much easier were only with TR Onslaughts in a tiny confined corridor.
  14. csvfr

    The shield is a placebo gimmick for AI fighting anyhow
    • too slow to equip to protect against unexpected damage
    • adds a delay before you can fire again
    • doesn't work against C4
    • why not use natural cover instead
    Emergency repair is 10 times more useful.
    On a different note, the NC max's advantage CQC is compensated for by the inferiority of the other classes and weapon arsenal.
  15. Makora

    Honestly... I think the biggest problem that the devs did was to go to this conceptually interesting but garbage to balance idea of separating the arm guns. Or using two guns at all!

    I get WHY they did it. MAX's visually had that set up, it's a homage. Chainguns, Bursters, Pounders. Everthing were visually wrist mounter guns. But they came in pairs. You couldn't mix and match like we can now. Making each gun a viable weapon on it's own would of completely broken the game and we see that for a FACT with the NC MAX's. Their guns are just slightly worse then normal infantry version but not to the degree that TR and VS weapons are. And we see the effect of that. Imagine, if you could, if the standard M1 Heavy Cycler (143 dmg and base) of the TR fired 600 rounds a minute. It would still be sub-par as far as TR LMG's go, but that change alone would make the TR MAX a force to be reckoned with but not entirely OP (can't ADS, piss poor hipfire accuracy, subpar damage profile for that volume of fire). BUT, if you were to pair it up, then the max would be broken. 143 damage at 1200 RPM would be ludicrous even if the accuracy remained at the current shotgun spread values.

    If there were a rework, the extremes that some (me included) would want to see would be near impossible. Some of those weapons were bought with cash, some with certs. The investments of unlocks and all that. That is the same reason they can't just "Remove MAX from game!" because MONEY is involved. Transactions going back YEARS. Cosmetics, weapons, TIME.

    How to Rework MAX weaponry then.
    Option 1 is to buff a single weapon to be viable as a standalone weapon on a MAX. A heavy, powerful cannon worthy of being on a mechanized suit of death. But you can't pair them up. You can only have one weapon of a type equipped. So you HAVE to run one AI and one AV/AA weapon combo because you can't pair them up. Doesn't mater what arm, as long as it is on ONE arm.
    Option 2 is to forcefully put in the paired system as in PS1. Anyone with just one weapon gets a pair and that's that. Anyone who has both arms, gets the unlocks of one arm refunded (mag size and slugs) and something shiny for that weapon given as a cookie. Problem is with people who bought with real money, a can of worms that is a bit too twitchy. But the pair essentially functions as a single, fully viable weapon. The whole split on two arms deal is entirely cosmetic. But we also lose the customization and versatility (however theoretical) of the current system.
    Option 3 is to tweak the current weapons so they are functional, if a bit underpowered and then essentially forgotten in favor of a new set of weapons that are just sliiightly superior so everyone quietly moves away from the old two-arm weapons in favor of more empire specific options, with single weapons needing two hands to use for the TR (and common pool) and weird alien designs for VS. Think more along the lines of the power armor and chainguns from FO4. This also allows for multiple designs with high volume supression weapons being like hipfire miniguns or the like that you can't ADS but have high damage potential, coupled with designs that are essentially upscaled infantry weapons that you can ADS with that rewards finesse and accuracy over sheer volume. This is sort of my favorite.

    The current weapon loadout system works thematically on the NC because the NC MAX is just a retrofit heavy work exo suit, covered in armor with two cannons MacGyvered to it. VS MAX is essentially a combat armor project that failed for standard use because it was too expensive to make and was instead improvised to counter the NC MAX (who came first, BTW) and the TR MAX was the product of a dedicated development project with the explicit design intent of countering the NC and VS equivalents. There is no reason other then thematic ties to PS1 to have the two-gun system on TR and VS.
    So a proper redesign would mean that NC keeps their jury-rigged appearance of the two-gun system. Good versatility, great in close range. TR instead would move to single dedicated weapon systems, meant to either provide inaccurate high volume fire (maybe needing the lockdown to use?) or accurate long range fire. And VS does the weird VS thing, maybe with homing rounds, damage over time effects or just with better mobility.

    Ultimately the biggest mistake that SOE made back in the day with this game was giving us infinite certs. In that regard PS1 for all its faults had that one thing going for it. You could only be meh at many things, or you could choose to be great at one thing at the expense of other things. If an effective MAX was at the end of an expensive cert line that meant you had to sacrifice using basically anything other then the most basic equipment outside of it, then no one would complain about MAX's because that dude put in the EFFORT to be a stomping mech of doom and nothing else and there aren't many of them around. Same with ESF pilots and tankers. Those vehicles could of been much more powerful if access to them meant specializing in them, making them less common by proxy and thus the issues of swarms of them being considerably less prevalent. In theory, that is.

    In the end, at the very least and on a slightly lighter note, I just want a Heavy Assault Rifle for my TR MAX. As if someone took a Kobalt or a Basilisk off of a Flash, rigged it with a grip matching the MAX's hands and issued it out as an upgrade. The damn weapons have IRONSIGHTS in the third person models! Half the work is there. This is all I want, just a weapon other then the Pounder I could hit an infantryman with beyond 20m.
  16. Liewec123

    great tips, but the people here don't care about ways to kill the max, they just want to cry for nerfs.

    its the same thing that happened with vanguard shield, we explained that all they had to do was stay near cover, and when the vanguard popped shield they can just duck behind the cover for 6 seconds to completely negate the effects of shield,
    but NOPE! these people just want to herpderp their way to victory,
    rolling their faces on the keyboard bumper to bumper against vanguard.

    its the same thing here, sure they could pull c4 or a decimator and deal with the max,
    but instead they want to throw their hands up in the air in surrender, call it an impossible task and cry for a nerf.
  17. Trigga

    Well he isnt right, NC get 2 semi auto shotguns that can fire at once, neither one of them can 1 shot kill.
    Dual wielding isnt the same as having 1 weapon.

    Moving the goal posts wont make me wrong.
    Although i care not for a max v max balance discusion for the billionth got boring a very, very long time ago tbh.
    The devs already know our opinions, ideas have been given many times, good ideas, nothing changes.
    This whole thread is a carbon copy of recent similarly themed threads.

    Non of this changes the fact that as it stands in game, i am correct, you can apply all the warped theoretical logic to it you want.
    Lets not start exagerating just to prove a point, makes the entire forums look like whinning school kids without an ability to thoroughly evaluate a situation. This is probably the reason, as mentioned above, the devs dont take anything said around here seriously. Pretty sure theyve said as much in the past, albeit different words used.

    I think its silly, as mentioned above, to exagerate your claim to suit your agenda.
    Discredits your point imo, but eh, carry on, im sure the devs will listen sometime.
    Good luck over the next 6 years of your campain.
  18. Trigga

    Great post, pretty much what has been repeated to the devs since we first saw the max during BETA.
    Youd think some1 would have listened in 6 years huh...

    Although id point out it was only the TR max in PS1 that had dual wielded weapons, the NC and VS did not.
    This was of course to add more faction flavour to the game, more guns means more bullets.
    The empries felt so different on PS1 when playing them, or fighting against them. Was awesome.

    Personally id like to see them move to single arm weapons, but give the second arm a shield like NC have now.
    All MAXs should be balanced to the current meta theyre used for.
  19. FateJH

    Only the PlanetSide Classic TR MAX had paired wrist weaponry. The NC MAX and the VS MAX were both sigle-arm weapons. Making the NC and VS adhere to this design was just SOE being lazy and deteriorating faction features, as was the choice to give everyone Bursters (originally, TR MAX exclusive). They didn't even have to compromise like this if they really weanted to allow for "dual weapons." Just swap the single arm weapon out for a different one in the same way you'd swap to your pistol (just not as fast).
    It's a theory, yes. In choosing PlanetSide Classic as the model for this, however, I have to disagree profusely. The theory that PlanetSide's customization system forced one into niches is a horrible conceit to be delusioned and I say that as a veteran of the original game.

    First, you can always be great at many things and, especially as Infantry, have a solution for any situation that might come up. The point was that someone just took some of their resources and said "I'll have a mechanized assault exo-suit" in reserve. This is not different from having Special Assault but only occasionally pulling out that Rocklet Rifle. At 3 certs per suit (2 certs for AA variant), the MAX was essentially just another weapon cert with an exosuit cert rolled into the package that may or may not get pulled. Or Armoed Assault 2 (which was 3 cert cost too - 2 for Lightning and 1 for MBT), and never really pulling the MBT for anything but jolly cooperation.

    Second, this customization roadblock was only fairly noticeable at lower battle ranks. As soon as you had enough certs to throw around, the pressure of living with hard choices evaporated. If you were a good enough player, hard choices weren't even a problem in the first place since you already knew how to utilize your equipment respond to any problem without breaking a sweat. The MAX is really no different in that regard.

    Third, as the developers started throwing around package deals more and more, and then expanded to BR40 from BR24, it was far more viable as time went on to have a dabble of everything to work with. This whittled away making hard cert choices even further.
  20. pnkdth

    What I saw was a list of things I don't need to do in order to fight TR/VS MAX units. Plus the usual exaggeration of how short the NC MAX range is (even with slugs now apparently), weird how the range keeps shrinking for every thread. His tips would be useful in a 1-12 fight where the MAX is without support and you're able to switch classes without much effort. The second you start adding in more infantry and MAX units the more unreasonable the request is to sit and listen to firing patterns or being able to track animations.

    Fact is, NC is the only faction with an ability which synergizes with their weaponry and lends itself well to engineer support. The TR got an ability which makes them easy targets and the VS activates a "KILL ME NOW PLZ"-sign.

    You misunderstood the comparison. You're currently arguing against no one other than the point that was never made, e.g. a single scatter cannon arm can instantly kill.